Verstappen vs Leclerc - Overtake Fair or Foul?

[David Faraday]

What the hell has happened to racing that anyone thinks this is unfair? Perfect block pass. Gets his car on the inside, gets it stopped and turns in. Job done. LeClerc should have realised that once Verstappen was up the inside the corner was lost and backed out, trying to drive it around the outside and gettting himself tagged is just stupid. Put a gravel trap there and he wouldnt have dared to keep his foot in, so to speak. Far to many "rules" these days, why actually race when you can just moan to the stewards instead? Those boys need to man up. I can't really be bothered to watch F1 much anymore, its become pathetic.

 

[RichardHessels]

What the hell has happened to racing that anyone thinks this is unfair? Perfect block pass. Gets his car on the inside, gets it stopped and turns in. Job done. LeClerc should have realised that once Verstappen was up the inside the corner was lost and backed out, trying to drive it around the outside and gettting himself tagged is just stupid. Put a gravel trap there and he wouldnt have dared to keep his foot in, so to speak. Far to many "rules" these days, why actually race when you can just moan to the stewards instead? Those boys need to man up. I can't really be bothered to watch F1 much anymore, its become pathetic.

The intro picture of this thread says it all. Even when you take account of the perspective.
Anyway the fastest and most heroïc driver won the race in the end. Had a blast looking at this guy overtaking the field in his "lesser" machine.

 

[motoliser]

Some people just come here and talk nonsense. Saying Max is heroic and brave just makes me puke! Obviously these people dont know sh#t about F1. Again he deserved to win but that was all. Daniel Ric is way better than him and he would have crossed the line earlier and in a much more interesting way to watch!! Horner and RedBull can die!!!

 

[Copef1]

I honestly don't know what video you guys are watching. At the 1:59 mark Villeneuve bangs wheels, from behind with Arnoux, and forces him off the track. Then again at 2:07 Villeneuve turns down on Arnoux going into the corner they touch, and Arnoux is forced over the curb, with Villeneuve being forced wide. Not to mention both of them dive bomb each other going into turn 1 earlier in the race. I don't see how this contact is any different than what happened with Charles, and Max.
I do know this though, if this video of Villeneuve and Arnoux had happened last weekend there would be a bunch of Villeneuve fan boys on here crying for a penalty against Arnoux, and a bunch of Arnoux fan boys on here calling for a penalty against Villeneuve. Its hilarious to read through this thread and see all the twisted logic. Its fine to have your favorite drivers, and its even fine to hate one of the drivers like so many here do with Max and Lewis, but at least try to be a little bit objective.

 

[Kakusso]

In conclusion:
You can race online hard and respectfully with half of this thread population.
Regarding the other half, if you are side by side on the outside of a turn, don't expect them to slow down a bit to make a tighter turn in order to avoid hitting you. They will hit you and consider it a racing incident.
In reality they don't really care about others when trying to reach their goal. Hopefully good will always triumph over evil.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

I honestly don't know what video you guys are watching. At the 1:59 mark Villeneuve bangs wheels, from behind with Arnoux, and forces him off the track. Then again at 2:07 Villeneuve turns down on Arnoux going into the corner they touch, and Arnoux is forced over the curb, with Villeneuve being forced wide. Not to mention both of them dive bomb each other going into turn 1 earlier in the race. I don't see how this contact is any different than what happened with Charles, and Max.
I do know this though, if this video of Villeneuve and Arnoux had happened last weekend there would be a bunch of Villeneuve fan boys on here crying for a penalty against Arnoux, and a bunch of Arnoux fan boys on here calling for a penalty against Villeneuve. Its hilarious to read through this thread and see all the twisted logic. Its fine to have your favorite drivers, and its even fine to hate one of the drivers like so many here do with Max and Lewis, but at least try to be a little bit objective.

I'm gonna ask you the same. The contact(if there are any) before Arnoux goes off the track, is in the right hander, T1 - they are side by side with Arnoux attacking. So that's not Villeneuve from behind. The corner where Arnoux goes off, that's no contact there is it?
When Villeneuve turns on, at most Arnoux have 2 wheels on the kerb. It's not pretty, but no harm done - and Villeneuve are the one losing out (also, if Villeneuve turns on, and forces Arnoux low, how can he in turn be forced wide?)
Dive bombs? While they are late, they both manage to keep the cars on the inside of the corner, it's not a desperate in the sense that it forces the other driver to take avoiding action or run off. The worst one there is after Villeneuve have run wide, and attacks in to a right hander, going out to the middle of the track. Still though, plenty of space all around.

You don't see the difference from that, and one driver just not giving space to another?

 

[Miwwa]

He was pushed wide this happens in all forms of motorsports. I see no issue let the drives race.

 

[Easty]

Max is just a dirty driver. I noticed that he had a bit more steering lock after he pushed Leclerc off the road.
All this penalty stuff lately is just getting out of hand. Dishing out 5 sec here 10 sec there for bugger all , then a driver with a history of dodgy driving gets a free pass.
Folding to the pressure of grand stands full of Dutch fans.

 

[Steve Worrell]

I'm actually a little conflicted about this now. My first reaction was it's fair. No I look at it over and over. How is it different to what happened to seb and Lewis in Canada. If two drivers are side by side can you squeeze a driver off the track? Wall or no wall?

 

[RasmusP]

I'm actually a little conflicted about this now. My first reaction was it's fair. No I look at it over and over. How is it different to what happened to seb and Lewis in Canada. If two drivers are side by side can you squeeze a driver off the track? Wall or no wall?

If you have your army of ultras with you, seems so yeah..

 

[Edivad82]

Fortunately Senna, Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Montoya have not raced with this F1.

 

[Gringo]

How is it different to what happened to seb and Lewis in Canada.

It really is two very different incident. In Canada VET lost control and left the circuit, then after regaining control, VET rejoined the track in an unsafe manner (that is HAM was forced to avoid a collision). Austria incident is different in the sense that both drivers were in control at all times and both cars were within the track limits (untill LEC was forced to avoid a collision).

Of course there is more detail in each decision, but in general the main differences leading to the stewards determinations.

VER move was very risky in that similar incidents were penalized in the past. If you go by the book his pass was "illegal", and the stewards indeed seemed to have a weak argument for not penalizing VET in my opinion.

In the end I guess you need to take the whole race into consideration, VER did in fact have a great race, and likely could have passed LEC cleanly at some point. So I agree with the final race result.

It seems impossible to completely regulate the sport and still keep the intense racing alive. In that case I am willing to ignore a bit of adversity and try to keep the penalties to a minimum.

 

[Luke Maney]

@Luke Maney Max did a dive bomb, he even missed completly the apex. And of course feel to give your opinion why Magnussen got a 5 sec penalty in Hungary 2017? he did the same thing as Max, side by side, and leaving no space for a car in the outside. There is only diference, Max had no control of is line because the dive bomb LecLerc, and Magnussen had control of his line. To me both of them pushed the opponent outside the track.

Paulo the apex is not the correct line for this corner...it is wide like max drove it.

 

[RasmusP]

untill LEC was forced to avoid a collision).

Just to mention the little detail, while agreeing overall:
He didn't avoid the collision. His car was knocked off.
You can see it in the slow motion in the official F1 Youtube Video. His inside front jumped quite a few cm into the air and the whole car got turned towards the outside.
Not that it would make any difference, but he didn't avoid anything, he was forced into a new direction by brute impact.

Also afaik Vettels penalty document (I might remember it incorrectly) stated, that he already was in control after the borderline okayish rejoin but then actively crowded Hamilton into avoiding action.
That was the problem there. He was back in control when moving so far to the right, after he was not in control for the rejoin.
So it wasn't really about the rejoin (might have been a factor though), it was about crowding Hamilton while being in control.
Good question what would've been happening if Vettel wouldn't have been in control during the crowding...

 

[Appie Kuipers]

off you go now. enjoy the great victory and your champion.

I'm actually a little conflicted about this now. My first reaction was it's fair. No I look at it over and over. How is it different to what happened to seb and Lewis in Canada. If two drivers are side by side can you squeeze a driver off the track? Wall or no wall?

It's not the same, Ham needed to brake there was no space, Leclerc saw Max on the inside, and did steer to the right, and yes you can outbrake an oponent inside a corner, why not? If this is not allowed anymore then F1 is getting a farce more then IT allready is!

 

[Luke Maney]

Paulo the apex is not the correct line for this corner...it is wide like max drove it.

Also I just watched the replay (Youtube) again and its obvious to me that Leclerc realized he left the door open for Max and he closed the door on him causing the collision! Watch the replay and rewind it over and over and you will see it was Leclerc's fault. Leclerc was the one driving defensive and he made an abrupt turn to "slam the door" on Max and in so doing caused the collision!

 

[Appie Kuipers]

YOU LIKE CLEAN RACING GET A SCALEXTRIC RACING TRACK

 

[Appie Kuipers]

Also I just watched the replay (Youtube) again and its obvious to me that Leclerc realized he left the door open for Max and he closed the door on Max causing the collision! Watch the replay and rewind it over and over and you will see it was Leclerc's fault. Leclerc was the one driving defensive and he made an abrupt turn to "slam the door" on Max and in so doing caused the collision, not Max.

Finaly someone who can see clear what happend

 

[Luke Maney]

Max is just a dirty driver. I noticed that he had a bit more steering lock after he pushed Leclerc off the road.
All this penalty stuff lately is just getting out of hand. Dishing out 5 sec here 10 sec there for bugger all , then a driver with a history of dodgy driving gets a free pass.
Folding to the pressure of grand stands full of Dutch fans.

Nope, max is aggressive, not "dirty". Leclerc is at fault, watch the replay over and over and you will see its true.

 

[NewOne0]

- People complain about F1 not being like "the old days", that driving is "too easy/ too safe / not risky enough / too much focus on tyre-managment".
- Yet people - and even drivers like Grosjean - complain about literally every tiny bit of wheel-to-wheel racing.

You guys are responsible for the sport you get. I'm thankful that drivers like Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen exist who always go for the gap. As long as they don't crash their opponent out of the race, let them drive.