Verstappen vs Leclerc - Overtake Fair or Foul?

[keto95]

Like a driver said on Twitter if the run off was grass Lec would recognize he was beaten way earlier and the contact would not happen but since it's asphalt drivers can just let it happen and throw it at the stewards later

Maybe Leclerc took a wider line to have more momentum on the next straight to stay ahead on Verstappen like 1 lap earlier?

However, I do agree to bring back the grass/gravel/sand traps and many situations will see a different outcome.

 

[Will Mazeo]

And Vestappen was trying to prevent exactly that lol
It was some good hard racing, we need more of those. And some grass because if Lec went off and crashed oh boy... that would be a big drama we'd be talking for the next 10 years

 

[RasmusP]

And Vestappen was trying to prevent exactly that lol
It was some good hard racing, we need more of those. And some grass because if Lec went off and crashed oh boy... that would be a big drama we'd be talking for the next 10 years

What we need more of is the lap before that push. Hard and sportsmanlike side by side racing throughout multiple corners.
Not one corner = battle over

 

[keto95]

And Vestappen was trying to prevent exactly that lol

That doesn't give him the right to push Leclerc off track.
The racing takes place inside the white lines, not beyound.

 

[Will Mazeo]

What we need more of is the lap before that push. Hard and sportsmanlike side by side racing throughout multiple corners.
Not one corner = battle over

Removing the DRS would help with that

That doesn't give him the right to push Leclerc off track.

That's just your opinion, mine is different, in my view he didnt push. To me he was preventing Lec from going to his inside next corner

 

[keto95]

That's just your opinion, mine is different, in my view he didnt push.

Nope, that's regulation. "Forcing an opponent off track and gaining an advantage" is not allowed. There's contact between both cars caused by Verstappen forcing Leclerc to take a wider liner than necessary. That's 'pushing'.

 

[RasmusP]

Removing the DRS would help with that

Yeah that too! The gain from verstappen due to drs was insane...

That's just your opinion, mine is different, in my view he didnt push. To me he was preventing Lec from going to his inside next corner

Watching the F1 channel video in x0.25 shows that verstappen opened the steering too early to give any space at all. From the front perspective you can see that verstappen's car hit the Ferrari. Momentum of the "bounce" was coming from the red bull only, resulting in the red bull staying perfectly in line whole the Ferrari was bouncing off.

Maybe you call it preventing but for me it's an active push, not a passive block.
If it would've been a block and the Ferrari turning into the red bull you would see the red bull taking a bounce towards the inside. But there isn't any of that.

 

[RasmusP]

to take a wider liner than necessary.

That's a mild phrasing for the Ferrari bouncing upwards with both front wheels into a line that points off track
There was no "taking a line" by leclerc, there was only keep turning while the car makes a jump

 

[keto95]

That's a mild phrasing for the Ferrari bouncing upwards with both front wheels into a line that points off track

I'm trying to be political correct, although it's not my nature.

 

[Will Mazeo]

We gotta agree to disagree.
This race with no DRS would be very interesting, Vettel(?) was having a hard time to pass the McLaren before it was allowed to use. The only chance a slower car will be able to fight when big teams mess up their races. I doubt Verstappen would win without DRS tho

 

[Copef1]

I'm gonna ask you the same. The contact(if there are any) before Arnoux goes off the track, is in the right hander, T1 - they are side by side with Arnoux attacking. So that's not Villeneuve from behind. The corner where Arnoux goes off, that's no contact there is it?
When Villeneuve turns on, at most Arnoux have 2 wheels on the kerb. It's not pretty, but no harm done - and Villeneuve are the one losing out (also, if Villeneuve turns on, and forces Arnoux low, how can he in turn be forced wide?)
Dive bombs? While they are late, they both manage to keep the cars on the inside of the corner, it's not a desperate in the sense that it forces the other driver to take avoiding action or run off. The worst one there is after Villeneuve have run wide, and attacks in to a right hander, going out to the middle of the track. Still though, plenty of space all around.

You don't see the difference from that, and one driver just not giving space to another?

No, I don't see a difference. There is contact that forces someone off track, same as what happened with Max and Charles. Both times the contact comes from someone not giving someone else enough space, same as with Max and Charles. With Max, he was on the inside, and got to the apex first, it should have been his corner. With Villeneuve at the 1:59 mark, he was clearly behind, and initiated the contact that forced Arnoux off track. I reject your premise that what happens after the contact dictates if there is an infraction or not. To be clear, I don't want to see penalties handed out for anything that happened between Max and Charles, or Villeneuve or Arnoux. I am a fan of hard racing, and if there were battles every weekend like the Villeneuve/Arnoux, and Max/Charles battle, I think F1 would be the better for it.

 

[Antony Snook]

The mouve was fair. The problem now is Vettel will bemoan that a penalty was not given. These incidents are on a thin line between Fair and unfair. And it is up to the interpretation of the steward in the booth. And a complex document from the rule makers that determines what a driver can or cant do. And i am shore stewards can get a lot of heated arguments over there decisions. Being pro team A and against team B or Driver A over driver B. Its a dirty job but someones got to do it.

 

[Appie Kuipers]

It's racing, not crashing.

keto95, you are right, i am right, 50/50% pppffffffffffffffffff

 

[Antony Snook]

Maybe Leclerc took a wider line to have more momentum on the next straight to stay ahead on Verstappen like 1 lap earlier?

However, I do agree to bring back the grass/gravel/sand traps and many situations will see a different outcome.

The problem with gravel is if you get the car back to the track, then you will pull gravel with you. A car running behind and through the turn properly has gravel on the racing line to potentially mess up his headlining or lead to another tire stop destroying his race strategy.

 

[keto95]

The problem with gravel is if you get the car back to the track, then you will pull gravel with you.

It's less controversial than inconsistent stewards decisions all the time; most issues solve themselved. Allowing too much contact results in flying bargeboards/endplates and even punctures and an SC will be deployed. Bringing back gravel etc. will result in more fair racing and the driver immediately recieves a penalty on track as soon as he makes a mistake instead of waiting for 3 hours to come to a penalty decision.

 

[Orchuman]

What people seem to forget was Max 7th! caught up in a heart beat and still had a lap left to overtake laclerc, you really think if he didn't overtake there max wouldn't have done it at the last minute? Slow driver must get out the way, Max clearly had the better tires left. The way he caught up to laclerc from 3 seconds behind was insane. Decision is fine and it was the best F1 iv watched in long time.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

No, I don't see a difference. There is contact that forces someone off track, same as what happened with Max and Charles. Both times the contact comes from someone not giving someone else enough space, same as with Max and Charles. With Max, he was on the inside, and got to the apex first, it should have been his corner. With Villeneuve at the 1:59 mark, he was clearly behind, and initiated the contact that forced Arnoux off track. I reject your premise that what happens after the contact dictates if there is an infraction or not. To be clear, I don't want to see penalties handed out for anything that happened between Max and Charles, or Villeneuve or Arnoux. I am a fan of hard racing, and if there were battles every weekend like the Villeneuve/Arnoux, and Max/Charles battle, I think F1 would be the better for it.

I don't see the contact that forces Arnoux off the track. I see some contact in the right-hand corner, but there is no contact in the left-hand corner where Arnoux runs off, there is seemingly no unstability from the right hander contact. I cannot see any contact what so ever in the left-hander.
The sole contact that I can see that is worthy of a check is when Villeneuve turns in on Arnoux, forcing him to the inside. However, as the cars weren't damaged, and Villeneuve lost out from it. Theres nothing in it.
We've seen it in modern F1 as well, two cars making contact, with neither car having any issues from it. That is fine, contact without someone being forced off, is also fine. Punting someone off the track/forcing someone off the track is not.

F1 would be much better with Villeneuve - Arnoux battles, or Verstappen - Leclerc lap 68-style.
Lap 69 however, that's how to not race. One punt, and the other guy has lost out. That doesn't lead to racing. It might lead to an easier overtake, and possibly a more guaranteed overtake. But it causes less actual racing.

 

[keto95]

The way he caught up to laclerc from 3 seconds behind was insane.

It was only DRS, nothing to be excited about.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

...you really think if he didn't overtake there max wouldn't have done it at the last minute? Slow driver must get out the way.

You really think that is racing? The slower driver just pulls over and lets the faster car through?? It's bad enough using blue flags to make lapped cars pull over. Racing means overtaking, cleanly, regardless of who you are trying to get past.

 

[RichardHessels]

It was only DRS, nothing to be excited about.

After overtaking Leclerc, Max gained another 2.7 seconds, in 2 and half laps.
Leclerc shoud be able to keep up with his DRS?