Automobilista 2 Update: New Content, Features and Fixes

forgot to quote sorry!

ah the good old "my dk is bigger than your dk" or "my dad is better than your dad" sort of arguments, gotta love the sim "community"...not.

BrunoBæ said:

Without much patronizing I think you and your (obviously) casual friends are quite wrong in the description of the physics/tire model behaviour in AMS2.
First the "casual" thing:
If a user just pop in in any racing sim just to get a quick impression of the sim since the last time he also just popped in then he is a "casual" driver - and pretty unqualified to make a believable assessment.

A bit harsh yes but if such assessments want to be taken serious then it has to come from people who at least are able to drive the cars in AMS2 near the limit of the cars(= the TMs) loosing and regaining grip/adhesion on the virtual tarmac.
OK?

But if you can prove to me that any of your friends or maybe yourself are able to drive a car in AMS2 into this TM area then your socalled assessment could be serious.

The only proof of this in AMS2 is to show a higher position (fast laptime) on the sims official TT leaderboards.
So I challenge you to take any of the higher powered formula cars and show that you are able to drive the car near to its limits.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: On most of AMS2 formula LBs you will probably be able to find a certain BrunoB to compare your and/or your friends laptimes against - if you want your negative assessment to be taken serious.
Im waiting.

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Well, i think you missed the part where I mentioned that we feel that to be fast we need to drive in unnatural ways. I never said we could or couldnt do it. Lets not go to the same "only fast people can judge stuff " road please... thats dumb.

Btw in case you think im pulling out stuff of my ass heres his channel and some footage of him testing the car in Estoril and Portimao.. also we are talking about a guy that won Le mans 24 hours in Karts several times and is a driving coach , raced formula fords, and a gazilion other strange cars ...
https://www.youtube.com/@diogolopes007 He also thinks hes james Bond lol with this name

Tried the Formula Inter at Interlagos, it was fun a lot of fun

TeddyBearx said:

when I read AMS 2 has a FFB close to rF2 I laugh, it's only close to PC2

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Some time ago i tried the Mercedes 190E on both AMS 2 and PC2 and they definitely do not feel the same, AMS 2 is miles better both on FFB and on physics despite having the same engine

you are either trolling or hating m8

Lino Carreira said:

Well, i think you missed the part where I mentioned that we feel that to be fast we need to drive in unnatural ways. I never said we could or couldnt do it. Lets not go to the same "only fast people can judge stuff " road please... thats dumb.

Btw in case you think im pulling out stuff of my ass heres his channel and some footage of him testing the car in Estoril and Portimao.. also we are talking about a guy that won Le mans 24 hours in Karts several times and is a driving coach , raced formula fords, and a gazilion other strange cars ...
https://www.youtube.com/@diogolopes007 He also thinks hes james Bond lol with this name

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if you don't mind, can you ask your friend to list what exactly are the issues with the caterham and point out what Reiza need to do to fix it?

I do recall a former brazilian stock car driver complaining about the stock car felt unnatural to drive, with a weird overseer, a sort of a false "rev", brakes locking up easier than it should and set ups not being very responsive, and since the tire carcass update they did fixed all of the listed issues. So maybe could be cool to your friend list the issues maybe make a video about it and send to Reiza.

It seems that this sim is taking an inversed evolution in regards of physics, a year ago it was fun and felt like driving, somehow now the rears are fitted with balls instead of tires. Totally undrivable and not fun anymore. Reiza fix / roll back the physics please!

Catiorro F1 said:

if you don't mind, can you ask your friend to list what exactly are the issues with the caterham and point out what Reiza need to do to fix it?

I do recall a former brazilian stock car driver complaining about the stock car felt unnatural to drive, with a weird overseer, a sort of a false "rev", brakes locking up easier than it should and set ups not being very responsive, and since the tire carcass update they did fixed all of the listed issues. So maybe could be cool to your friend list the issues maybe make a video about it and send to Reiza.

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Well , even by looking at him driving in Estoril and then going to the sim you see that even on the less savage caterham you need to fight the car on the sim way more then he does while driving it, he does fast corrections on some turns but thats about it, me, i fight the dam thing all the time .. his comments where pretty much what everyone complains about, understeer on entry , mad oversteer on throtle , quite noticeable on the Caterhams. But ye ill try to get some more feedback from him.

Leynad777 said:

I was spending 1973 hours in AMS2 and won way over 100 online-races, often thanks to my better setups. There is less understeer nowadays, but lift-off oversteer is something different and it was once very pronounced while braking and often loosing the rear if not executing it properly. Nowadays you can even brake hard with a CART while steering and the rear will never get upset even while trying and no matter which car. There is not one car in this game today you can spin off-throttle with or without brakes, not even intentionally. You only deal with the front-axis and the rear will follow. But also the throttle-management is now way too easy and for example the SuperV8 is a shadow of it's former past. I was testing dozens of cars the recent days and all got the same treatment.

There were times (most of them) I was racing in iRacing or rF2 before and thought, AMS2 feels better, more challenging and reasonable. Now it's the exact opposite and I doubt that I've changed, it's the game, which isn't a sim anymore in this state.

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I can't understand, it's easy to get oversteer in AMS2 and lose control. What is your point? I can understand Empty box's opinion about how the Indycars ovals handle in ovals, too gripy. But with you it's a neverending loop, between those who are ok and those who are are not. It just seems capricious and a question of taste

Zolazem said:

Tried the Formula Inter at Interlagos, it was fun a lot of fun

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Yep, gave it a go yesterday. Fun stuff. I have no idea how realistic it is though. It's easy but will still punish you if get greedy (if you know what I mean).

Catiorro F1 said:

Some time ago i tried the Mercedes 190E on both AMS 2 and PC2 and they definitely do not feel the same, AMS 2 is miles better both on FFB and on physics despite having the same engine

you are either trolling or hating m8

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He mentions his 4090 when he's trolling......

Lino Carreira said:

Well , even by looking at him driving in Estoril and then going to the sim you see that even on the less savage caterham you need to fight the car on the sim way more then he does while driving it, he does fast corrections on some turns but thats about it, me, i fight the dam thing all the time .. his comments where pretty much what everyone complains about, understeer on entry , mad oversteer on throtle , quite noticeable on the Caterhams. But ye ill try to get some more feedback from him.

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Just a question, he's set the in game cars up exactly the same as the real life cars yes? Because 2 indentical cars with varying setups can feel very different. Also don't forget there is a core elemnt of Sim enthusiast who equate "difficulty" with "realism" and that often rubs off on the devs choices regarding the handling.

Damage Inc said:

Just a question, he's set the in game cars up exactly the same as the real life cars yes? Because 2 indentical cars with varying setups can feel very different. Also don't forget there is a core elemnt of Sim enthusiast who equate "difficulty" with "realism" and that often rubs off on the devs choices regarding the handling.

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Whatever the answer is I feel that it's the developers' responsibility to have a base setup that is not doing weird things. Unless they want to, of course, make people not like their game. If it's a setup problem at all.

Peter Kerényi said:

Whatever the answer is I feel that it's the developers' responsibility to have a base setup that is not doing weird things. Unless they want to, of course, make people not like their game. If it's a setup problem at all.

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I agree. It's a matter of user experience. Perhaps you can make a car feel even better with your driving style by tweaking the setup, but the default setup provided should be high-quality enough to give you a reasonably representative and enjoyable experience out of the box. When I boot a racing sim, I want to spend the time lapping and racing (and perhaps eventually tweaking the setup, if I want to spend more time with the car) not figuring out how to "unbreak" broken default setups every time.

Like how ACC default setups were made for an earlier version of the game that felt very different... so you're almost obligated to learn some setup "tricks" to have a half-decent setup. Or worse, like how earlier versions of AMS2 apparently had some cars selecting wet tyres by default in dry conditions. On one hand, you could say users should notice and fix the issue themselves. But on the other hand... you would never expect that the reason the car feels wrong to you is because the game has erroneously given you wet tyres! The user shouldn't always have to be second-guessing the software that profoundly.

BrunoBæ said:

But if you want your assessment of something to be taken serious then you have to prove that you know something about the subject.

And if we as here are talking about a racing sim then you have to prove that you both have some experience in the sim - but also that you are able use the experience to drive the cars in the sim very close to their limit. Because its here the sims physics/tire model does show if it is adequate or not.

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Lino Carreira said:

Well, i think you missed the part where I mentioned that we feel that to be fast we need to drive in unnatural ways. I never said we could or couldnt do it. Lets not go to the same "only fast people can judge stuff " road please... thats dumb.

Btw in case you think im pulling out stuff of my ass

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Its the bolded part of the text that is urgent.
Because as I say: "its here the sims physics/tire model does show if it is adequate or not."
And the only reason I involved the TT LB lists is because this is the only way you can prove if you are able to drive the cars in AMS2 close to their limit.

I dont care abour oppinions from people who are only able to drive the cars in AMS2 like my old granny are able to drive her road car.
And in the virtual world thats exactly the people way down on the LB lists.
Their oppinions about AMS2s physics/TM are as wortless as my grannys oppinion about the physics in her old car.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I dont want to be involved in your ass part. OK?

RichardHessels said:

rF2 is the gold standard, when it comes to handling and ffb.
If i play the 2 titles with the same content shorty after each other it's even more clear.

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I would say it's the gold standard of ARB-less handling and minimum tire pressure physics

Skinny McLean said:

That's what I meant by "tinkering."

My point was that it seems like the good people at Reiza have bitten off more than they can chew with this project, hence my question about their qualifications (and I'm not implying that you have to hold a university degree in computer science to create great games - many successful developers, artists and composers started out in the demo scene many years ago, entirely self-taught.) But there's a huge difference between game modding and game development, the latter of course being much more difficult.

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This.
The team is too small and it is adversely affecting the opinion of the game. It has all the look and potential of a major racing title and you see how well Pcars 1 and 2 sold yet this is comparably a dud. They are late with releases basically every single time and what is worse, manage that extremely poorly by not giving a heads up. This month is no exception.

Not only is the team small, they very obviously are struggling with the coding and have yet to remove many bugs present from day 1 even after a few years.

The game is most definitely improving and is light years better than Pcars 2 ( to not see that is just plain hate), but the game is moving at a very slow pace and Reiza haven't done themselves favors by (more than once) making the "game changing update" claim only to have users experience the same annoying bugs and uninstall the game again.

Lino Carreira said:

Well , even by looking at him driving in Estoril and then going to the sim you see that even on the less savage caterham you need to fight the car on the sim way more then he does while driving it, he does fast corrections on some turns but thats about it, me, i fight the dam thing all the time .. his comments where pretty much what everyone complains about, understeer on entry , mad oversteer on throtle , quite noticeable on the Caterhams. But ye ill try to get some more feedback from him.

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This is going off-topic, but just have to make a reply here;

I second that.

And I fully understand real life pro drivers often being toxic about sims.
Myself experienced same flaw on several occasions, comparing real life driving/racing to sims, and that the sim part was way more difficult to handle, due to. e.g. shorter wheel base, wrong suspension, way too fragile tyres-on-ice, compared to reality.
The latter especially experienced in the early rF1 versions, being more 'IceRacing' than the other title getting bullied by this.
And AC official content; have had real world track days in Audi R8's, Porsche 911 Turbo S's and Huracans, and even though the latter real life experience was not even the race version, it was way easier to floor round twisty slopes.

But sometimes the sim job is simply in the closet.
Though, and this hits me, speaking modern sims, mostly as mods.
(yes, being official sim developer doesn't automatically lead to better authentic car handling).

E.g. a Huracan LP-610 mod for GTR2 I tried for a mod version days before first IRL experience on my local track. And both braking, steering, revs and everything was just as expected. And WAY better sim experience than official AC GT releases.

But again - alot of simmers argue about bad modelling in AC, but my experience is that alot of classic MOD content is doing absolutely well speaking both wheel base and suspension. No oversteer/understeer issues.

Round millennium I raced real world Reynard 84SF and 87SF Formula Ford 2000's on a couple of occasions. And in general found quite likewise trustworthy sim experience in the official rTrainer for rF1. But this had lower engine power and, hence, more grip than power. Later tried FF2000 mods for various sims, and this was as much 'on ice' as the wing-less lower class FF1600.
Haven't yet found a trustworthy FF2000 pack, equalling my IRL experience.
Though the new AMS2 Formula Inter MG-15 comes closer. But still apparently carbon brakes, 5 H-shifter (Reynards were 4H) and more modern wheel LED (none of these in the 80ies lovely analogue FF2000s).

And again a GTR2 mod:
Suzuki Swift Sport mod. Theres quite some variants of mods out there, but sadfully I've lost this version from the good ol' NGR days. I used this pack as preparation for my revisit of Nordschleife Touristfahren in 2010. And first lap at speed the pedal to the metal I was as much excited about the GTR2 mod as the feeling of flooring round Die Schleife itself, as it was nearly a 1:1 experience. Except for the g-forces, but I do not expect high G-forces equal to reality, maybe for motion rigs driving a low power car.

I read posts, where simracing in general is disqualified by (apparently?) disgruntled real world racers in their dissapointment (and just bullying by simmers?) that simracing never can model real world, and "everything else is just a game", which is even more prominent speaking MC sims.

A bit of a silly POV IMO. There's still difference between arcade games and dedicated sims. And you don't have to be an official developer to get suspension, travel, wheel base right. Plenty of mods do have a trustworthy response to my experience. However tyre modelling and brake simulation you cannot run from. Early beta-versions of rF2 was really awful, but think most simmers agree they have fully caught up on the issue. As well as Reiza is on a journey of continous improvements, with the extra work of a challenging base sim engine.

A poster here mentioned a wish for a rebrushed AMS2 with gMotor, and I could agree to some extent. Though enormous improvements regarding FFB (at least for my near entry level wheels since FFB+), braking and feeding often feels off and sometimes I'm thinking even mods for ISI engine F1C99-02 were better.

But all in all I'm satisfied with more of the AMS2 classes, and especially the latest Formula Inter MG-15. And this type of class is not even my primary simracing hobby.

zorak said:

Physics are still the fundamentally the same and always will be I think. New content is pointless if the cars dont feel right to drive.

Save the ssd space

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What drives me crazy is that AMS1 is my main sim and people can go on and on about how much more complex the Madness engine is and whatnot, but at the end of the day, comparing same car/track combo in AMS1 and 2, I walk away feeling AMS1 feels a lot more like a real car, especially under more extreme circumstances. AMS1 is what I drive when I crave racing, AMS2 is what I put on when a friend comes over and wants to sit in my rig.

Peter Kerényi said:

Whatever the answer is I feel that it's the developers' responsibility to have a base setup that is not doing weird things. Unless they want to, of course, make people not like their game. If it's a setup problem at all.

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In an ideal world yes, but as seen with many sims that with many cars the setups are not optimal, I have no idea if the caterhams are actually flawed or not I just asked a question. I don't tend to drive cars that don't feel good to me and EVERY sim I have (which is all bar Iracing) have dodgy cars. Although if I really like the car in reality I'll tweak the setup to try and dial out the base handling characteristics I dislike.