Cars WSC/90s Group C Cars: Toyota TS010, Jaguar XJR14

[Andrew Harper]

I've only just got back onto this in the last week, so I'm hoping to ramp things back up now, other work kept extending at the last minute

No problems, real life sometimes get's in the way! lol

Whenever it's done, it's done

 

[SunBro]

I've only just got back onto this in the last week, so I'm hoping to ramp things back up now, other work kept extending at the last minute

That's very much okay.

But just a tiny little advice(more like a wish lol): Finish whatever car's closest to completion and then move to another car instead of juggling 3-4 models throughout the project. This is your project, you do you. I'm just chiming in.

 

[Andrew Harper]

That's very much okay.

But just a tiny little advice(more like a wish lol): Finish whatever car's closest to completion and then move to another car instead of juggling 3-4 models throughout the project. This is your project, you do you. I'm just chiming in.

I don't know if you've seen the project from the beginning but these cars were never meant to be mods. They were part of a modelling project and were never meant to be used in a game.

So that's partly the reason why you've got the juggling process going on.

Whatever way he wants to work it is fine by me. It is a solo effort not a group thing so these sorts of projects do take time when you are having to do everything yourself

 

[Porsche962C]

Great to know this mod is still going! Looking forward to it's eventual release. Out of interest, how did you find your reference images? I've been searching for the Jaguar XJR-14 three angle drawings for years, but never found any decent ones.

 

[Scholesy46]

I've only just got back onto this in the last week, so I'm hoping to ramp things back up now, other work kept extending at the last minute

Woop woop!

 

[mclarenf1papa]

I don't know if you've seen the project from the beginning but these cars were never meant to be mods. They were part of a modelling project and were never meant to be used in a game.

So that's partly the reason why you've got the juggling process going on.

Whatever way he wants to work it is fine by me. It is a solo effort not a group thing so these sorts of projects do take time when you are having to do everything yourself

Well, not really. Only the Mazda GTP was originally a modeling project; the rest were/are being made for AC specifically.

Anyway, on the physics side of things, I redid the TS010's aero based on the new data and changed its suspension and engine a bit.

 

[Amplified]

Good to see this project is still going!

 

[kawasaki99]

Good luck. Everything looks stunning!

 

[LTLGamer1]

When can we expect the mod to be ready?

 

[hal4000]

When it's finished...

 

[Gelly916]

Just found this thread, and am now very excited! Hoping to see your work soon!

 

[Markoloy]

Hi guys, how's it going, hope that this project ain't dead cuz it looks really good and Group C cars at the end of 80s and early start of 90s were really amazing.

 

[StevieSX]

Awesome to see this - these cars haven't really been represented in current gen racing games. Top job for working on something a little different! Models look great as well - you are killing it. However long it takes is however long it takes - so many other mods have taken the time that was needed (with all the other life commitments being involved as well) and that's how it has to be

 

[kondor999]

This is my favorite era (late 80’s/early 90’s GrC and IMSA GTP). There can NEVER be enough of these cars simulated as far as I’m concerned! Would love to see a full field of GTP machinery. I imagine it must be really difficult to dig up info on their actual handling characteristics. Most books gloss over the actual driving experience.

 

[Andrew Harper]

This is my favorite era (late 80’s/early 90’s GrC and IMSA GTP). There can NEVER be enough of these cars simulated as far as I’m concerned! Would love to see a full field of GTP machinery. I imagine it must be really difficult to dig up info on their actual handling characteristics. Most books gloss over the actual driving experience.

Totally agree my friend. I think one of my all time favourite mods are the Virtua Le Mans mods. Lovingly made with incredible attention to detail. I know there would have been some guesswork in the physics but I would love those guys to redo them for Assetto Corsa or RF2. Even if they charged for it, I could see it being incredibly popular.

I remember doing a 40 car field around Daytona in the GTR2 converted version, brilliant stuff

 

[Ryno917]

I imagine it must be really difficult to dig up info on their actual handling characteristics. Most books gloss over the actual driving experience.

There's still a lot of these guys competing in various historic events around the world. I'm sure getting in touch with some of the current owners/drivers would be possible.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

There's still a lot of these guys competing in various historic events around the world. I'm sure getting in touch with some of the current owners/drivers would be possible.

Handling characteristics don't really help with developing the car anyway, but currently, the cars are driven well under the limit by typically non-professional drivers.

 

[kondor999]

Handling characteristics don't really help with developing the car anyway, but currently, the cars are driven well under the limit by typically non-professional drivers.

You don't think it would be useful to know things like "It understeered a lot in low-speed corners?" or "It had really bad snap oversteer when you lifted?"

Seems like it would useful to validate the physics model.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

You don't think it would be useful to know things like "It understeered a lot in low-speed corners?" or "It had really bad snap oversteer when you lifted?"

Seems like it would useful to validate the physics model.

Generally, no. For one, they're on different tires now. Additionally, driver opinions are typically not very specific nor conclusive as to the root of the behavior (more rear wing causing more understeer? No...).

As for the points you mentioned (just to illustrate my point a bit), understeer in low-speed corners is a setup thing that they could easily fix on the real car. Change the TLLTD (via ARBs, springs, or both) and it's improved. Lift-off oversteer could similarly just be a damper adjustment to fix/mitigate. Diff and toe adjustments would also help. These cars ran too stiff for that kind of thing to be aero related (caused by pitch sensitivity).

Aero data is available for a range of Group-C cars and can be otherwise estimated with as good of accuracy as anyone in the sim world will ever care about (people don't seem to mind - or notice, for that matter - the Kunos LMP1s having very inaccurate aero, engine power, and tires). Engine, tires, and suspension can be fairly reasonably estimated as well... The things that define the character of two cars built on a similar platform (for example, the same set of regulations) are usually engine, setup, and aero related. The suspension geometry only really comes into play if it's quite bad (which by the time of Group-C, and especially the cars we're working on, wasn't likely to be the case). So, with decent estimates for the aero and engine (based on some data), that just leaves setup, which is adjustable. Back at square one.

The general character of Group-Cs is understeer everywhere because of poor aero bias (which cannot be alleviated via the setup - except for the cars with two-tier wings, which typically had a better balance) or slow speed oversteer to high speed understeer.

 

[elloLeo Kinnunen]

Generally, no. For one, they're on different tires now. Additionally, driver opinions are typically not very specific nor conclusive as to the root of the behavior (more rear wing causing more understeer? No...).

As for the points you mentioned (just to illustrate my point a bit), understeer in low-speed corners is a setup thing that they could easily fix on the real car. Change the TLLTD (via ARBs, springs, or both) and it's improved. Lift-off oversteer could similarly just be a damper adjustment to fix/mitigate. Diff and toe adjustments would also help. These cars ran too stiff for that kind of thing to be aero related (caused by pitch sensitivity).

Aero data is available for a range of Group-C cars and can be otherwise estimated with as good of accuracy as anyone in the sim world will ever care about (people don't seem to mind - or notice, for that matter - the Kunos LMP1s having very inaccurate aero, engine power, and tires). Engine, tires, and suspension can be fairly reasonably estimated as well... The things that define the character of two cars built on a similar platform (for example, the same set of regulations) are usually engine, setup, and aero related. The suspension geometry only really comes into play if it's quite bad (which by the time of Group-C, and especially the cars we're working on, wasn't likely to be the case). So, with decent estimates for the aero and engine (based on some data), that just leaves setup, which is adjustable. Back at square one.

The general character of Group-Cs is understeer everywhere because of poor aero bias (which cannot be alleviated via the setup - except for the cars with two-tier wings, which typically had a better balance) or slow speed oversteer to high speed understeer.

I could read this sort of thing all day long. You should write a book!