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[tactile] Upgrading my tactile setup with DSP

Hi!

I've been reading some very enlightening topics!
BUTTKICKER BOTTOMING / PISTON PANG / THERMAL CUT OFF ? Working Solution!

Behringer NX3000D DSP Settings Starting Point

Here is my tactile setup (bought in 2014):
- 1 Throne Thumper under the fiber seat + Pearl 200W amp
- 2 bass shaker 100W left and right side of the seat + 200W car amp
- 4 Dayton pucks (not mounted but suitable for pedal and shifter ?)
- SimHub software

(+ pressure gSeat + 2 DOF harness tensionner + direct drive)

1612547027763.png


I was frustrated with my buttkicker because of (frightening) piston pangs forcing me to lower the gain.
Before the Throne Thumper, I burnt 1 DIY subwoofer buttkicker since that I'm wary with gain...
So the overall results were poor...
And when I read this :cool:
I compared the large BK via Behringer amp with DSP to using the same effects with the BK2 Gamer and its own amp and well, it's a joke and was rather pathetic with none of the energy or sensation the effects are really generating.

With the DSP operating, its possible to focus output on the wanted range and also increase the overall gain without distortion and without risk of damaging the hardware.
DSP is the way for me to go!

from this clear post, I have understood that DSP can reduce power given to the frequency range causing the pangs
and redirect power to lower or upper range for more powerful effects!
All we need to do is apply an EQ filter to reduce the dB of those (peak/spike frequencies).
Unlike "volume" that adjusts the full dynamic range (altering all frequencies the same). We are seeking to adjust the dB of "amplitude" to reduce/increase the energy (dB) within "specific frequencies". This modifies the character output of the transducer. It also can be useful to reduce/remove resonance (buzzing) within rig materials as different materials will resonate at different frequencies. If we find the frequency causing the resonance issue we can lower its dB too.

This can be done by what is called PEQ (Parametric Eq) unlike conventional DEQ (Dynamic Eq) that has fixed frequency sliders.
I'm in :)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Stream deck android alternatives and ressources -/- 2DOF harness tensionner with Fly PTmover
 
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Purchase list:
Here is my questionning:
► AMP + DSP
Should I buy a Behringer NX3000D (259€) + silent fan Noctua NF-R8 or fan mod
Power: 2x 900 Watt à 4 Ohm, 2x 1500 Watt à 2 Ohm
or
Behringer NX1000D (220€)
Power: 2x 300 Watt at 4 Ohm, 2x 500 Watt at 2 Ohm
8-band parametric, 2-band dynamic equalizer
but Throne Thumper is up 400W...

discontinued models: inuke DSP amplifier
NU1000DSP with USB interface


► DSP standalone
if you already have amplifiers:
- Dayton Audio DSP-408 4x8 DSP Digital Signal Processor
Chipset: Analog Devices ADAU1701 Sigma DSP 28/56 bit 169€ 159$

no amplifier,
signal processing 10 parametricEQ
and mixer
4 inputs and 8 outputs

Windows software DSP-408-Windows-V1.24.exe
3 872 Ko
no install
drag EQ with mouse :cool:

or Android app in conjunction with BT remote control
DSP-408 interface.png


- t.racks dsp 4x4 mini 85€
no wattage limiter
software (1 947Ko, require installation)
1612612264711.png


- DEQ2496 :
10 independent, fully parametric filters per channel
narrow filters down to 1/10 oct
numerical input
239€ still expensive or second-hand 150€

manual setup (no PC interface)
but here non offocial windows software (archived here)

- Behringer Virtualizer Pro DSP1000P quoted in some posts (not available at the moment)

- miniDSP C-DSP 6x8 6 In 8 Out Automotive DSP is too expensive 300$

- Lab Gruppen : LG-D10-4L-LAKE
Ampli. 4 x 250 W/4 ohm, 100 V, LAKE - Lab Gruppen D 10:4L
2890 € :confused:


► software DSP
As I have understood, DSP standalone software are not yet up to Behringer hardware DSP
possible issues with channel leakage, distortion and delay with virtual routing, latency ?
no wattage limiter

- free EQ APO software to suppress these peaks and enhance weaker areas to get a wide usable range.
[Tactile] tutorial Simhub + Equalizer APO + Peace

1612618504460.png


-Ipad
Mr Latte: I have mentioned how easy it is to use iPad and compatible interfaces with apps like AUM. Its so cool and simple. Plugins like Fabfilter Q3 will bring advanced features for control (like dynamic EQ) that could improve on what is possible with other options. More real tests would help determine how each option compares or what suits the user but a multichannel input interface with this iPad approach via AUM would not need DSP on the amps or soundcard. So this can give you DSP functionality from the iPad and applied to all the channels you want it on (each with own settings). This bypasses the issue with NXD USB only able to work on a single amp at a time.

- SimHub -> JRiver WDM -> JRiver DSP -> Audio Card

- "Fabfilter Pro Q3 is one of the best in the industry and can be used on iPad via AUM or while more expensive purchased as a plugin for DAW software solutions." (339€ + need to buy a tablet!)

► PEQ GEQ?
An interesting article about ParametricEQ vs GraphicEQ
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/peq-vs-graphic-eq : for our use, the PEQ allow more specific filtering
"Parametric EQ thus allows a single filter to be very narrow or quite wide, and it is therefore very useful for correcting frequency response errors in a loudspeaker or reducing peaks caused by room modes."
 
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Tactile transducers
comparison chart:



Throne thumperMQB1 MiniEarthquakeQuake Q10BButtKicker Mini LFEButtKicker LFE
Internal Mass of the piston:453g246g675g170g1470g
Frequency Response:10-250Hz15-100Hz5-70Hz10-200Hz5-200Hz
Nominal Impedance:4 Ohm8 Ohm8 Ohm4 Ohm4 Ohm
Power Handling:75 watt min. / 400 watt max.300W RMS1000W RMS50/250W RMS400/1500W
1,5" stroke2" stroke
400€ amp included204€ w/o VAT471€ w/o VAT
134 €​
325 €​


BK-KIT-4
5-200Hz
4 ohm
75W mini to 400W max

► If my pucks are too weak, I'll look for Exciter (+ DSP of course)
Recommended exciter is: Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciter Speaker 40W 4 Ohm
But if someone needs 2x 4 channel DSP boxes for 8 exciters then the cost of those is getting to a point an audio interface
may be a better option.
Note:
An "Exciter" is a vibration unit that turns objects into speakers, it will act like a speaker with a wide range of frequencies. Unlike a "Transducer" which are limited only to a small number of bass frequencies.

In 2019 I got an idea of trying to use an "Exciter" with controlled crossover settings to then reduce its operation in acting as a speaker for it to instead operate only with bass frequencies. In essence, making them operate more like a "Transducer" but with the benefits similar to Clark Synthesis TST transducers that we could generate much finer detail for harmonics and extend felt sensations to beyond 150Hz-200Hz. So technically we are using these not in their normal operation and hence why we need to take care with settings or crossovers in feeding them constant low bass signals.

I recommend for the exciters to use either a 3rd party or Simhubs crossover feature to protect them from the lowest Hz.

Clark Synthesis TST: no specs found...

You have to keep in mind that many people using budget tactile are working with a very narrow frequency range as most budget tactile only works at best in the 40-80Hz ranges. Some not even that, so not a lot you can do with DSP on such tactile transducers if they are limited that way. This is partly one reason some people will say DSP does not make much difference.

Test to be tried: create a bypass filter to feel only a large BK LFE or Concert model output performance from 100-200Hz. Alternatively, use only 100Hz-200Hz in Simhub for the RPM effects settings.
 
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About the "NX Edit" software configuration
https://www.behringer.com/downloads.html

► Software NX Series Edit PC V1.0
available freely here on Behringer site
1 906 Ko, no install

► tutorials and explanations
Behringer NX3000D DSP Settings Starting Point

Dual mode

two very different settings

tactile tuning and crossover


The polarity won't really matter as long as you keep the same polarity for any BKs that are installed upright compared to those installed inverted.

In that scenario, if someone has let's say 1x BK upright at seat and another 1x BK inverted under pedals then you would actually want reversed polarity on one so that both BKs piston is going up/down in sync.

If this is not done then one units bass will cancel out the other.
As you bought the DSP version. The DSP amps have a feature in the "Configuration" screen for this that reverses the polarity (Phase 180) from the amp so the user does not need to switch the wiring/terminals. :)


You can save profiles also to a folder on your PC (recommended) I have all too often been working on a profile and hit "Store" instead of "Recall" and then mistakenly over-write what may of been a good saved profile.

Windows sound card setup

Simhub
Simhub profil of Mr Latte

Simhub profil of RCHeliguy

Simhub method

Engine RPM

Important:
1) Soundcard Volume (Simhubs Primary Vol Top Right)
+
2) Input Trim Level (Knobs On Amp)
=
3) Pre Amp gain level


  1. Soundcard output level (source signal)
  2. Input trim level (signal pre-amplifier)
  3. Output level (primary/main amplification and output of source)
Comparing tactile devices procedure
 
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First thing first, let's try Parametric Equalization before purchasing a DSP hardware with APO EQ

note that the power limiter is the one function that cannot be done by EQ APO or any software DSP

If you want the best software EQ on PC then look into trying PEACE APO EQ.
Configure this to work with the soundcard you are using for tactile output. This will give you the ability to use "Parametric EQ" (PEQ) and determine what Hz you want to equalize unlike a standard EQ with fixed frequency sliders.

APO + Peace french tutorial

if you want EQ APO to work on multiple devices you have to specify each device separately. If you want to apply the same crossover settings to multiple devices you have to do it individually for each device.


I've found out that APO can be used with multiple sound cards configuration:
1612639805989.png


Simhub doesn't offer a tone generator so I'm looking how to test channel by channel

I used the test tones independent of SimHub just by directing Windows to send audio out to the appropriate sound card. As far as I could tell, this output is only “stereo aware,” so I had to make sure the exciters/transducers I wanted to test were plugged into the primary L/R output of the sound card I’d selected. Swapping around the plugs is a bit of a pain

https://filmora.wondershare.com/video-editing-tips/best-online-tone-generators.html
on line tone generator doesn't offer the choice of your sound card channel...

these softwares let you choose the channel :)
► daqarta ( 10 Mo with install)
corrupt installation :(

passmark soundcheck (800Ko with install)
can output on different sound cards
but only stereo :(
only 1 kHz test tones

► multi channel file (no tone) https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/multichannel.html

SignalGenerator
looks promising
1612643381631.png


EQ settings and screenshots APO + Peace from @The Iron Wolf
 
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to do list:
► regroup the setup example and explanation for Behringer DSP software (in progress in this topic)

► try frequency by frequency how the buttkicker and bassshakers behave while i'm in the seat. (in progress in this topic)
Various online tone generators let the user select different waveforms if they want to play around with such.
With "Test Tone" based experiments via tone generators, you can determine what your tactile hardware achieves

► try mixing Simhub signals and game audio

► investigate rubber and spring isolators

► nice examples of cable management with internal routing

gauge wires
 
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blekenbleu

Premium
As I have understood, DSP standalone software are not yet up to Behringer hardware DSP
possible issues with channel leakage, distortion and delay with virtual routing, latency ?
no wattage limiter
My guess is that channel leakage issues may be from someone configuring Windows Speaker Setup to Quadraphonic,
which involves channel mixing, rather than 5.1 or 7.1
- free EQ APO software to suppress these peaks and enhance weaker areas to get a wide usable range. 33 Mo
but limited to 1 soundcard?
Particularly with harness tensioners, whether one can learn to exploit over 8 more haptic feedback channels,
much less have patience to correctly configure and tune them, seems arguable.
Most pucks, exciters or other tranducers acting directly on e.g. seat shell, frame or pedals
should be able to work well with much less power than transducers bolted to 8020 chassis or similar.
At least in the U.S., Denon and other manufacturers sold many 7.1 surround receivers with over 100Wpc before HDMI was released,
and those obsolete receivers can often be obtained locally e.g. at yard/garage sales for well under US$100.

Generally, if a sharp null is found in transducer frequency response,
that null results from so-called destructive interference,
and typically cannot be corrected by equalization boosts.
Rather, reconfiguration of transducer geometries is wanted to work around anti-resonances in driven structures
or possibly inverting phase of driving signal to a transducer, if cancellations are among transducers.

To explore non-sinusoidal signals, consider music synthesizer software.
Equalizer APO can work with Room Equalization Wizard to help identify haptic response peaks and nulls.
 
thanks for the explanations, but that's over my head!
I'll stick to sinusoidal signals ;) and try using APO + Simhub

My Throne Thumper dislikes 51-53 Hz...
And my rig resonates between 33-36Hz...
 
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blekenbleu

Premium
I'll stick to sinusoidal signals
There is a "trick" for obtaining low frequency haptics from small transducers:
start with a sinusoid that transducers handle well (e.g. 100Hz) and modulate that by the low frequency.
Modulation involves multiplying, rather than additive mixing,
e.g. gain*(1 + lowF)*(100Hz). FWIW, that is how much music synthesis works.
 
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