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A little help needed regarding Buttkickers LFE large and amplifier

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First of all, this is a great place for finding information about sim racing gear. There is a a lot in this forum in regards to the Buttkickers, and I have a simple question.

I bought a Behringer NX6000D amp to run 2 x Buttkickers LFE's full size in simvibe extension mode. The question is what cables do I need and where should be connected.

In addition, this may not be relavant but it might be worth mentioning that already have configured 4 mini lfe's buttkickers chassis mode. The amp I am using for mini's is Emotiva BasX A500 and It works well.

As for the Behringer nx6000d, it uses different cables for inputs and outputs.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers
 
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Thanks for the reply and support.

I shall try things as you have suggested but I have no idea about how to apply dsp or do anything with the amps? My guess is all done through USB from an amp to computer? Right?
 

Mr Latte

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Thanks for the reply and support.

I shall try things as you have suggested but I have no idea about how to apply dsp or do anything with the amps? My guess is all done through USB from an amp to computer? Right?

I can help take you through this later ..

For now, I would like you to focus on applying scores in performance you would give for the BK Mini vs LFE
From 5Hz - 200Hz using that test tone profile I created and applying gear or rpm to feel tones.

It's interesting for others following and also good to get individual users /owners opinions on these two units.
I am curious too what you find and how you score certain frequency ranges.

I have done similar in the past with dozens of people for over 2 years in PM to get peoples own scores for various models of transducers (not just BK) as this then helped my own learning/understanding.

Set each unit to a comfortable volume.

Rate 1-5 for each frequency band or test.
1 being lowest & 5 being highest

5Hz =
10Hz =
20Hz =
30Hz =
40Hz =
50Hz =

10Hz steps all the way to 200Hz
Note what Hz you begin to feel with reasonable usage, what felt best, what Hz become very limited or no use?
 
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I can help take you through this later ..

For now, I would like you to focus on applying scores in performance you would give for the BK Mini vs LFE
From 5Hz - 200Hz using that test tone profile I created and applying gear or rpm to feel tones.

It's interesting for others following and also good to get individual users /owners opinions on these two units.
I am curious too what you find and how you score certain frequency ranges.

I have done similar in the past with dozens of people for over 2 years in PM to get peoples own scores for various models of transducers (not just BK) as this then helped my own learning/understanding.

Set each unit to a comfortable volume.

Rate 1-5 for each frequency band or test.
1 being lowest & 5 being highest

5Hz =
10Hz =
20Hz =
30Hz =
40Hz =
50Hz =

10Hz steps all the way to 200Hz
Note what Hz you begin to feel with reasonable usage, what felt best, what Hz become very limited or no use?
Ok will do, this will be interesting.
 
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Can I ask you for a favor?
Would you do with no DSP added a comparison of the Mini - full size BK and determine what Hz each feels nice from and too. Lets get more clarity in what Hz on your rig you feel the Mini working better too and what is the limit of the larger BK.

I want you to also do tests with over 100Hz - 200Hz as this will also establish what Hz you discover the BK Mini is fading out at to the point it is not felt hardly at all.

As for Simhub Soundcards
Have you set the cards to "custom mode"
Also do the soundcards properties in Windows and "Configure" each card to operate with all channels and all channels to large. Let other software make changes and apply this to each soundcard properties.

Might be able to perform a few tests tonight or tomorrow in the morning.

If you don't mind, could you please explain what do you mean by "each card to operate with all channels " Are you referring to selecting all channels in surround or something else?

The other thing, how can i disable or enable DSP? Can this be controlled from the Behringer software or directly from the amp?

And also, should I select DUAL or STEREO mode in NX6000D?
Cheers
 
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Mr Latte

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Might be able to perform a few tests tonight or tomorrow in the morning.

If you don't mind, could you please explain what do you mean by "each card to operate with all channels " Are you referring to selecting all channels in surround or something else?

The other thing, how can i disable or enable DSP? Can this be controlled from the Behringer software or directly from the amp?

And also, should I select DUAL or STEREO mode in NX6000D?
Cheers

See post number1 on the main tactile discussion thread.
It has links to other threads and one covering the NXD software.

Simhubwiki

You need to configure your soundcards via Windows Properties
Within that click on "Configure" to set up a card within Windows.

There you select 7.1 and set ALL channels to large speakers
Also allow other software to control this device as one of the options.

Simhub will use the Windows configuration that is done for each card
Then within SImhub you choose the Custom mode for 7.1 channels
 
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Mr Latte

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Let me know how you got on or if need more help
I would do tests for now with no DSP

*Guide may need a small fix regards Stereo /Dual Mono modes.
You will see that one of these options offers individual EQ/CROSSOVER settings for A & B channels
The other applies settings to both A & B channels.

I believe from memory, it is Dual Mono that allows individual settings and not Stereo, so confirm that for me as I don't have access to my amps at the moment.

In your case, lets imagine a scenario you have a large BK attached to channel A and a Mini BK attached to channel B. We would want individual control settings for each of these and not for one group of settings applied to both units on channels A & B.

In a scenario of someone using 2x large BK then they may configure both units the same and to make it easier to have one group of settings be applied the same to both units.

However even with two units the same.......
I normally recommend having independent control of each unit.
This may be to simply balance any variations in output from the soundcard or one channel appearing to feel as having a slight bit more gain than the other.

Balancing
Often a person may have two units identical but how they are installed may be different in a scenario like one at pedals and one at seat. So how the energy can disperse will vary and not always will the two same units on the same amp at the same volume feel the same. So an early thing to do is balance each unit to the desired level so that effects at their set volumes meet the feel the user wants in both units. An easy way to do this with the NXD amps is have a bit more input gain (front knobs) on one channel to the other.

Better Tuned Transducer Installation?
Additionally, with independent settings, you can tweak the EQ as reverb issues may differ on the seat compared to the pedal region. This based on the materials used in what frequencies that may resonate badly or might be more problematic, may differ.

So having the availability to individually tune each unit with its own DSP settings can be valuable in this usage case scenario. As it's easy to then find the Hz causing the reverb on that unit (with frequency testing) and reduce the amplitude for those problematic frequencies for that particular unit or surface material.

This is a major part of DSP that most people might overlook as a useful tuning feature with regards to unwanted resonance in a rig. It's not the only solution but valuable if resonance is an issue.

Aluminium / Steel / Carbon Fibre / Fiberglass / PVC / Woods
All types of common materials tactile may be installed directly onto for sim rigs but every one of these will have different resonant frequencies.
 
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Let me know how you got on or if need more help
I would do tests for now with no DSP

*Guide may need a small fix regards Stereo /Dual Mono modes.
You will see that one of these options offers individual EQ/CROSSOVER settings for A & B channels
The other applies settings to both A & B channels.

I believe from memory, it is Dual Mono that allows individual settings and not Stereo, so confirm that for me as I don't have access to my amps at the moment.

In your case, lets imagine a scenario you have a large BK attached to channel A and a Mini BK attached to channel B. We would want individual control settings for each of these and not for one group of settings applied to both units on channels A & B.

In a scenario of someone using 2x large BK then they may configure both units the same and to make it easier to have one group of settings be applied the same to both units.

However even with two units the same.......
I normally recommend having independent control of each unit.
This may be to simply balance any variations in output from the soundcard or one channel appearing to feel as having a slight bit more gain than the other.

Balancing
Often a person may have two units identical but how they are installed may be different in a scenario like one at pedals and one at seat. So how the energy can disperse will vary and not always will the two same units on the same amp at the same volume feel the same. So an early thing to do is balance each unit to the desired level so that effects at their set volumes meet the feel the user wants in both units. An easy way to do this with the NXD amps is have a bit more input gain (front knobs) on one channel to the other.

Better Tuned Transducer Installation?
Additionally, with independent settings, you can tweak the EQ as reverb issues may differ on the seat compared to the pedal region. This based on the materials used in what frequencies that may resonate badly or might be more problematic, may differ.

So having the availability to individually tune each unit with its own DSP settings can be valuable in this usage case scenario. As it's easy to then find the Hz causing the reverb on that unit (with frequency testing) and reduce the amplitude for those problematic frequencies for that particular unit or surface material.

This is a major part of DSP that most people might overlook as a useful tuning feature with regards to unwanted resonance in a rig. It's not the only solution but valuable if resonance is an issue.

Aluminium / Steel / Carbon Fibre / Fiberglass / PVC / Woods
All types of common materials tactile may be installed directly onto for sim rigs but every one of these will have different resonant frequencies.
I did not have enough time to play with my sim rig setup. This coming Sunday will dedicate all day to it.
Furthermore, I can give you a quick info about my current settings. My NX6000D's are on default factory setting. No changes were made since I bought it and it is in Dual Mono that allows for individual settings as you mentioned. The physical knobs on the amps are set to mid level and it works best as is. Any slight increase is causing pang/ poston noise. Turning lower volume from the amp won't give me enough power. As for the sound card settings, in windows control panel all configured as per SimVIbe instructions. Note that I will need to reconfigure for the SImHub. I understand the concept of having Dual mono mode since the SimVibe is this method or system. Talking about SimVIbe, (sure it's not a topic of the day) but it is worth mentioning, I am familiar with it and so far managed to tune in to acceptable level. It works well so far except that some effects are not felt in Large BK's whilst Mini's are actually able to produce. The large BK's work best with lower frequencies in SimVibe. I am talking about number 20 in simvibe but I am not sure whether this stands for 20Hz or just a number? On the other hand, the Mini Bk is felt best at around number 60 in simvibe. it could be 60Hz, not sure?
I think You are spot on about Balancing and Transducer installation. I've noticed a slightly different effect and noise due to a having them installed in places where other hardware is installed too. As a result the sound and effects are slightly different. That being said, prior to doing the frequency test, maybe I should spend time testing all 8 transducers individually just to see where and when each transducer performs or feels best. I shall write everything down and post it in one of your threads.

Will get back to you on this subject soon. Once again, your support is highly appreciated.
 

Mr Latte

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Hi again, just going to go over some points you mentioned in the last post.
Im not going to cover Simvibe and do recommend the sooner you get acquainted with Simhub then the sooner you will learn of its benefits. The idea is to get people to able to work with others in creating superior effects with Simhub and sharing profiles effect ideas with other owners of the large BK units and ability to push them with NXD DSP capable amps.


The physical knobs on the amps are set to mid level and it works best as is. Any slight increase is causing pang/ piston noise. Turning lower volume from the amp won't give me enough power.

So already you have an issue, that a small amount of trim on the front knobs is too little power and any slight gain is too much. This with the (input gain) via front knobs already only at (midpoint) approx 12pm position.

What you are doing here is confirming a scenario I mentioned previously prior to knowing you had already purchased NX6000D model.

Behringer's wattages stated I believe are (peak wattage) ratings and not RMS but let's take a look.

NX6000D
Power: 2x 3000 Watt at 4 Ohm

NX3000D
Power: 2x 900 W at 4 Ohm

Quite a difference in wattage outputs between each model.
So you need to use the DSP to reduce the NX600D wattage as we see it has more than 3x the output of the recommended 3000D model. I do not know anyone that uses even a 3000D model at max capacity especially if users are installing the units direct to seat/pedal sections for better-felt detail and also requiring less wattage output to be used.

BK Specs Say 1500 Watts...
Yes the BK is rated at up to 1500w and the common issue with all BK units when you take them higher in wattage then the piston pang becomes more critical due to (particular culprit frequencies) that various BK models need specific attenuation applied. If that is done then the user will control better the piston issue. This can be done with PEQ controls in targeting these culprit frequencies and reducing their amplitude. The larger units seem to have a spike in output @20-25Hz and with the BK Mini it is @30-35Hz. When we apply EQ to reduce the output of these frequencies going to the units then it helps this issue but the user is also advised to take care with input levels of the source (soundcard) and how the pre-amp section alters the source input prior to the main amplification.

Try setting the NX6000D with 1000W per channel I doubt you will need more?

I recommend with these NXD amps, using a soundcard at 50% - 60% output
Then have the front knobs on amp from 12pm-2pm positions

This appeared to work well with several people in past private testing using the large BK.

Important:
1) Soundcard Volume (Simhubs Primary Vol Top Right)
+
2) Input Trim Level (Knobs On Amp)
=
3) Pre Amp gain level

If you have a soundcard at 100% lower it to reduce potential clipping and distortion

The combination of these = the input level for source going into the amp from the soundcard prior to the amps primary amplification.

This ensures the signal from the soundcard is not already coming in too hot
Lots of people will crank a soundcard to 100% and then it creates more issues with effects peaking and potential clipping of the signal.

We then apply additional dB to the frequencies via the Crossover and this determine what energy/amplitude is applied to specific frequencies. Here you control the slope to suit what type/model of unit is being used, also to your preference and possible usage case that this tactile unit will have.

We can then use PEQ for specific tuning/altering of individual frequencies, so a user can fully tune a unit to operate at its best within their own installation and preferences. Once it's done to the user's satisfaction, it's done needing no more tweaking. However, it is possible to create profiles that alter the amp for types of scenario. Say late-night gaming in that you want the tactile but at a lesser output. So its easy to load a different pre-tuned profile exactly for that purpose.

Once you get to grips with it you discover it's not that complicated at all.


As for the sound card settings, in windows control panel all configured as per SimVIbe instructions. Note that I will need to reconfigure for the SImHub. I understand the concept of having Dual mono mode since the SimVibe is this method or system. Talking about SimVIbe, (sure it's not a topic of the day) but it is worth mentioning, I am familiar with it and so far managed to tune in to an acceptable level. It works well so far except that some effects are not felt in Large BK's whilst Mini's are actually able to produce.

The large BK's work best with lower frequencies in SimVibe. I am talking about number 20 in simvibe but I am not sure whether this stands for 20Hz or just a number? On the other hand, the Mini Bk is felt best at around number 60 in simvibe. it could be 60Hz, not sure?

So you don't know what the values represent or if they are acurate?
Are you referring to using the Simvibe Settings screen like this for testing these tones?
Or that you are doing these tests from within a sim running and it generating real-time tones via an effect slider?



The reason I ask is that the settings screen (above) that has the (Test Tone) slider to alters tones, never worked correctly but I do not know if it was ever fixed? Yet I do know a lot of people did use this in an attempt to tune their tactile in thinking they are feeling the different tones, oh dear.....

I would use that only to determine if you get a response and nothing more.


Recommendation:
Do those tests requested via Simhub and from within a sim. Using the RPM or Gear for repeated or single sensations. This way you are replicating how the tactile will be used and not other test tone options.

I think You are spot on about Balancing and Transducer installation. I've noticed a slightly different effect and noise due to a having them installed in places where other hardware is installed too. As a result the sound and effects are slightly different. That being said, prior to doing the frequency test, maybe I should spend time testing all 8 transducers individually just to see where and when each transducer performs or feels best. I shall write everything down and post it in one of your threads.

Yes and yet we still have people on these forums who will argue that DSP is not needed at all.
Look forward to your tests and findings.
 
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Getting back in regards to my findings. Not finished with it yet but so far this is what I found.

Sorry to disappoint but Simhub did not work well for me. I could not get the vibe out of it as I should. I reconfigured my sound cards as per instructions. Also, there were a few crashes using Raceroom. Most effects were very weak unless I cranked up the knob on the amp. I might be doing something wrong here but there are a few good things that I found very interesting.

First, I understand that Simvibe wont be covered here but it is worth mentioning that the frequencies from the effects were pretty accurate and things are working pretty well there.

However here is something to note. I have performed frequency test from an online frequency tone generator and this is what I found:

Large Buttkickers, AMPLIFIERS NX6000D two channel. Knob volume position 2 o'clock. Sound card volume 60%. So far this was giving a very good balance.

10hz-20hz was notable but not strong enough
20hz -25hz pretty good deep effective vibrations without much noise
30hz-35hz very strong vibe great for aggressive sim effects.
38hz-45hz clunky noise, piston noise you name it. Totally unacceptable, uncomfortable and it is something that you don't want to hear. It doesn't even feel good at all.
50hz-60hz noticeable but no use.
60hz and above, no use at all.

I hope this helps a little. I will come back with more info shortly

In addition, if I am not mistaken, could use DSP setting to eliminate unwanted frequencies. The question is how? Not very familiar with EQ, PEQ, Crossover etc...

Once again thanks for your support
 
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So you don't know what the values represent or if they are acurate?
Are you referring to using the Simvibe Settings screen like this for testing these tones?
Or that you are doing these tests from within a sim running and it generating real-time tones via an effect slider?



The reason I ask is that the settings screen (above) that has the (Test Tone) slider to alters tones, never worked correctly but I do not know if it was ever fixed? Yet I do know a lot of people did use this in an attempt to tune their tactile in thinking they are feeling the different tones, oh dear.....
The mentioned above are definitely not accurate and I only use it to test if the transducers are active, in fact I don't use it much at all.

Simvibe effects are pretty accurate (engine vibe, road bumps etc...) I compared it to Frequency tone generator and it sounds and feels exactly the same. Impressive. My large BK's are not able to produce strong high frequencies which is why I have mini's to take care of that. Large BK's are best at around 15Hz-35hz depending on the application or effects.

You are spot on about the image above. This should not be used for any referencing except just to test if the BK's are active.
 
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Mr Latte

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Getting back in regards to my findings. Not finished with it yet but so far this is what I found.

Sorry to disappoint but Simhub did not work well for me. I could not get the vibe out of it as I should. I reconfigured my sound cards as per instructions. Also, there were a few crashes using Raceroom. Most effects were very weak unless I cranked up the knob on the amp. I might be doing something wrong here but there are a few good things that I found very interesting.

First, I understand that Simvibe wont be covered here but it is worth mentioning that the frequencies from the effects were pretty accurate and things are working pretty well there.

However here is something to note. I have performed frequency test from an online frequency tone generator and this is what I found:

Large Buttkickers, AMPLIFIERS NX6000D two channel. Knob volume position 2 o'clock. Sound card volume 60%. So far this was giving a very good balance.

10hz-20hz was notable but not strong enough
20hz -25hz pretty good deep effective vibrations without much noise
30hz-35hz very strong vibe great for aggressive sim effects.
38hz-45hz clunky noise, piston noise you name it. Totally unacceptable, uncomfortable and it is something that you don't want to hear. It doesn't even feel good at all.
50hz-60hz noticeable but no use.
60hz and above, no use at all.

I hope this helps a little. I will come back with more info shortly

In addition, if I am not mistaken, could use DSP setting to eliminate unwanted frequencies. The question is how? Not very familiar with EQ, PEQ, Crossover etc...

Once again thanks for your support

I do all my own Simhub tactile tests within AC or ACC.
I don't know of issues of crashes with certain titles is something on your end or with that Sim and Simhub but not seen anyone mention particular crashes being a problem. The developer is also quite active and generally fixes issues.

Can you confirm what you did with the wattage limiter to determine what the peak watts now is going to the BK?

Why did you not mention issues with Simhub setup, help could of been given.
 
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Mr Latte

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If we try to use online tone generators or other tone apps to determine Hz output then it's like we are assuming those sinewave "pure tones" represent what Simhub or Simvibe being used for effects will also generate.

Problem No1
For better feeling effects we will not generally rely on using pure tones for effects sensations and other settings/factors used in effects controls won't make them have identical outputs as online or other generators. This applies even more when using the higher end tactile hardware or if taking into account installations combining the usage of more than one type/model of transducer to achieve effects using much more dynamic range than typical installations.

What matters is how tones feel in what we are using to create effects.
I tried to highlight this and why using test effects within the actual software lets us better determine what Hz can be best utilized on the transducer hardware being used.

If we use a Gear Change to represent a tone in Simvibe / Simhub then if the same frequency tone is used via other generators they would be identical right....

No, they can be different....

What (pure tones) will feel like is not relevant to what we are trying to do in generating effects from specialist software options like Simhub. More harmonics may be present or the amplitude of frequencies different when comparing these as two sources.

Also, your intended usage of the BK Mini is I think a bit flawed as they too struggle with mid-high frequencies. Certainly are better hardware options for producing harmonics that are being generated with various effects and any specific effect layers we may want to use with mid-upper bass frequencies.

You have a very powerful amp and the largest LFE but still issues with various frequencies and what appears as a bit lackluster performance below 20Hz.

This just highlights why the DSP is useful for tuning and controlling the amplitude of different frequencies to get the best performance from the amp for both much-improved effects using the lowest frequencies and control of frequencies that cause issues.
 
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I do all my own Simhub tactile tests within AC or ACC.
I don't know of issues of crashes with certain titles is something on your end or with that Sim and Simhub but not seen anyone mention particular crashes being a problem. The developer is also quite active and generally fixes issues.

Can you confirm what you did with the wattage limiter to determine what the peak watts now is going to the BK?

Why did you not mention issues with Simhub setup, help could of been given.

Thanks for the reply. I wish I had more time to work around Simhub which is why I didn't ask for help as much.

I am playing Raceroom and iRacing from racing titles(iRacing less). I own ACC, AMS and RF2 but have no interest at all. Not my cup of tea.

I did absolutely nothing to limit the wattage. I don't know who except that I can use the volume knobs. Would you mind if you take me through the steps of limiting the wattage please?

As for the crash, it could be something to do with the title I am using. It crashed twice out of 6 times on loading the track that's all. Not going to question it until I get around Simhub, if I do. It could be that Raceroom in particular doesn't feel the same in Simhub as is in ACC. If you own RR, please try it and see if the effects are weak?
 
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Mr Latte

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I take it you didnt see the NXD / DSP help guide that I mentioned to you?
Have you downloaded and looked at the amps software?
 
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I believe you are talking about this guide:
"
This appeared to work well with several people in past private testing using the large BK.

Important:
1) Soundcard Volume (Simhubs Primary Vol Top Right)
+
2) Input Trim Level (Knobs On Amp)
=
3) Pre Amp gain level

If you have a soundcard at 100% lower it to reduce potential clipping and distortion

The combination of these = the input level for source going into the amp from the soundcard prior to the amps primary amplification.

This ensures the signal from the soundcard is not already coming in too hot
Lots of people will crank a soundcard to 100% and then it creates more issues with effects peaking and potential clipping of the signal.

We then apply additional dB to the frequencies via the Crossover and this determine what energy/amplitude is applied to specific frequencies. Here you control the slope to suit what type/model of unit is being used, also to your preference and possible usage case that this tactile unit will have.

We can then use PEQ for specific tuning/altering of individual frequencies, so a user can fully tune a unit to operate at its best within their own installation and preferences. Once it's done to the user's satisfaction, it's done needing no more tweaking. However, it is possible to create profiles that alter the amp for types of scenario. Say late-night gaming in that you want the tactile but at a lesser output. So its easy to load a different pre-tuned profile exactly for that purpose.

Once you get to grips with it you discover it's not that complicated at all. "
 
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