Tips for racing against the AI

Discussion in 'Automobilista' started by Lorencini, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. schlitty

    schlitty

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    Good point about the different types of tires. I think it would be somewhat safe to assume (but still assume) the AI would more ummm 'robotic-like' handle the tire wear easier though. And in turn, get less affected by it because of their predictable behvior. Like say the way they formerly handled spinouts and crashes in AMS was in video game terms; "godlike" before Reiza tweaked that fairly recently. It surpassed human ability. There's not really much to sugar coat, the AI is indeed very predictable and also lacking in some areas. And that's coming from a guy who only plays singleplayer for well over 100hrs now. There's enough there for me personally and I can take it as is. But, to put it nicely, its also at a level it can only get better. It HAS only gotten better though! I'm confident that trend will continue. :)
     
  2. Alex Sawczuk

    Alex Sawczuk
    Reiza Studios

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    You seem to have misunderstood me, towards the end of a race the fuel levels should be similar to qualifying, but the tyres more worn.
     
  3. David Wright

    David Wright

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    The AI tyre wear is independent of the player tyre wear. You can make them more affected by tyre wear than the player if you choose. Of course some players will wear their tyres quicker than others through their driving style. Its not a simple job to match player and AI tyre wear.
     
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  4. PieterN

    PieterN
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    Hi David, how can we do that for the V8 Supercars for instance ?
     
  5. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins

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    I didn't misunderstand you--just wanted 100% confirmation that you were saying the opposite of the OP. That the AI do experience, and slow down, due to tire wear.
     
  6. David Wright

    David Wright

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    OOPS - I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. I work with isiMotor2 physics files which are not encypted, and forget that AMS files are encrypted. I'm afraid the only people who can adjust them is Reiza.

    If you are using a mod, then look for the line AIWear= in the tbc file and increase it.
     
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  7. Alex Sawczuk

    Alex Sawczuk
    Reiza Studios

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    Yes, the AI certainly wears it's tyres and slows down as a result.
     
  8. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    @Alex Sawczuk, first of all, thanks for joining the conversation. It's always nice to have a team member talking with us about AMS.

    Everything I've posted so far is based on my experience with the sim. I'm playing AMS non-stop almost all 2016, did some league racing, but almost all my time spent on it is offline.

    Thanks for your info about the AI tyre wear. I'm gonna slightly change the OP to reflect your input. I'm gonna make even more tests about this issue (problably put tyre wear X3, and turn off fuel consumption and change AIMistakes parameter to zero to eliminate those variables, and check AI lap times). Until then, I keep my opinion about it, since it's working pretty well to me so far.

    Second, would you give your opinion about the other matters in OP? I really would like to know if my conclusions are somewhat in the right path. This could be a good thing for the community.

    Last but not least, please do not take my observations the hard way. I'm not here to criticize AMS; I really like the sim, I play it almost every day. I just want to share some info I've gathered so far, so people that play single-player like me can overcome some issues about AMS and take the most fun out of if. I'm sure I'm having a great time playing it, no question about it.

    Regards!
     
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  9. Alex Sawczuk

    Alex Sawczuk
    Reiza Studios

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    AI is not really my department, I don't extensively test them so I can't answer your questions. I just corrected what I had confirmed for sure. There is definitely AI tyre wear.
     
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  10. Renato Simioni

    Renato Simioni
    Reiza Studios Premium

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    Firstly thanks to the OP for taking the time to test it so thoroughly and posting such detailed feedback :) Some of the issues we´re aware of and should be able to address as we do some further AI code work in the upcoming months.

    With regards to tire wear, as Alex says the AI tire wear functions do indeed feature, and they´re generally slightly higher than the player´s - easy to tell running a F-Reiza race with 7x tire wear for instance, their lap times will drop off very quickly as will the player. When testing for AI tire wear is also important to keep track progression set to none, otherwise the increased track grip as the rubber builds up might offset losses from tire wear in cars where tire wear is not as extreme.

    As you note though AI physics have some custom parameters so the AI may be affected by the tire wear differently to the player. Players themselves might also vary as to how their performance is affected by tire wear - one might lose more time for instance simply because he´s not as used running on worn rubber as he is on new ones.

    If you do find specific cars that seem to have a very clear discrepancy in AI performance with or without tire wear, please let us know about it, preferably in our official forum so we can review it :thumbsup:
     
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  11. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    Thanks @Renato Simioni for your feedback and your tips for testing the AI. Didn't really thought about track progression, definelly gonna turn it off in my tests. Depending on the results, I will surely rewrite some tips in the OP, which mainly focus on how to set up all parameters (both in-game and in PLR) to have the best experience when running long races, in order to have a very competitive, close race with pitstops and time scale.

    I like to run with Stock Car Brasil and MCR2000 (with Endurance Brasil skinpack), and also Boxer Cup and SuperV8 as well. I've took my conclusions based on those cars. I will take this week (and problably the next too) to refine my tests using these classes in official tracks.

    In conclusion, I did post this same OP in Reiza forums. I'm gonna update it there when I have news.

    Regars from Brasil :)
     
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  12. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    New info to OP:

    First Event Issue

    I've noticed that in the first ever session I enter after starting AMS, the AI runs slower lap times. Then, if I quit session, go back to menu screen, and re-enter the same race (same AI%, same parameters), AI gets back to its original performance, and immediately runs 1-2 seconds faster, depending on track/car combo. After that, while AMS is still open, AI retains its best performance. But if you close AMS and open it again, the first event will experience slower AI.
     
  13. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    @Alex Sawczuk and @Renato Simioni , you may want to take a look at it.

    Yesterday I finally could spare some time to do my tests. So, I did the same race I had 3 days ago (Endurance Brasil @ Autopolis), since I was already trained.

    Race was set for 30 minutes, with a 30 minutes qualifying session.
    I change some setting according to Renato's suggestion and completelly turn off Track Usage and Track Progression, to avoid the track rubbering's extra grip to mask AI times somehow.
    Also set Fuel Usage to X2 to force a pit window with MCR in the specified time, and set Tyre Wear to normal, to check it's relevance in AI lap times.

    A note for clarification: the Endurance Brasil skinpack consists of multiclass racing with MR18 and MCR2000. I've raced with MCR2000, and ran a qualifying session first to ensure the two grids will be fully separated in race start, thus preventing one class mess with other's lap times. (I explain this tip in the OP).

    The picture below shows my findings:

    AMS-AI-Times.png


    In the left column, we have qualifying times. You can skip the first 10 positions (they are MR18 class, don't apply to our test).
    Then, after 11th position, I isolated 4 AI Cars (subjects marked A, B, C, D), which I think could best describe the issue.
    The complete qualifying and race results, laps, gaps, positions for this test race can be found here: http://simresults.net/170119-Xo1

    In the RACE LAPS columns, I isolate race lap times for ours subjects.
    The first two laps can be discarded, since in race start all cars are very close, some AI breaks too much to avoid touch, there's fight for position, etc.

    So, after this phase in race, I've marked in green a reference lap time for each AI. You can notice that, for this car/track combo, lap times are 1s to 1,5 higher than qualy times.

    As the race goes by, you can see that AI lap times start to decrease. Of course, there are some very slower times, due to AI errors, off-tracks, fights for position. But this behaviour is desirable, that's ok.

    Marked in orange are the lap AI performed a pit stop, and the lap after. You can notice that lap times before pit are much faster, closer to qualifying times. Those laps are marked in blue, the same color I've marked qualifying times as well.
    Interesting to notice that subject A could even be 1 tenth of a second FASTER than his qualifying lap. In those laps, AI have very low fuel, they are ligher and get faster times.

    At this point, we can observe another tip of mine: the 'Pit Window'. We can see that, when MCR2000 AI cars reached a 20-30% fuel left window, they initiated their pit stops, and all cars were distributed in a 3-lap Pit Window, problably to split teammates and avoid them to pit at the same time.

    After the pit stops, the AI cars fill up their tanks, which make them heavier. Their lap times as now compatible with race start times (marked as green for better comparison).

    We can clearly see that Tyre Wear have INSIGNIFICANT EFFECT in AI race lap times, close to none.

    This has been happening from a long time ago, in every car and track I tried (being default content or mods). So long that I could notice, test it, and create this system I talk in OP. As a matter of fact, I've been observing this behaviour since GSCE days. But is was worse then, AMS have fixed other important issues (like fuel usage influencing too much lap times, but this is past).

    On the other hand, I've struggle a lot with my tyre wear. Got off-track once. And in my last lap before pitting, my rear-left tyre wear bar marker in HUD was already yellow. I could cleary feel the wearing effects, It was difficult to make long corners, and I almost spin in the harpin in third sector.
    The negative tyre effect superceeds the positive fuel consumption for me.

    So, with all that, I'm standing my position about my tip: to have a fair race against the AI, turn off tyre wear, since with that option on, as race goes by, you're gonna get slower, and AI will be faster, almost to the point of qualifying times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
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  14. PieterN

    PieterN
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    Thanks for testing and writing about this @Lorencini !
     
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  15. Andy_J

    Andy_J
    PC Veteran Gamer and Biker. Premium

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    @Lorencini Much appreciated. So for racing against the AI turn of tyre wear. That is clear enough. Hopefully Rieza will fix this in future updates.
    Cheers.:thumbsup:
     
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  16. P*Funk

    P*Funk

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    I've always felt this way about the AI and tire wear as well. I knew they had tire wear it just was obvious to me that the effect of fuel burn was always much more pronounced and that my pace would always slow as theirs would either remain steady or even increase. This is why I always end up setting AI to a level in longer races that sees me relatively faster than them at the start because I know by the time tire wears sets in my pace will fall as theirs climbs leading to a sort of characteristic early race charge followed by late race defend pattern for me.
     
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  17. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    @P*Funk I use to set AI harder in the beginning just like you, before I begun to play with parameters. I never really like this way tough, because I fell obliged to pass as much cars as I can in race start, in order to create a gap comfortable enough to hold position to the rest of the race.
     
  18. P*Funk

    P*Funk

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    That is definitely how it plays out for me. Some cars are better than others. I've found with the SuperV8 I was much better at managing the tire wear as I got better driving that particular car and I think in many ways I think the AI issue with tire wear is exaggerated by our own amateurish handling of worn tires. That said it would be nice if the level of ai performance could also be matched to a sliding scale of relative competence. Really it would add a lot to the AI if there were some AI cars that represented really professional drivers who were the aces and others who were more inconsistent and who suffered worse under tire wear like the lesser drivers that they are.

    In many respect the overall homogeneity of the AI is part of the issue. Its not just that the AI gets too much faster as their tires wear but that they all behave identically so that everyone's pace increases or decreases in proportion. Would be nice if there was more individuality to the AI so that you felt like you were racing individual opponents with different qualities (meaning AI settings). Would be neat if the guy in front were slowly falling back into your clutches but then the guy behind you starts making a push on you so you have to defend rather than attack.
     
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  19. Lorencini

    Lorencini

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    I think I got what you say. As a matter of fact, I'm no alien, but I'm no "Forza player" either. I've raced simracing championships for 2 years in Brazil (www.f1bc.com), and when training with my team (real-life racers included), normally my tyre wear was on team's average. So I think there could be some margin for adjustment in that area.

    In respesct to the rest of your post, I agree. It's true we have talent files to try to configure different 'personalities' of drivers (I indeed edit them in my Endurance Brasil skinpack), but even that is not enough in today's AMS to configure what you suggest. That would be a nice feature in game, for sure.
     
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  20. Pudu

    Pudu

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    This is a great thread. For a long while now I have been thinking a sticky about improving the single player experience would be a good thing.

    One thing I've done is copy unabashedly Keith Windsor's amazing work from his fantastic 1988 season and use the same idea, albeit in a cheap and dirty ghetto manner, to give fairly believable performance differences between AI. I find talent files alone don't really make a noticeable difference.
    Just make an _Upgrades.ini file for a few teams at the top of the grid, and a few teams at the bottom of the grid and then play around with these settings:

    UpgradeType="Engine Power Changes"
    {
    UpgradeLevel="Engine Power Change"
    {
    HDV=[ENGINE]
    HDV=GeneralTorqueMult=1.1
    HDV=GeneralPowerMult=1.1
    }
    }

    UpgradeType="Drag Tests"
    {
    UpgradeLevel="Drag"
    {
    Description="Drag"
    HDV=[BODYAERO]
    HDV=BodyDragBase=(0.250)
    }
    }
    You don't even need to mess about with the midfield. I've used this for a '94 season of a certain championship (which shall remain nameless, Bernie) and it works very well. I wish I had the time, patience, and talent that Keith possesses to do it properly, but given how quick it is to bang up these few files, it works surprisingly well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
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