The SimFeedback-AC DIY Motion Simulator thread

sjb266 · Sep 17, 2018

Hey guys. Thought I’d create a thread for those taking the plunge into this brilliant DIY project..
I will be starting mine soon and I know there are others thinking about it.. so feel free to share your knowledge and experiences so we can all enjoy this platform to its full potential. A huge thanks to the developers who have really knocked this one out of the park!

Website: https://opensfx.com/2019/02/20/welcome-to-our-new-site/

Github: https://github.com/SimFeedback/SimFeedback-AC-Servo/wiki

For all the internals for the actuator contact Amy - skye@ntl-bearing.com
She can supply everything you need. Just remind her you want the ends of the shafts chamfered and make sure she sends the right sized ball screw - we have had a couple of issues reported. She is very helpful though and the cost is pretty good.

Huge thanks to @RowanH for writing a comprehensive user guide which can be accessed here - https://www.rowanhick.com/sfx-100-build-and-running-guide

In addition, @anton_Chez has contributed a list of post numbers for some of the important settings etc..
Post #320 SFX-100 thread
Post #327 SFX-100 thread for Discord correlation
Post #339 SFX-100 thread
Post #418 SFX-100 thread
Post #424 SFX-100 thread
Post #439 SFX-100 thread
Post #449 SFX-100 thread
Post #517 SFX-100 thread
Post #554 SFX-100 thread
Post #580 SFX-100 thread
Post #826 SFX-100 thread
Post #837 SFX-100 thread
Post #864,866,867,868,870,887,889,897 SFX-100 thread
Post #911,914 SFX-100 thread
Post #988,992,998 SFX-100 thread
Post #1147 SFX-100 thread
Post #1492 SFX-100 thread
Post #1511,1517 SFX-100 thread

I will try to keep this page updated with links to source the parts in other parts of the world. Just post whatever links you have and i'll add them here.

Please note: Not all the parts listed below are essential for the project. For the essential parts refer to the original shopping list.

Australia:

Thanks to @AussieSim for the following links:

10A power lead(s) * 4
https://www.jaycar.com.au/2m-black-mains-extension-lead/p/PS4152

Top quality wire stripper
https://sydneytools.com.au/product/boxo-cutws205-multifunction-wire-stripper

RCD/safety switch power block
https://www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-4-outlet-heavy-duty-portable-safety-switch_p4420028

WD-40 lithium grease for the ball screws
https://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-300g-high-performance-white-lithium-grease_p6100408

Vibration pads
https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-100-x-12-5mm-rubber-anti-vibration-mat-4-pack_p3961547

WD-40 Dry PTFE spray for the slider (free shipping)
https://au.rs-online.com/mobile/p/lubricants/7577134/

Arduino Leonardo (free shipping + frequent 10-15% off discount)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/a000057/arduino-corporation

DB25 cables * 4 (free shipping)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ak401-2/assmann-wsw-components-inc

PETG * 3 (free shipping)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/petg17bk1/mg-chemicals

WAGO-like connectors to avoid a breadboard (perhaps use genuine ones if you are doing 240V AC)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32906719488.html

D-Sub breakout boards * 4
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32297675967.html

3D printer Creality Ender-3 Pro
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32918302452.html

Wires from Arduino to D-Sub breakout (remove black plastic from the WAGO end)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32887680826.html

Crimp connectors for AC wire leads
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32813550981.html

Davidhatton · Jul 15, 2019

I have 4 aura teansducers in chasiss mode using simvibe atatched to my P1 rig and never realy got good sensations from them ( i think i was trying to mix too many events at once) i thinking of removing them when i fit the sfx100 to my rig then see if i need to put them on my seat in rpm and gear change mode if i feel im still missing something.

I already have an active belt tensioner running with simtools so that plus motion might be enough and as said in other posts noise can be an issue with transducers and my team boss(wife) complains when i have tactile running so im hoping that the sfx is a lot more silent than 4 thansducers in chassis mode.

Mr Latte · Jul 16, 2019

jv8 said:
I’m curious about multiple exciters on a seat. When I’m strapped in my (real) race car I tend to feel “one with the car”... it’s not like I would feel a buzz only in my upper right shoulder. I guess it’s up to the software to blend all the interaction between contact points.

It just seems to me that BK transducers on the sim chassis itself would model by default how a car transmits vibes from one corner of the chassis into the seat/driver (and also feet + hands).

But I haven’t experienced a multiple transducer seat so I don’t know. Just trying to wrap my head around the concept.

The vibes for effects placed in the shoulders will still transmit across the whole seat. Just as effects for the lower spine will travel across the seat as well. The reason of using multiple zones is that we detect the primary energy of individual effects better when we use more points of body contact.

If we take the traditional approach, lets say a BK unit installed to the bottom or back of the seat. We then have multiple effects being generated via this unit. It will likely rely on one primary point of energy/contact for the seat and to one main body region as its energy disperses over the whole seat. Another factor is how multiple effects can reduce the felt sensations and detailing which depends on the effects being used, the frequencies they share and the activity of the effects.

A good comparison to make is using "SPEED" and "RPM" as these both are very constant in their operation. Now the effect I have for speed is much better than the crappy "wind noise" effect that Simvibe uses. With my own effect you can really feel the energy build as the cars speed increases. It adds to the drama quite a lot.

So when we place "RPM" layers with this for the tactile unit to generate both effects. We can run into problems with the detailing and what often can happen with these highly constant effects is an annoying knocking felt sensation. The single tactile unit seems like it is struggling to generate both effects as the timing and frequencies required may be very different and is very demanding, possibly going beyond the units abilities. Not sure if this is partly linked to a (piston based model)

In comparison
Placing "SPEED" in shoulders works very well, with then having the "RPM" placed into the spine region. Now this time, both these constant effects are being generated on individual units we get the full detailing. We no longer have a clash with the knocking sensation, also this is now 4 units being used to offer a wider spread of the effects over the seat and using additional body zones for increased direct detection. The other benefit is that you now have each unit offering more detail with mid-high frequencies that the recommend exciter can produce much better.

Being able to feel each gear rev up to the max RPM and this reach into the spine but then also to feel the energy of the speed building and building in the top section of the seat. Its really quite awesome combo with a well balanced volume for each.

While a large BK unit can produce much stronger bass, it is only a single unit. Increase its output too high in the attempt to get a better spread of its effects across the whole seat and often we then have too much energy or discomfort in the primary point of contact where it is installed.

BK units are a bit crap in comparison to the exciters for 60Hz + and above. Beyond this is what matters a lot for effects especially RPM and SPEED giving each effect more liveliness.

So which do you think is going to feel better for immersion?
The BKs primary benefit is the ability to give much stronger low bass, no denying that but it brings this with the limitations one unit has and at the expense of generating much less mid-high frequency detailing.

Good effects are also key and this is another factor as many still use Simvibe as their main go to software.

Wmacky · Jul 16, 2019

I'm going to pick up 6 of these exciters and a couple 4 channel amps to give this a go. I also need to figure out what would be the best option for the pedal deck, and perhaps how to incorporate a lower freq LFE type driver into the seat mix. Single or stereo I wonder? Where on the seat would the larger transducers go? Mr Latte, have you given thought as to adding these options while still keeping the system reasonably priced?

Mr Latte · Jul 16, 2019

Moved to other thread.....

saxxon66 · Jul 16, 2019

You guys should discuss the tactile specific setup in the appropriated dedicated threads.

But one thing related to tactile and motion is that motion will cancel out some tactile effects.

One example is the gear shift.
For motion this is mapped to the pitch of the plattform. It is a very short peak in acceleration. You can tune it that hard that it will give you some sore neck after some laps.
This force cancle out my shaker gear shift effect mostly.

Turning the motion off I can feel the tactile gear shift again.

There is definitely a relation between motion and tactile, so you need to keep that in mind.

jv8 · Jul 16, 2019

Saxxon66 - I think people like myself are trying to understand how tactile fits into an SFX build. I’ve seen people sell their complete SimVibe setup after going SFX. Others are loading up more exciters. It’s interesting to hear how it works together with SFX motion.

Wmacky · Jul 16, 2019

BTW, I have recently printed most of the larger parts with no warping at all. This with a cheap Wahoo printer. For those about to print, I think this is due to 3 key Items along with using the general recommended settings'

1 When leveling, get the nozzle as close to the bed as possible without tearing apart the print.. It was lightly dragging on a single thin paper sheet.
2. Scrubbing the bed with alcohol, and wiping on a layer Aqua Net Hairspray between each part print.
3 Heating the bed to 60C on the first layer, then backing down to 45C after.

I put off doing the 3D printing for longer than I should have due to apprehension about the warping issues. I think I got lucky and hit the right combination of things to do after a little research. I hope this helps someone out.

saxxon66 · Jul 16, 2019

Here is the dedicated tactile and SFX thread

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/sfx-tactile.165366/

Mr Latte · Jul 16, 2019

saxxon66 said:
You guys should discuss the tactile specific setup in the appropriated dedicated threads.

But one thing related to tactile and motion is that motion will cancel out some tactile effects.

One example is the gear shift.
For motion this is mapped to the pitch of the plattform. It is a very short peak in acceleration. You can tune it that hard that it will give you some sore neck after some laps.
This force cancle out my shaker gear shift effect mostly.

Turning the motion off I can feel the tactile gear shift again.

There is definitely a relation between motion and tactile, so you need to keep that in mind.

Hi, I moved my last response to the other thread as indeed the topic/questions kept coming back.
Really interested to get views and feedback from people in how we best combine both but indeed the discussion is best placed in its own place. Nobody bothered to help explain how/what SFX does or brings in that other thread so clearly it is an area people are not clear about or just can't be bothered with.

In this thread, I have read reports of people saying how good SFX is for feeling the smallest of road details, to curbs to bumps. Pardon my confusion, I originally presumed this was SFX based tactile. It seems that this is not tactile effects in operation that the SFX has but the energy from the physical movement of the motion being generated that people are referring to?

We see VAST differences in what some peoples perspectives or user experiences are with tactile. So its also very easy for some people to base what they have experienced as what is typically possible with it. Much confusion over it and just a deep topic in general.

A Gearshift is a good example too and you raise an interesting point. I don't know what tactile you are using or where it is installed based on your own experiences with this.

Query:
How does a user feel tactile for shifts, when the energy from the motion may be greater than the energy of vibration felt from the tactile unit? Indeed it could get lost I totally agree but this will depend on the user's installation, the effects they use and the hardware they have installed.

May I presume that many SFX users here, still use Simvibe and will have gearshifts going to units on CM and these installed to the 4 corner regions. Some people will only use EM or will add a unit for the seat and a unit for a shifter via both CM & EM modes.

Going Beyond The Norm:
The difference with the proposed exciter configuration is that the tactile is direct in the seat at body regions that are sensitive. If desired we can place the shift effect to all 6 units at once. I even have beta effects that operate differently for up/down shifts and with their own unique felt sensations. Something I always wanted and I don't think any other tactile based software currently makes possible?

Upshifts:
For upshifts the spine channels are mainly good enough to let the effect be felt. Anyone here with a BK unit or other attached to the lower back of their seat. I presume can still feel gearshifts fine with the SFX motion okay? Is that the case, why are you not feeling them? I dont know if owners of the largest BK units have the same issue you are having neither. It would be good to have confirmation from owners what their experiences are in losing the felt tactile when motion activity and energy may drown it out.

We can in SSB control effects operation much easier and better than Simvibe does with CM/EM.
It is very easy to include an upshift to also be felt for example from underneath the seat as well as the spine. This can be done in realtime, in a matter of seconds. A user does not have to manually generate a new layer, input all the settings again manually, like in the way Simvibe becomes a real pain in the arse to use or do simple things like having effects operate on various channels.

Downshifts:
I wanted a more dramatic sensation for these....
So firstly by using compressed RPM layers that are active when changing down gears. This gives each downshift a nice rich RPM burst feel (if the RPM goes above 70%). I have even tested effects for downshifts that have the primary energy for the spine region and it shift/fade to the side and shoulder channels. It's just simple usage of using multiple body regions for wider felt imaging of an effect in the seat.

I don't think the issue you raise is one that may still be an issue with this proposed concept, the fact it uses direct contact vibrations to multiple body zones. Also, the potential we have with SSB or the creativity we can apply to even simple effects like a gearshift is not the same as typical installations or limited in the way most may already have with Simvibe or SSW.

I am keen to find out how we best combine each but also adding detailed and immersive tactile sensations to physical applications like a seat harness or G Seat. Again not possible with Simvibe but can be achieved with SSB and creativity in effects development and operation.

Can't speak for others but for me its all rather intriguing and exciting. Will be some while yet before my own build has SFX motion up and running.

Black_rat · Jul 16, 2019

For me SFX replaced tactile almost totally, I had SC4 Chassis mode and 2 transducers in extension mode, SFX does everything for me except RPM as far as Tactile goes. RPM on wheel and extension mode only under pedals and seat.

HugoB · Jul 16, 2019

When I turn up tactile RPM too much it drowns out the fine road texture details of the SFX100 system, actually any tactile for me disrupts the fine texture details of SFX100, so I’ve limited my two Buttkickers Concert to RPM only, and tuned the power down to the point where I can just feel engine RPM in the whole rig (including steering wheel) but it is the absolute minimum possible power, so as not to distract from the finer motion cues.

Cote Dazur · Jul 16, 2019

Let say someone is mainly interested in duplicating the feeling we have when driving irl of the car bouncing on the suspension. More than feeling the g’s.
To have the best feeling of the car moving on its suspension, is 2dof enough or do we need 3dof?

C64 · Jul 16, 2019

I have a seatbelt tensioner driven by a Sfx100 actuator and simfeedback ( thanks Steve D for lending me the actuator and Servo ), I have rigged it up to pull both shoulder and lap straps. It is great for providing braking force, not so effective for acceleration but surprisingly effective for gear changes, the momentary deceleration during the gear shift comes through as a very short pulse in the straps and adds a lot. I don’t have any other tactile other than rpm and rumble provided by sfx100.

anton_Chez · Jul 17, 2019

A person wondering why tactile isn't talked about with SFX that doesn't have the platform built yet will understand very quickly once they try it. The curb feel does not come from tactile, it comes from natural operation of the actuators through motion telemetry. There is almost nothing the platform benefits from by using the limited tactile capabilities, except for RPM. I tried it last night and I think it's safe to say if you have even a single decent tactile unit it's better to use that with Simhub (free) than use the tactile from the actuators.

Anything else people might think they can extract via tactile out of the actuators is killed when you realise there is no directional output or separation of effects. For the most part, it may as well not even exist for most users.

Good to have? Sure. Most people using it? I don't think many are at all.

Tim Palmgren · Jul 17, 2019

Agreed, the SFX100 actuators are capable of such fine detail really the Only thing I am using mine for is a bit more 'body' to gear shifts, RPM and also a bit to simulate tire scrub / wheel lockup, though I am finding that my xbox motors are handling those duties well enough that I would probably recommend those on pedals/seat or smaller exciter pucks at lower wattage rather than bass shakers as the SFX100 pretty capably handles a lot of what you would use a Buttkicker or similar for..

wrxawd123 · Jul 17, 2019

Is there a donation minimum for the simfeedback software expert mode and discord? I was refunded my donation

ThugUK · Jul 17, 2019

wrxawd123 said:
Is there a donation minimum for the simfeedback software expert mode and discord? I was refunded my donation

Its been covered a few times, there is no 'minimum amount' as such, but if the donation is not cost effective, taking into account the extra work then it will be refunded.
As a guide line, Simcommander costs around £60, but has more features.
What is it worth to you? If you had designed the software what would you be happy with?

GFJunky · Jul 17, 2019

I've almost finished wiring everything up, using the shield. Should the shield/Arduino be grounded? I was expecting to due to EMI like I've done with other things like my Teensy button box but the shield doesn't have a obvious ground point so thought it better to ask!
Cheers

growe19 · Jul 18, 2019

UK BUYERS!! Just found a good source for the fastenings at the bottom of the shopping list (see attached). Cheapest I had found online previously was £50.70 delivered from ACCUPRO.

I've just got all of the parts required from South Essex Fasteners in Colchester, UK: https://www.southessexfasteners.com/ for only £21.52

The only difference is the x16 M6x85 motor mount parts are 90mm (not 85) and the shopping list notes that's ok.

I've set up an order on their system so everyone can get the same price (not inc. postage) Just email (colchestersales@southessexfasteners.com) or phone (01206 793 497) and quote ref: 57701. All the parts are on that order ready to ship out to you.