SFX - Tactile

Wmacky

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For those interested!
 
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Mr Latte

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Well first thing that would be useful is screenshots and info on what effects/options/settings the SFX tactile offers.

People sharing, examples of settings they are using or find feel good with each sim would also be interesting to read about.

Some may want to learn what or how we can add typical transducers to the SFX motion to help improve the immersion it offers. One clear example seems to be people having "engine" based effects operating additional tactile.
 
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anton_Chez

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I'll try and get some screens of the effects when I get to the PC later on. From what I can see in the stock profiles there are options for engine RPM, both through independent bass shakers (ala the NLM V3 software that allows the simple use of bass shakers within it's operating software) and obviously through the actuators. There is an actuator rumble effect also which seems to be for rumble strips although I still am yet to pay much attention to it other than knowing it's very intense. There might be another one but I can't remember.

You can add more effects when you make your own profile, dependent on the sim and what it outputs. You need to select these manually and test them to see what actions activate the effect. There is a live output feature that shows activity when the car hits rumble strips, bumps, engine, when all the motion effects are taking place. This lets you know if the effect you've selected is attached to the feedback you are seeking. It's a little confusing but I'm yet to jump into it fully and am still physically optimising my rig. New seat came today so I'll be mounting that soon.

Also, @metalnwood inspired me to go back and see what I could further get out of the Mini LFE's regarding engine RPM and also a few other effects that compliment the SFX-100. I've spent some time testing last night and have actually improved it quite a bit. Rodney also had a conversation with me some months ago that I remembered was still floating in my Discord. I used settings shared in there as a starting point (again) and worked my way to some decent decel force feeling, engine and speed feeling and also am still working on some sort of wheel slide. It seems super sensitive in rF2 so maybe a different title might be a better bet to actually tune them. Then retrofit them into rF2 later.

Tactile software used is Shake It through Simhub. It's really nice to not have to worry about Simvibe and the profiles that require launching or activating. We already have to do that with the SFX-100, the less mucking about the better I reckon. Super customisable tool that offers a lot of options for tactile. For FREE! I must donate I still haven't done so.
 
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Mr Latte

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Discussion and sharing, bringing more understanding can only be a good thing. Let's see who with SFX wants to help or can share more their experiences with the tactile effects SFX has.


Perhaps one aspect to keep in mind when discussing the effects or settings.
Is having settings for certain effects operating range that gives the user a more usable response for the effects role.


Correct Operating Roles
As an example based on some tactile software solutions, if we look at "Wheel Slip" as one effect it is easy to have settings where this is active almost constantly when turning.

Some may use the effect in the wrong manner as they are looking at this effect to represent "road surface" sensations so they may think it's okay to have it operating with very active settings (small telemetry values) upon steering.

Yet if this effect is in relation to actual "wheel slip" not "surface textures" then how I looked at its usage was to have it operating with the "lights" some cars have for showing to the driver when "wheel slip" was active. When altering the activity of the effect via a threshold it is then possible to have this effect only operate when telemetry values are at a specific value before the effect is active. If doing this then we have such an effect become a useful tool to the driver, to aid their driving and improve lap times or tyre-wear.

Its one example that with some effects we can improve their usage by reducing their activity to have them operate in a working range that is more suitable or appropriate for their actual role.

I expect in the settings SFX has for tactile that it can let the user apply similar operating controls, that software like Simvibe, SSW, Shakeit offer.

What would be good is to have an overview of the effects and options possible?
 
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anton_Chez

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1.png


So this is the stock AC profile Saxxon (I think) put together for SFB. There are 3 tactile effects here for tuning, one for dedicated shaker units and two for tactile coming from the actuators themselves. I've only just played with on off effects for the time being. I felt the Rumble Aktuator a little too overbearing at first but it might have been me just getting used to the power of the motors. I haven't really tried it again as I didn't feel the need to add tactile to rumble strips and such with the feedback you already get through the motors themselves via telemetry.

I don't really use the shaker settings at all because I've already gotten accustomed to playing with Simhub and I like the flexibility it offers in effects and also the tuning of those effects. What would be interesting to see is if we can achieve a similar engine output from the actuators compared to a small dedicated bass shaker or butt kicker such as the Mini LFE. I'm sure people that invest much more into their tactile than this would be mostly unimpressed by what the actuators and SFB offer in the way of pure dedicated tactile. Think of that feature as a 'hey cool, I can use my Gamer 2 with this thing', or, 'I was going to grab a pair of ADX transducers for my seat and pedals but now I don't have to since the motion does some tactile as well'. It's a bonus feature in both software and hardware that is a nice addition to a world class motion system. If it means people won't have to worry about investing and installing a budget oriented tactile setup (such as my own, even though the 2 units and the amp run me about 500 bucks, it's nothing compared to even a single proper LFE unit) then that is further saving on top of the full motion platform itself that people can take advantage of.

Look at these telemetry values:

2.png

Notice the scroll bar in the middle of the drop box. There are tonnes. I still don't know what most of them do, but if we can find a value that represents wheel slide in the game and have it come up in the real time monitoring, I'm sure we can assign a tactile effect to that value. I'm still yet to complete my build both in hardware and certainly in software for the time being so I've left this stuff well alone until I have a rainy year to go through it all. But since we are on the topic now again of tactile and a lot of people are completing their SFX-100 builds looking at what to tackle next, I guess it's a good time to open another discussion.

I will say this, however. I was wrong to completely dismiss tactile after I felt what the SFX-100 actuators were capable of. Last night I played for a long time, and will again tonight, with engine effects and also some speed based effects that help fill in the little spaces the actuators leave idle, the few that there are to begin with. It will depend on how you've tuned your ride as well I guess so a more intense ride will most likely always be doing something, but tactile is still an important part of the experience, it's just needed in different areas to a motionless setup or even a motion setup that's not as capable as the SFX-100. I almost am tempted to access a Clarke style transducer with a nice 2 channel amp to fully get the most out of the engine vibes as these are probably the best units for that kind of hz range. Maybe Rodney could point me in the direction of budget oriented Clarke unit and the amp required to run it? I still run the 2 channel SMSL amp and find it amazing for what I need it for. I have one spare now as I've removed 2 units from the overall setup.

Another thing I am unsure of is how the actuators handle hz values. Something I need to learn more about I guess.
 

Mr Latte

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Thanks for covering so much understand you are just getting into all this.
Some have had several months with SFX so maybe others can expand more on What you showed.

Can someone show/share settings from a popular profile for one of the better experiences with SFX that has good tactile working.
 
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metalnwood

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There is very little in SFX specifically for what we think of as a tactile effect when comparing to simhub, simvibe etc. Just the engine rpm and rumble strips. Rumble strips work but engine rpm didn't feel good enough hence why I was looking for a way to use my four existing LFE's.

As I mentioned in the other thread, there is a lot of energy when you have something that can ragdoll around a 105kg man and another 80kg for the rig. The problem with all of this going on is that there seems to be little left for the senses to pick up whats happening with the transducers except when there is little motion going on. In those times the SFX still gives you road texture but with the real feeling of your suspension so things like engine rpm are ideal things to fill in with tactile.

Now my only issue is that my setup of 4 LFE's is not fantastic for this but in terms of your average guy, from what I read, it's certainly not a below average setup. I am getting the feeling that it may not cut it as its overpowered by the rest. Anton, I am very keen to see your simhub setting for your lfe's and engine settings as I use simhub for tactile and wind.
 
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Mr Latte

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There is very little in SFX specifically for what we think of as a tactile effect when comparing to simhub, simvibe etc. Just the engine rpm and rumble strips. Rumble strips work but engine rpm didn't feel good enough hence why I was looking for a way to use my four existing LFE's.

As I mentioned in the other thread, there is a lot of energy when you have something that can ragdoll around a 105kg man and another 80kg for the rig. The problem with all of this going on is that there seems to be little left for the senses to pick up whats happening with the transducers except when there is little motion going on. In those times the SFX still gives you road texture but with the real feeling of your suspension so things like engine rpm are ideal things to fill in with tactile.

Now my only issue is that my setup of 4 LFE's is not fantastic for this but in terms of your average guy, from what I read, it's certainly not a below average setup. I am getting the feeling that it may not cut it as its overpowered by the rest. Anton, I am very keen to see your simhub setting for your lfe's and engine settings as I use simhub for tactile and wind.
Okay so is it fair to say SFX is currently limited in effects it can output well, but the ones it does like (curbs/rumble strips) it does a really good job with? One screenshot shows "Hz" and other info but just to be clear can you confirm how or in what way can you set an effect to generate a specific Hz range? If this is possible shed some more light on what frequency ranges you guys are using please.

If energy from the SFX can mask out what the transducer based tactile are doing then we need to look at how/where the tactile units are installed.

Having the tactile enter into the seat/pedals from a different location/path to how/where the SFX tactile does would also help. With the idea of looking to pinpoint specific body regions (shoulders,spine,under-knees,sides). This way it becomes more detectable than the traditional installation with units coming up through the base of the seat or via seat supports only.

Close proximity installation to the seat/pedals should be more ideal and help increase the felt sensation of the separate transducer tactile. Although depending on what is being installed/used we still have to factor achieving a balance in energy output between both to help ensure the SFX based tactile isn't drowning out everything else.

We then want to have the transducer based tactile operate with its own effects and these use different frequencies and sensations than the SFX tactile is outputting.
 

anton_Chez

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Not sure how the hz is felt with the SFX. I only saw the hz value not too long ago, maybe a couple of days. I've never really dived into the tactile side of it other than click 'enable' and know that it works. As long as I have tactile units I still think I'd rather use these for the small effects I need them for rather than have the actuators doing everything unnecessarily.

I will have a play with them though. This weekend I am planning a massive tuning session now that pretty much all of my hardware is installed and exactly where I want it. I want to finalise (really...?) the software and effects side of things and then finally just get back to enjoying racing and learning to get quicker. There's always that feeling in the back of my mind that has me thinking I've still got things I want to test and try out. I really want to get away from that and start actually understanding the other part of sim racing... the RACING! The car, setups, reading telemetry, learning where there is time on the track to be gained, etc etc.

I will give some feedback once I've been through it all both in tactile and general motion profiles.
 
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metalnwood

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Agreed, I am not even planning to look at the SFX stuff that is tactile only.

Even for the two things supported there is also a direct option for driving a transducer.

The way I am seeing it, a moving platform like the SFX that is as quick as it is can replicate what is really happening to the car by moving the rig in the same manner as the car moving.

When I do the first corner at watkins glen and nail the apex and the suspension compresses and jumps back out the SFX replicates this in the same was as it happened to the car. There is no need to figure out how to give a tactile sensation to tell me what is happening.

I am coming to the conclusion that if a force that is applied to the body as a result of the chassis moving through suspension etc, then nothing needs to be added.

Something else like RPM is another kettle of fish, the SFX is now not naturally simulating this like it does for other chassis movements so tactile seems like the ideal solution.
 

Mr Latte

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A few months later with no posts on the subject at all.

July 2019 in response to this post on the SFX thread regards a multi-channel tactile exciter configuration for a seat.

I'm going to pick up 6 of these exciters and a couple 4 channel amps to give this a go. I also need to figure out what would be the best option for the pedal deck, and perhaps how to incorporate a lower freq LFE type driver into the seat mix. Single or stereo I wonder? Where on the seat would the larger transducers go? Mr Latte, have you given thought as to adding these options while still keeping the system reasonably priced?
For me at this time, the primary focus is getting a seat to feature multiple effects at once, yet all the effects still being recognised. I use the exciters on the side of the seat for directional effects. An example of this is using a wobble type sensation for Lateral G. This can be designed to create its own unique character compared to other effects. So when in operation its easily felt, even when both the primary constant effects like RPM and SPEED are also operating. The side units can also be used for bump detailing or wheel slip. We are not limiting each unit to only one effect and still some work needed in testing as to determine exactly which effects to group on the different channels.

While a user can of course change this, I want profiles ready to go that let users enjoy it from the get go. All they will need to do is set suitable volumes based on the amps/soundcards they own. The focus is on the seat for now but yes pedals can also be used for effects too but are more limited in body contact.

Yes we can also add additional tactile and it work in conjunction with this concept. This could be a large BK unit designated to act like a subwoofer for low Hz on multiple effects. So yes we can use them for much greater low bass and have individual effects layers for them like idle/inertia/max RPM scenarios for engines.

Again at the moment the focus is on the exciters and building the effects to work on them with the fixed configuration.

We need a fixed platform first for development of the effects being created then people can do their own thing with added units if they want.
 
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jv8

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anton_Chez, what did you end up with for tactile with SFX?

I'm building my first rig so I don't think I'm at Mr Latte's level just yet with the multi-zone directional effects. I just want to add basic mono RPM and maybe a speed effect to the SFX. The SFX + GS5 should already have some good directional cues.
 

Flag Ghost

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I have SFX + GS5 and I ended up with the following tactile setup:
1 BK Concert on lower back of seat > RPM / Speed
1 Aura Pro underneath seat > wheel slip / lockup
1 BK Concert under pedal plate > RPM / wheel slip / lockup
2 Aura Pro's on pedal bracket > RPM / Speed

I only use the GS-5 for lateral and surge g-force. IMO it's not good for bumps, etc.. Working on designing an active seat belt tensioner for the next SFX release! Then.. I'M DONE < yeah right
 

Mr Latte

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I have SFX + GS5 and I ended up with the following tactile setup:
1 BK Concert on lower back of seat > RPM / Speed
1 Aura Pro underneath seat > wheel slip / lockup
1 BK Concert under pedal plate > RPM / wheel slip / lockup
2 Aura Pro's on pedal bracket > RPM / Speed

I only use the GS-5 for lateral and surge g-force. IMO it's not good for bumps, etc.. Working on designing an active seat belt tensioner for the next SFX release! Then.. I'M DONE < yeah right
You are bonkers if you just settle with that....
With the right effects, this has some great potential.

If it were me, I would ditch the Aura pro for the seat and add 4 exciters on the base panels and place another 4 for the back panels of the GS5. Man the effects you could feel with those bringing much more detail in RPM could be brill and with the added energy in the BK Concert.

What I can't understand is why people that go after pressure based immersion in belt tensioners and a seat like the GS5. Then seem to have no interest for vibrational sensations to work in conjunction with those forces. Be this for lateral G in steering and speed based loads or acceleration and deceleration detailing.


Example: 6 layer tactile sensations for "Lateral G" Fully accurate, stereo for steering input (curving) and increasing/decreasing G

I can greatly enjoy G based effects on a static rig, give them their own unique feel and only wish I was able to apply them with pressure-based immersion. It's not about trying to use the tactile to do what the seat panels already do in using tactile for "load depression", Its about adding additional character for when the effect is operating to the forces of energy the panel is placing on the user.
 
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Flag Ghost

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Mr Latte,
I'm going to have to stick with my current hardware for now but am very interested in some of the curving effects you are working with at some point in the future. I do have to note that when I had more transducers on the left / right / corners of the rig there wasn't enough isolation between left and right to really feel the separation. Front / Rear yes, Left / Right no. I guess if you had a bunch of exciters directly under your butt, above the seat brackets, then it would be doable.
 

jv8

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Jun 10, 2019
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I have SFX + GS5 and I ended up with the following tactile setup:
1 BK Concert on lower back of seat > RPM / Speed
1 Aura Pro underneath seat > wheel slip / lockup
1 BK Concert under pedal plate > RPM / wheel slip / lockup
2 Aura Pro's on pedal bracket > RPM / Speed

I only use the GS-5 for lateral and surge g-force. IMO it's not good for bumps, etc.. Working on designing an active seat belt tensioner for the next SFX release! Then.. I'M DONE < yeah right
What software do you use to drive the tactile?

I’m also planning to use the GS5 for only surge and sway. Seems like a great fit for sustained G but not quick transients.
 

Flag Ghost

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What software do you use to drive the tactile?

I’m also planning to use the GS5 for only surge and sway. Seems like a great fit for sustained G but not quick transients.
I was a longtime user of SimVibe but have transitioned to SimHub < Highly recommended. Your correct.. for sustained G force it is great! I would use the GS-5 for everything IF I didn't have other motion and would rate it higher than a seat mover for a primary motion solution.... BUT it takes a back seat to four corner solutions with heave ability like SFX / DBox.
 

anton_Chez

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I use the 2 BK Mini LFE's from pre SFX build and 4 exciters on the seat I recently got. 2 20W ones and 2 40W ones. I'd get 40W for all if I did it again.
 

Wmacky

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A few months later with no posts on the subject at all.

July 2019 in response to this post on the SFX thread regards a multi-channel tactile exciter configuration for a seat.



For me at this time, the primary focus is getting a seat to feature multiple effects at once, yet all the effects still being recognised. I use the exciters on the side of the seat for directional effects. An example of this is using a wobble type sensation for Lateral G. This can be designed to create its own unique character compared to other effects. So when in operation its easily felt, even when both the primary constant effects like RPM and SPEED are also operating. The side units can also be used for bump detailing or wheel slip. We are not limiting each unit to only one effect and still some work needed in testing as to determine exactly which effects to group on the different channels.

While a user can of course change this, I want profiles ready to go that let users enjoy it from the get go. All they will need to do is set suitable volumes based on the amps/soundcards they own. The focus is on the seat for now but yes pedals can also be used for effects too but are more limited in body contact.

Yes we can also add additional tactile and it work in conjunction with this concept. This could be a large BK unit designated to act like a subwoofer for low Hz on multiple effects. So yes we can use them for much greater low bass and have individual effects layers for them like idle/inertia/max RPM scenarios for engines.

Again at the moment the focus is on the exciters and building the effects to work on them with the fixed configuration.

We need a fixed platform first for development of the effects being created then people can do their own thing with added units if they want.

That all sounds great. I'm going to go forward and purchase 6 of the 40W exciters and a couple of those 4 channel Behringer amps. I do like the idea of a single larger BK at the seat in a sub woofer role to compliment the 40W exciters, and do want a least one transducer at the pedals. I guess I need to wait on the Pedal, and "seat subwoofer" transducers until it is determined which ones would work best in this role. I assume it would be safe to go ahead and purchase a Behringer NX3000D to drive these additional tactile drivers, once they are decided upon.