read more: FFB Tweaks

I've worked with x4fab to add a new feature to the Custom Shaders Patch (as of 0.1.51) and the description is fairly brief so I thought it's worth going into a bit more detail about what this does.

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Gyro Implementation

[ ] Active check to enable
Strength 25% adjust effect strength
AC has an "Experimental Gyro" FFB effect whose purpose was adding gyroscopic effects to the steering. It never lost the experimental tag and all it's generally recommended for is damping down oscillations on direct drive wheels.
This is that, developed slightly further based on my understanding of the nature of gyroscopic forces. I have a pretty solid case for making this change, and I believe this force exists in actual cars, and AC's original experimental gyro does not.

The developed version still suits the purpose of damping oscillations, but more importantly it decouples the body from the front wheels - so if the front wheels are pointing in a direction and the body moves around them, no gyroscopic precession happens, and no force is generated. Concretely, what we're talking about here is oversteer - on the original experimental gyro, the force acts counter to self-alignment during oversteer. With this new implementation, self-alignment is allowed to occur freely, or, if the oversteer is so quick that the wheels can't self-align, it'll actually push in the direction of alignment.

25% is simply equivalent to the original force multiplier used on experimental gyro when merging it with other FFB forces. Ultimately, the same as the other amplification ffb effects like road and slip effect, the slider is available to magnify it if your hardware's limitations are obscuring the effect.
As of CSP 0.1.53 the strength slider is outdated. A calculation using the suspension geometry now provides the right precession-based force for each car.
The description is a little bit misleading; this replaces "Experimental Gyro" so disabling it is superfluous, if this is Active, experimental gyro is not. Still, it won't hurt to disable experimental gyro and be certain it's off.

Now that I've said what the intent is, I will also note the following: this changes FFB in pretty much every dynamic situation. It's not just an improvement for drift cars or for vintage cars that oversteer constantly; any time the car moves around on the tires it feels slightly different from before. To me, it's a positive change, it's clearer what the car is doing, and I have heard similarly positive comments from testers. Nonetheless, I am not omniscient, I have not driven all these cars in real life, it's up to you to decide whether it improves your game or gives you better sim feeling the rubber or what. Modifying games to improve the FFB is a fine tradition starting with some extremely thorough efforts in rfactor1, and this is no different (maybe a bit easier to install).

I will note that it slightly increases max forces when cornering so if you have stuff set up to barely clip, you'll need an adjustment downward in global ffb mult.

Range Compression

Range compression 100% - 100% is the "default off" of this effect
[ ] Range compression assist - check to convert cars' "steer assist" into range compression.

New FFB Tweak available as of 0.1.53. The name comes from the audio world, where dynamic range compression means bringing up the quiet sounds while leaving loud sounds at their original volume. This is a much more second derivative friendly version of the Gamma effect.

The percentage is straightforward: Set it to how much you want to multiply small forces. Or adjust it in sync with your overall gain if you want to maintain the level of small forces and change large forces. For example, 200% compression + 50% gain = original 100% on small forces, larger forces decrease. If you're curious, the curve at the point of maximum force is simply the inverse, 200% compression will cause large forces 50% of the original delta in force. But in combination with 50% gain, you're moving the original maximum force downward and the ceiling before the game clips is much higher.

Think of this like power steering: you only want it to assist the heavy forces and give you maximum feel of the light forces.

This is very much an "adjust to taste" thing, it operates smoothly enough that you're safe running it upward of 300%, and I have seen IRL data indicating that manufacturers effectively go as high as 600% in power steering systems, when they want to bring 20+N forces down to a comfortable 2-3N.

Steer assist is a built in per-car feature of AC that applies a gamma function to that car's FFB. If you check Range compression assist, then FFB Tweaks will calculate an appropriate range compression adjustment, and disable steer assist. This should give you a far more normal FFB feeling (no weird bumps around center) while retaining the original goal of giving high downforce cars enough low-speed FFB to be drivable.
 
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If you make sim wheel behave exactly like steering wheel in the car you will get close to zero information as SOTP and G-Forces are missing.
I think this is all that really needed to be said here...

He's not looking for realistic wheel forces and is thus using unrealistic values, which makes realistic code feel bad. I'm quick in the sim and use 3 times those friction/damping values, even people with G wheels are fast. Once you accept the feel of a given wheel, it makes very little difference.

Also, that isn't how the Simucube driver settings work. I just measured, and 100% friction at 25Nm is around 3-4Nm. 1-2Nm is normal in steering racks on unassisted cars IRL. (i.e. the absolute minimum that could possibly make sense while driving a non-PS car in AC would be 25%, and the maximum 67%).
 
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I think this is all that really needed to be said here...

He's not looking for realistic wheel forces and is thus using unrealistic values, which makes realistic code feel bad. I'm quick in the sim and use 3 times those friction/damping values, even people with G wheels are fast. Once you accept the feel of a given wheel, it makes very little difference.

Also, that isn't how the Simucube driver settings work. I just measured, and 100% friction at 25Nm is around 3-4Nm. 1-2Nm is normal in steering racks on unassisted cars IRL. (i.e. the absolute minimum that could possibly make sense while driving a non-PS car in AC would be 25%, and the maximum 67%).
Yeah, said it better than I could. I guess if you want a specific feel, go ahead and do whatever. The "dynamic damping" stuff is probably a workaround for people who want "fidelity" without breaking their wrists. I thought he was after realism and comparing it directly to IRL.

I don't really agree with it, but each to their own.

Btw, what exactly does damping and friction do in the Simucube's drivers? I remember 30 - 50% is reasonable which is why I said those, but what is it based on? What even is "100%"? Arbitrary value?
 
Yeah, said it better than I could. I guess if you want a specific feel, go ahead and do whatever. The "dynamic damping" stuff is probably a workaround for people who want "fidelity" without breaking their wrists. I thought he was after realism and comparing it directly to IRL.

I don't really agree with it, but each to their own.

Btw, what exactly does damping and friction do in the Simucube's drivers? I remember 30 - 50% is reasonable which is why I said those, but what is it based on? What even is "100%"? Arbitrary value?
Friction is just opposition to input force which is evidently on a scale of 0-4Nm (ish - I think it also scales with the wheel's max torque setting), whatever algorithm it uses is quite good. Damping is pretty hard to say since it's velocity dependent. That one can probably go to the full 25Nm if you get the wheel spinning fast enough, but not really possible to measure that without a dedicated test rig.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

I'm quick in the sim and use 3 times those friction/damping values, even people with G wheels are fast. Once you accept the feel of a given wheel, it makes very little difference.
Honestly haven't seen anyone using such high values with AC or ACC, that just kills micro details, making wheel vague and less responsive (in all situations, not just slides recovery).
But it's your wheel, there is no right or wrong when it comes to personal preferences.
Except in this situation seems like end user is "forced" to use much higher values to counteract effect of "fixed" gyro. That's the problem.
It is literally step back to the level of other sims without Dynamic Damping, sims that people just have to use high damping values with to counteract oscillation and aggressive SAT.
You can as well just turn Gyro effect off completely and have the same result, why even bother with it if you are compensating with high global dampening anyway.
It's a really good conversation, and thanks for chiming it, do you mind continuing on GD board just to get more feedback from SC1 and SC2 users?
 
FWD cars feel really different when enabling fgb tweaks so I turn it off cause I prefer the feeling of the original ffb.
Haven't tested with ks gyro enabled or disabled though.
And you could tell me that this ffb tweak has nothing to do with fwd cars but I believe what I feel from my steering wheel and it's different.
 
FWD cars feel really different when enabling fgb tweaks so I turn it off cause I prefer the feeling of the original ffb.
Haven't tested with ks gyro enabled or disabled though.
And you could tell me that this ffb tweak has nothing to do with fwd cars but I believe what I feel from my steering wheel and it's different.
Well, it has to do with the gyro effect of the spinning wheel, and FWD cars spin the front wheels which are also the steered ones, so...
 
Well, it has to do with the gyro effect of the spinning wheel, and FWD cars spin the front wheels which are also the steered ones, so...
The effect is dependent on angular velocity so it doesn’t matter if the wheel is powered or not.
Honestly haven't seen anyone using such high values with AC or ACC, that just kills micro details, making wheel vague and less responsive (in all situations, not just slides recovery).
But it's your wheel, there is no right or wrong when it comes to personal preferences.
Except in this situation seems like end user is "forced" to use much higher values to counteract effect of "fixed" gyro. That's the problem.
It is literally step back to the level of other sims without Dynamic Damping, sims that people just have to use high damping values with to counteract oscillation and aggressive SAT.
You can as well just turn Gyro effect off completely and have the same result, why even bother with it if you are compensating with high global dampening anyway.
It's a really good conversation, and thanks for chiming it, do you mind continuing on GD board just to get more feedback from SC1 and SC2 users?
If we’re going for realism in the steering feel department, then forcing higher friction values is a good thing. It sounds like you want something more like what PCARS does which is not rack forces but a more informative but less realistic ffb.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

It sounds like you want something more like what PCARS does which is not rack forces but a more informative but less realistic ffb.
Not sure if it's meant as some sort of snobbery insult, but the answer is No.
The main reason I am almost exclusively playing both Kunos titles is because I love their FFB implementation, ACC in particular.
I can tell you this though, that with "fixed" gyro wheel starts behaving "jerky" just like in PCars, and this is what Reiza is trying to fix now in AMS2 with their version of "dynamic damping'.
 
Not sure if it's meant as some sort of snobbery insult, but the answer is No.
The main reason I am almost exclusively playing both Kunos titles is because I love their FFB implementation, ACC in particular.
I can tell you this though, that with "fixed" gyro wheel starts behaving "jerky" just like in PCars, and this is what Reiza is trying to fix now in AMS2 with their version of "dynamic damping'.
It’s not a snobbery thing, you just don’t want to use settings that are objectively more realistic (e.g. higher friction).
 
Same here. I've been using Stereo's FFB Tweaks for several months and, purely out of interest, I switched it off yesterday and tried out the Lotus 49 around a familiar track and was shocked at how 'lost' I felt.

I had real difficulty in telling what the car was doing, especially regarding oversteer. It just felt vague and uninformative. It may have been a simple change in what I was used to, but I certainly won't be going back to Kunos' Gyro effect. The FFB I feel with FFB Tweaks turned on feels much more natural to me now.
 
Not sure if it's meant as some sort of snobbery insult, but the answer is No.
The main reason I am almost exclusively playing both Kunos titles is because I love their FFB implementation, ACC in particular.
I can tell you this though, that with "fixed" gyro wheel starts behaving "jerky" just like in PCars, and this is what Reiza is trying to fix now in AMS2 with their version of "dynamic damping'.
he is right at least ams2 is working on that and I have panned the title a lot lately but their dynamic ffb has become something probably 65% finished and improved (the one thing).

I do not like the ffb being changed with the new gyro [but the 458 gt2 Ferrari was pretty good) but am grateful to see it, as I have since deleted a couple of dodgy vehicles (prototypes) and replaced them with a vrc version. They were a couple of legion ones, namely the cadillac one and the bmw v12 lmp (they seem unfinished anyway), I can suffer the Ferrari 333p and the panoz of his, but the two I got rid of were pulled from an obscure site iirc but I got the link from a certified good youtuber. The Renault Alpine is very good by legion. (edit: wrong, its bad, game not ready for over revving destroying the engine and the concept of such a car with zero downforce, maybe its broken) got rid of it and the Alpine 450 is the one thats good (from ***********) - and its ffb is at 45% strength at the track in game. A few of legions stuff are suspect to say the least. I wouldnt mind knowing why.

but anything with the gyro for me was a bit off except seemingly the 458 gt2 ferrarai.
 
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I have questions about wheel tuning for the new gyro implementation for my SC2 Pro, since at least for me the reactions I get from bumps and curbs are quite brutal for lack of a better word. I was running the IER P13c at the Nürburgring today and everytime I touched the curbs in the Schumacher-S there was quite a violent reaction, whereas the steering forces in general are really good with my current settings.

Does the gyro strength scale with anything? FFB gain maybe?
If I'd like to tone down the gyro reactions over curbs a bit without loosing too much steering feel and FFB strength in general. Should I lower FFB in my wheel and raise gain in game or vice versa? Should I let the gain values be and instead use certain values for friction/damping/inertia? I'm not asking for specific values. Maybe a range or just for general pointers.
 
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I have questions about wheel tuning for the new gyro implementation for my SC2 Pro, since at least for me the reactions I get from bumps and curbs are quite brutal for lack of a better word. I was running the IER P13c at the Nürburgring today and everytime I touched the curbs in the Schumacher-S there was quite a violent reaction, whereas the steering forces in general are really good with my current settings.

Does the gyro strength scale with anything? FFB gain maybe?
If I'd like to tone down the gyro reactions over curbs a bit without loosing too much steering feel and FFB strength in general. Should I lower FFB in my wheel and raise gain in game or vice versa? Should I let the gain values be and instead use certain values for friction/damping/inertia? I'm not asking for specific values. Maybe a range or just for general pointers.
I don't own a DD or an SC2 but I have some ideas for short-term solutions at least.

Steering friction in manual racks is maybe 2-3Nm or so. You should scale your friction according to that; assuming the % is a % of the max torque. You should do a real test and see what it outputs. Maybe your friction is very low like a typical consumer "maximum feel" DD setup has. :D

Also mid-corner bump spikes in a car like the P13C might easily be half or more of your wheel's maximum torque in real life. I think it can hit like 50Nm mid-corner or something? It has powersteering for a reason; I don't know if it's implemented via RealFeel in the public car though.

Probably you will need to check you have enough friction and put in lots of damping (I feel like people typically run far too little especially for PS racks) to get something more manageable and closer to a real rack.

Gyro does not scale with anything for a long time now, it's solved via the physics. The slider only worked for the very first version it got introduced IIRC.

I think @mclarenf1papa who developed the car does use an SC2 setup though? So rather listen to him.
 
I think @mclarenf1papa who developed the car does use an SC2 setup though? So rather listen to him.
Yes he stated further back in the thread that the friction values of the SC2 Pro about to 3-4NM on 100%, so that should be around 40-50% friction setting for your values.

My wheel settings for AC actually are quite consumery if you put it that way :D They're still from using the Kunos gyro back when, but the new gyro makes it a bit too lively for me.

I'll have a go at it with higher friction and damping values tonight. Thank you :)
 
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Yes he stated further back in the thread that the friction values of the SC2 Pro about to 3-4NM on 100%, so that should be around 40-50% friction setting for your values.

My wheel settings for AC actually are quite consumery if you put it that way :D They're still from using the Kunos gyro back when, but the new gyro makes it a bit too lively for me.

I'll have a go at it with higher friction and damping values tonight. Thank you :)
Correct, but it really depends on what you're trying to achieve with it. 1-2Nm friction for a manual rack is reasonable, but most of the cars in AC don't have manual racks. And the ones that have powersteering...well...don't actually have it. So you're in a bit of a pickle in that no FFB setting will be "correct" for things besides manually steered cars. And then in cars with actual powersteering, it becomes nonlinear (you get the 1-2Nm at 0 load which fades away as load increases), so it can't be correct in that case either.

Driving cars on the SC2, I generally use "manual rack" settings and scale the gain to about 10-15Nm steady state. This is the best compromise I've found.
 
@mclarenf1papa, can you post screenshots of your TD and AC FFB settings.
Thanks
No access to that computer at the moment, but for a manual rack it's about 35% friction, 20% damper, 10% inertia, and 100% torque in the profiler. AC settings are 30% gain as the baseline (to be adjusted per car anyway) and all of the effects off besides improved gyro.
 

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