read more: FFB Tweaks

I've worked with x4fab to add a new feature to the Custom Shaders Patch (as of 0.1.51) and the description is fairly brief so I thought it's worth going into a bit more detail about what this does.

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Gyro Implementation

[ ] Active check to enable
Strength 25% adjust effect strength
AC has an "Experimental Gyro" FFB effect whose purpose was adding gyroscopic effects to the steering. It never lost the experimental tag and all it's generally recommended for is damping down oscillations on direct drive wheels.
This is that, developed slightly further based on my understanding of the nature of gyroscopic forces. I have a pretty solid case for making this change, and I believe this force exists in actual cars, and AC's original experimental gyro does not.

The developed version still suits the purpose of damping oscillations, but more importantly it decouples the body from the front wheels - so if the front wheels are pointing in a direction and the body moves around them, no gyroscopic precession happens, and no force is generated. Concretely, what we're talking about here is oversteer - on the original experimental gyro, the force acts counter to self-alignment during oversteer. With this new implementation, self-alignment is allowed to occur freely, or, if the oversteer is so quick that the wheels can't self-align, it'll actually push in the direction of alignment.

25% is simply equivalent to the original force multiplier used on experimental gyro when merging it with other FFB forces. Ultimately, the same as the other amplification ffb effects like road and slip effect, the slider is available to magnify it if your hardware's limitations are obscuring the effect.
As of CSP 0.1.53 the strength slider is outdated. A calculation using the suspension geometry now provides the right precession-based force for each car.
The description is a little bit misleading; this replaces "Experimental Gyro" so disabling it is superfluous, if this is Active, experimental gyro is not. Still, it won't hurt to disable experimental gyro and be certain it's off.

Now that I've said what the intent is, I will also note the following: this changes FFB in pretty much every dynamic situation. It's not just an improvement for drift cars or for vintage cars that oversteer constantly; any time the car moves around on the tires it feels slightly different from before. To me, it's a positive change, it's clearer what the car is doing, and I have heard similarly positive comments from testers. Nonetheless, I am not omniscient, I have not driven all these cars in real life, it's up to you to decide whether it improves your game or gives you better sim feeling the rubber or what. Modifying games to improve the FFB is a fine tradition starting with some extremely thorough efforts in rfactor1, and this is no different (maybe a bit easier to install).

I will note that it slightly increases max forces when cornering so if you have stuff set up to barely clip, you'll need an adjustment downward in global ffb mult.

Range Compression

Range compression 100% - 100% is the "default off" of this effect
[ ] Range compression assist - check to convert cars' "steer assist" into range compression.

New FFB Tweak available as of 0.1.53. The name comes from the audio world, where dynamic range compression means bringing up the quiet sounds while leaving loud sounds at their original volume. This is a much more second derivative friendly version of the Gamma effect.

The percentage is straightforward: Set it to how much you want to multiply small forces. Or adjust it in sync with your overall gain if you want to maintain the level of small forces and change large forces. For example, 200% compression + 50% gain = original 100% on small forces, larger forces decrease. If you're curious, the curve at the point of maximum force is simply the inverse, 200% compression will cause large forces 50% of the original delta in force. But in combination with 50% gain, you're moving the original maximum force downward and the ceiling before the game clips is much higher.

Think of this like power steering: you only want it to assist the heavy forces and give you maximum feel of the light forces.

This is very much an "adjust to taste" thing, it operates smoothly enough that you're safe running it upward of 300%, and I have seen IRL data indicating that manufacturers effectively go as high as 600% in power steering systems, when they want to bring 20+N forces down to a comfortable 2-3N.

Steer assist is a built in per-car feature of AC that applies a gamma function to that car's FFB. If you check Range compression assist, then FFB Tweaks will calculate an appropriate range compression adjustment, and disable steer assist. This should give you a far more normal FFB feeling (no weird bumps around center) while retaining the original goal of giving high downforce cars enough low-speed FFB to be drivable.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Manual rack, is it some other setting in CSP or just type of the car driven?
That high dampening from all these effects makes driving quite dull and underwhelming. But it"s just personal, "consumer" opinion.
 
Manual rack, is it some other setting in CSP or just type of the car driven?
That high dampening from all these effects makes driving quite dull and underwhelming. But it"s just personal, "consumer" opinion.
You can do that via this:
1628369031502.png


But it's only really necessary for cars with powersteering (so maybe don't check the override box) and not to be used with Kunos cars because a lot of their suspension geometries are wrong. You'll be fine using 30% gain and adjusting from there without this setting. If you don't like how it feels with the losses included (friction, damping, etc), you'd hate how powersteering feels.
 
You can do that via this:
View attachment 494028

But it's only really necessary for cars with powersteering (so maybe don't check the override box) and not to be used with Kunos cars because a lot of their suspension geometries are wrong. You'll be fine using 30% gain and adjusting from there without this setting. If you don't like how it feels with the losses included (friction, damping, etc), you'd hate how powersteering feels.
Instead of having it as a global option, it would be convenient (for me) to have this setting + the override tickbox included in the controller profile settings since those can be assigned per car:
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Which cars besides the P13c and Some1's NSX (i think) does this stting make sense for? Do the reputable mods (RSS, VRC, yourself, Arch, Jason, Gary, ...) generally work with it or is that too general?

I tried your settings but had to scale them down a few percent. I generally like the feel. Gives the cars a bit of much needed weight. I'm still fiddling around though.
 
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Normally you don't need separate settings on it, you put in the Nm of your wheel & don't check the override and that's that. Aside from the cars built for it, it can only be correct on ones with manual steering racks & I don't know how commonly those have accurate geometry since they'll tend to be older.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Hope I don't sound stupid, but I am honestly completely confused when to use that setting and when not and in which situations "override" checkbox must be checked, if at all.
Does it do anything to mainstream content, vanilla, RSS, etc?
 
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So much to digest in this thread. I tried FFB tweaks but when hitting the curb in the first monza chicane I get "race cancelled" now and again - I switch off FFB tweaks and it's all good again. Just taking note of what Stereo said about maybe turning off kunos gyro which I didn't before, maybe it still inteferes.

With FFB tweaks or even Kunos gyro does anyone use less than 100% damping in Assetto/CM when using the belt driven wheel Thrustmaster TS PC - default damping in TM control panel.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

So much to digest in this thread. I tried FFB tweaks but when hitting the curb in the first monza chicane I get "race cancelled" now and again - I switch off FFB tweaks and it's all good again. Just taking note of what Stereo said about maybe turning off kunos gyro which I didn't before, maybe it still inteferes.

With FFB tweaks or even Kunos gyro does anyone use less than 100% damping in Assetto/CM when using the belt driven wheel Thrustmaster TS PC - default damping in TM control panel.
By default damping is active only for stationary and goes away when car starts moving.
You can still keep some of it always active by changing DAMPER_MIN_LEVEL in assetto_corsa.ini or via CM
1628466788562.png
 
Ah right I get it - read something and now mine is on 0.1% on minimum damper level. Do you have 0% damper gain because you're using DD wheel or just want a lighter wheel input when stationary.

Sorry to stray slightly off topic guys/gals - will get straight back on.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Ah right I get it - read something and now mine is on 0.1% on minimum damper level. Do you have 0% damper gain because you're using DD wheel or just want a lighter wheel input when stationary.

Sorry to stray slightly off topic guys/gals - will get straight back on.
AC has a little bug with some damper still lingering around after car starts moving which adds unwanted noise.
 
AC has a little bug with some damper still lingering around after car starts moving which adds unwanted noise.

I write this to many party's just take the relevant part as I field the question to everyone and anyone. I will cover many examples and games in racing with gyros

- What I am seeing is much better turning circles, tighter, and higher precision of movement.

- To be affected by the gyro at all times, seemingly, at least where wheel alignment is concerned, which leads into turning ability, I needed to put a 1% minimum force for this high end belt.

- The sensation in all games with the belt drive has been great from thrustmaster, no question, but this is now something else. Its like he got reality and turned it up to 10. Its drawn a lot of nuance and functional nuance from the model.

- I removed also the 40% dampener as this was the old way I gained precision with this wheel, from experimental, which is now on 0.

- I get the best result with gyro effect on at experimental section, don't know if that is proper, but also the second ffb tweaks in shaders patch gyro is on, too. So, two gyro settings enabled.

The wheel is now light enough to be more flickable, more precise in AC, and this to me makes it pass racerooms latest update. Not always but mostly, can dial up forces I guess, but most cars have a more proper wheel-pull effect, so it centers more satisfyingly. It can also snap, which is a legit occurrence for fools like me who can't always drive in pc games

- I do not use any effect like slip personally. only road at 20% and curb at 35, both needed I think for feel and proportionate. gain is 75% and adjusted per car maybe up 10% depending on car. before it was 81 gain

- it is true that on rss 2017 for example, putting recovery to 10% will make you brake better and adjust drive wheel behaviour, but this is not influencing my impression about the gyro. or the kunos SF70h f1 car ferrarai, same year, but kunos 2015 s15 is the better one of the two, a favourite actually, generally does suzuka from that reboot team site, and it does it well, but the gyro for its setup indeed made it loose. so i adjust down various things

- cars will even slide sideways a bit, this is actually a good sign. i think of all the nominal and even arbitrary values, but AC just handles it all so well, and with the new gyro its better. so what - suspension is not 1:1, thats ok

Question to people: What is the consensus on the new gyro for people these days in their experience?

edit: I mean I use it on and off in the past few months, its better and not as good feel at the same time, tricky one but then you come to see it aligns better over various scenarios. The more I get used to it the more I just leave it on. Maybe its the difference of being able to do a double jump or 1.5 jumps in a game versus a single jump. There becomes more to it kind of thing.

So one thing I do now is turn down bump in dampers, and I drive slightly differently. Long turns also have better tractability, its like the original gyro or setups basically ploughed through certain things; it did feel alright back then but not fully baked. Now it feels more nuanced.

And for me when I added a 1% minimum to belts could be what some are missing. not sure. I think at the time the devs had a good- feeling driving model and original still feels really good, so they never bothered cross checking anything else with new advancements is my guess, or it was designed to work with that hiccup in mind. AC was always good but csp and this make it that little better. Its probably not perfect, only time will tell. Original gives a good drive to a wide range of people, so I am going to suspect its a design choice to leave the gyro in an odd state.

The biggest benefit to this change tho I saw was the inertia gained when you can turn the wheel at earlier or later precise points and have the wheels do things slightly more realistically; while not correct technique, you can preload the tires direction and the car adjusts more normally. To make up for that previously I think the game just let people "plough" through turns a little bit more than usual (and in 2013 people didn't really know any better). This way you have a higher skill ceiling I think and you can diverge more if that makes sense during a turn, especially long ones. The back of the car is felt more coming round behind you even when its not slipping out.

A great way to see the gyro do its thing seems to be at Ottowa track mod, the made up but very good rendition with 6 layouts and plenty of differing turns long and short from low speed to high, I use the gp one and the kunos gt3 merc, its just a slicker gyro and gives that dizzying effect as it goes up hills on sweeping turns and down hills, awesome track. Its good, feels like more power and weight behind it.


Test it with high torque rear wheel drives, ideal for the road speeds; anyway, in the game is this what other people find several months later the added accuracy, provided you could drive your car like such in real life and some can, if you could turn your wheel fast on roads (and in a car if you have the right car such as a rear wheel drive, maybe they gave you an LSD, same kind of principle, right spot: a long slow bend you can take fast from a stand still, even at a T intersection proceeded by such a long bend, will allow you from a stop to accelerate well enough to turn fast, then change lanes under high load and maybe break to take a left or right turn depending on country into another t intersection, then u-turn at that street and drive hard back...., maybe be careful; or onto a highway with a long bend from a traffic light. if you could, the higher precision in your hands is necessary. So this change is a good one I think. I just never thought so until recently it was like this in AC with this setting.

Note: this new gyro helped me ditch the 40% dampener for precision setting I was using. So the above is grain of salt. I do not doubt the gyros usefulness tho.

Other tracks and highly recommend I found it much better are knutstorp and okayama. the high precision in the rss 2017 for example makes driving fast much easier, along with sonoma.

To wit: basically as good-fast as new Raceroom but with better physics/different model, but better cars no offence. And a far more precise AMS2-esque feel (contrary to popular belief its not completely bad just approaching so since they switched over the values/got rid of all placeholders) I do not dislike that game but AMS2 ffb/physics is just churning the wheel/tyres through every turn in order to simulate something very far from AC, its very imprecise or overly when its all put together so when it comes to grip like fake downforce or something, obtuse compared to this new gyro. AC is highly precise and flexible and nuanced. In AC, not that AMS2 is totally bad, you must use all available driving faculties including throttle control etc.

A second final example is at Okayama, from full speed to tight turn, low speed out and accelerate hard into next tight turn... the pick up of speed is nuanced and the gyro is working hard, its highly variable as if its on a fast frequency now. Its a good sensation as it picks up speed, better reaction from vehicle. In most other games, maybe not raceroom from memory now and ACC, like in AMS2, its one flat speed, linear. So i think this new gyro is a very good result above AC as it was fairly decent but not on this level.

The final example is spinning OUT at okayama! lol, get on the power down the back straight and turn on boost and DSR, pass between 5 cars 2 at front and three at back line with a lot of precision and placement, then get spun at high speed... the car spins around like a merry go round several times (4) - the gyro makes it have a lot of inertial and weight as it goes on a 30 degree angle, variable as it spins and arcs off and flung down into the wall. Flaming wow. Quite the surprise.

- so too, turning wide at okayama after the main straight, and then adjusting to a tighter line, it reacts well. using a setup that gets a good time at monza, so... but this is the best I have seen from a driving game, hands down. I would say most kunos cars are improved too from what I tried over time.

- kunos' spa is another track where the new gyro is blatantly so good.

So the gyro is really cool now. These subtle effects were not there before.
 
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my long post is indeed long but also covered a lot. i drove the legion Ferrari 512m and its simply driving phenomenally slow and fast with the new gyro, as others said wheels feel like wheels and turning maintains its believability, so you can turn the wheel early at speed in some of these cars and travel as on would expect, and also in crashing lol its way better naturally.

same, too the kunos Ferrari 512TR testarossa type one non canyon spec, drives much better. previously i was flummoxed over those vehicles, but now when you set toe on back to just negative a little and front, and tyres properly, camber 1.9 ish it does turn properly and better all over the range of steering inputs.

remarkable really. i can only guess that kunos never changed it because the other way of doing it seemed to work in an easier way, you need to be a better driver this way, they probably never noticed it had a flaw when the game is brand new. the old way is seriously a crutch, so most probably prefer it when it comes to picking up the title and just playing and getting decent at it. but in no way is it better

solution for real forces is to not use them in csp and CM
 
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There is no 512TR or M from Kunos, it's a mod car.
that is true actually sorry! lost track. i have deleted a ton of mods recently since getting the gyro as they do not measure up (but getting them to do this was the point), that is one of the ones which kind of does. thanks for pointing it out.

one car I always wanted to get rid of, but did not was the alpine A450 LMP 2...an amazing car with metallic pain in sol...turns out I simply was not driving it right and that its default setup was good. So now with Camberextraveganza AC App on racedepartment I can actually reteach myself a lot of these cars; or get rid of the ones I know I simple cannot setup since they are incomplete or dud mods. I drive around with that and tires on, keeping it as optimal as I can.

i really suggest everyone gets that app for AC. stuff I never touched is in new category 60 days. but has 1 star. stuff i touched and was average I give 2 stars, and great stuff rss, acl legends, kunos cars nearly all of them, and vrc, guerilla, etc etc too many to mention get 5 stars. And a variety of tags. stuff that is rubbish or otherwise is surplus to requirements (why have 4 honda mp4s for example) or legions failed longtail mclaren gt1 (other legion stuff is surprisingly good), when the kunos one is really good...such stuff gets deleted.

gone down from 500 cars to roughly 400 now using various widgets and dev tools to make sure they are semi decent.

the point of that text was the turning. being the gyro thread, that car showed significant improvement. not every legion mod is good for example, but several are at least driving like [some kind of] a car near enough to the one represented.

the 512 is an albert daniel russo, and its quite good, and if I can get the cars down to 300 I will be aiming for that. the 512 is the kind of car a billionaire gives to his son as a first drive or something haha

settings to check for new gyro extra precision/quality mod, most people probably do it any way by feel.


edit: for the purposes of this new gyro, and my above project, I have used the mod-tool from here at racedepart ment called camberextraveganza to get all the correct cambers and sensible

- toe settings usually front -.01 to -.05 or -.010 if I must - you can see who made their mods well with this,

- * damper, height or suspension does not even come into it at all unless its waay out of wack... its showing no green or its just odd or abnormal, then you can adjust dampeners, which as we know some cars are heavily affected (but some mods do not even have those for example)... what is the point of driving a mod car with non-good grip, even by its own internal measures, thus many Kunos cars are solid reference points, or RSS, etc

- anything which for the car affects its camber, and its high levels of mechanical grip, use best judgement, after baseline and other reference points for eras, cars, years, consider even tyre pressure - but if a car is not playing ball from near the outset or using sensible values it really makes you wonder as to the validity of the mod.

- so then rebound damper and wheel rate is one to look at (in the effort of keeping the camber sweet spot in the green for as long as possible), but obviously the first settings above where its between 001 etc those are the least muddying of other values. damper rebound may only be used toward end, perhaps. helps to feel out the mod too, I am sure others use other programs etc.

- if a car for example turns only pale blue a lot of the time, such as guerrilla mods gt4 mclaren 570, even after 3 laps there's not a lot of green at a high grip needed circuit like Misano.... (so apply liberal reason to ditching a car, thats not so bad, its misano...) a person can kind of live with that, as you suspect throwing it around is not going to get enormous grip....but a clear-error car... such a car (and even some titles, unless its raceroom) will take you away from driving the good cars for too long, or playing the good games AC and ACC and raceroom, insert yours, if you dawdle in them

- a 20 lap race? Maybe peak grip is not ideal, or play with no wear on tires, but its mostly the mods which are incapable of delivering the intended drive or they double up, or are outdated etc.

- its not that I like troubleshooting this, knew it would need to be done

- drivetrain usually power is above 50, up to 80....

- and for back camber +0.01-+0.010. They were previously sensible and grippy but now even more so, so I could be sure I used the tool. The car mods that do not function within those bounds or slide either side too easy in the tool )never green across a reasonable range of driving-turning, whereby I simply won't bother applying more downforce, just by that and dev tools I select mods to delete. Bar one or two that redeem in other ways (rare). No sense having 5 2007 f1's if 4 are not solid models.

- test tracks are Misano, a test track itself really, and Monza mostly for their contrasting qualities. Ottawa mod sometimes.

The gyro is really good. No other sim comes close to AC in nearly all respects. From 480 cars, down now to 415. And half way through. A lot of fun, more fun than most other sims tbh just doing this. AC only needs 1 car and track to beat most other sims tbf.

Before this gyro, well the new gyro really separates the wheat from the chaff. Only Kunos cars and quality mods let you drive at high speeds, well, and for road cars, to have setups that do not promote abnormal driving at 60 Km's/hr, 25 miles, etc, you soon tell with the new gyro.

This is one reason why I think they never changed it -mods that would be off base anyway; but I must thank the company kunos and the gyro maker/adjuster for this as appropriate. not only once you see it you never go back, as its now that much closer to simming a car, and yes its less forgiving as far as turning correctly is, but also the lesser mods stick out a lot more. With camberextravaganza you no longer need to chase the high grips.

The gyro in other words is a boon for the people who use it. Many mods are works in progress, some never quite make it, etc. This is a net gain in my book
 
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Hi guys do we tick the unlock experimental option in order in CM in order for FFB tweaks to kick in? Cheers
Somewhere on the first pages the question was answered:
- the original gyro should automatically get disabled when you're activating the csp one

- it can't hurt to disable the original gyro anyway though

- ofc you can use the damper slider etc from the experimental section in cm! Just don't activate gyro there
 

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