Is VR dead?

[Locoblade]

Then why is the percentage of gamers using VR so small? The numbers may be higher for racers and flight simmers (both small, niche genres), but in the general PC gaming world, where it really matters, there are still less than 2% of users with VR headsets according to the Steam hardware survey. Mainstream? And, yes, I have tried it.

Maybe not in it's prime now, but perhaps as good as it's ever been is what was meant? As for becoming primetime, I imagine we'll see a big percentage increase in uptake when VR/AR is a viable alternative to a screen for general Windows use because at the moment any VR purchase is a significant investment over and above the compulsory screen purchase that everyone requires for a PC to function anyway. That's always going to massively limit the audience to those like some of us, wanting one for specific tasks where VR excels and willing to pay for it compared to the majority who will use a screen for gaming because they need a screen anyway so gaming with it requires no further outlay. If you could buy a headset in future though that removes the need to have a monitor, one that untethers you from the machine using wireless transmission of the signal and one that's able to work in an augmented reality mode allowing you to stay in contact with the outside world as when working with a monitor then who knows how widespread their use could become.

 

[anton_Chez]

How does being niche or not have any effect AT ALL in using a product that clearly achieves what it sets out to right now?

A Ferrari is a niche purchase, it still has a right to exist. Seeing as the company has been around for longer than any of us, it seems to do just fine catering to a small sub section of society. This argument is pointless and stupid.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I probably overreacted to the 'niche' thingy. Apologies. I don't mind the word and that it's applied to sim racing or VR as personally I think it's true. What I find a little frustrating is when when a 'pro' racer (or anyone else for that matter) uses the the fact that VR is 'niche' as an argument not to use it for sim racing. There are a lot of very good reasons not to use VR, but trying to use the excuse they are 'niche' with regard to sim racing just strikes me that the person making the argument hasn't really thought it through properly, or they don't really have an appreciation of the effort (not to mention money) sim racers put into their hobby

I know a number of iRacers who have said that they immediately improved their iRating by a chunk after upgrading to VR. The same people have not been nearly as effusive about direct drive steering or even higher end load cell brakes.

 

[Bjarne Hansen]

I am a little bit faster in VR than on my UW- monitor. But it took awhile to improve in VR. Think I was and sometimes on new track and car still are easy distracted by looking around inside the car and one the landscape surrounding the track
But think you can archive the same with triple monitors?

Then again I would use VR even if I lost time on the track! I just is primary because I have more fun sim racing in VR.
Still using my monitor setup a lot. Maybe even more than VR as I do enjoy GTR 2 and AMS more than any modern sims.

 

[Locoblade]

We may be a niche but it seems HP are listening to the sim community, their VR product manager saying the enthusiasm in the sim community for Reverb G1 basically steered what they've done in the development of the G2

 

[anton_Chez]

Imagine that. Interest in a product not used by every second person on the earth steered development and production of new technology. It's as if a small group of people actually had influence over something. Perhaps how in the 80's the small group of people that latched onto newly available home PC's created the juggernaut that is the computer industry we know today?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Imagine that. Interest in a product not used by every second person on the earth steered development and production of new technology. It's as if a small group of people actually had influence over something. Perhaps how in the 80's the small group of people that latched onto newly available home PC's created the juggernaut that is the computer industry we know today?

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of Reverb sales were for driving and flight sims. It's a very popular headset among the high end rig crowd.

Any company that is smart will take note of who their primary customer is and if sim gamers are buying a lot more than corporate buyers are than a smart company will pivot to take advantage of that and make tweaks to keep that momentum going.

The Reverb G2 is going head to head with the new Pimax 8K#.

Any guesses on which one will be shipping first?

Both the new G2 and 8K# have major improvements over their previous generation that focus on the same things, better optics, better ergonomics, noticeably higher image quality with larger in focus area.

These are the important refinements needed to make these products polished. The first gen Reverb and Pimax has plenty of issues that needed to be worked through. Now we are seeing solid improvements.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Great interview, so the 4 cameras tracking is from Microsoft, i.e. new WMR standard, pretty sure controllers too, even that PM said it's HP controllers.

 

[Slapped]

I'd be willing to bet that a majority of Reverb sales were for driving and flight sims. It's a very popular headset among the high end rig crowd.

Any company that is smart will take note of who their primary customer is and if sim gamers are buying a lot more than corporate buyers are than a smart company will pivot to take advantage of that and make tweaks to keep that momentum going.

The Reverb G2 is going head to head with the new Pimax 8K#.

Any guesses on which one will be shipping first?

Both the new G2 and 8K# have major improvements over their previous generation that focus on the same things, better optics, better ergonomics, noticeably higher image quality with larger in focus area.

These are the important refinements needed to make these products polished. The first gen Reverb and Pimax has plenty of issues that needed to be worked through. Now we are seeing solid improvements.

You don't just need a high end rig for the G1 Reverb, you need a top end rig. Even on an RTX 2080 Ti you need to make some resolution compromises to get the full 90FPS on some games.

I'll be getting this as soon as it's available, as well as a pair of 3080Ti's (I have two rigs, one for general gaming and one for sim stuff)

 

[GeekyDeaks]

You don't just need a high end rig for the G1 Reverb, you need a top end rig. Even on an RTX 2080 Ti you need to make some resolution compromises to get the full 90FPS on some games.

It's not that bad, but you have to choose your battles for sure. I have a bog standard RTX 2060 (don't ask - I fluffed up ) - iRacing runs silky smooth even on medium settings with a big field. I can run AC with 36 cars when using minimal settings, which to my old eyes still looks better than iRacing. PC2 is another story though... constant dips below 90fps even on the lowest settings and a 20 car grid

 

[anton_Chez]

The Reverb gives me the best image of any HMD I've used at the most efficient performance. Who knows.

 

[Locoblade]

I think the gap between what's required for a high resultion headset like the Reverb and what's required for say a Rift S isn't as much as the raw pixel count difference would suggest, because to get a higher quality image on a lower resolution headset you generally seem to have to turn on supersampling which basically means the GPU is having to render a lot more pixels than the headset can actually display anyway.

 

[BrunoBæ]

The Reverb G2 is going head to head with the new Pimax 8K#.

Any guesses on which one will be shipping first?

Haha. Good one.
I think everybody who have been following Pimax has a reasonable qualified guess

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm not super sampling in games that support VRSS.

With the advent of VRSS you actually get a bit of a cake and eat it situation where the center of each screen is rendered with better AA, better sharpening and overall looks better with the rest of the screen still looking good. If the GPU gets a little bogged down rather than dropping frames it drops the improved quality for a split second.

This is similar to the quality/performance gain with foveated rendering only with the assumption you are looking straight ahead.

When the 30 series cards drop it appears they will both be more powerful, and will also have improved optimizations for VR.

I think these new 8K displays will come into their own after the 30 series drop.

Add that to the latest unreal engine which takes ultra high resolution scans and will downrez them automatically and we should see some amazing detail. We will just need larger drives to hold all the graphics assets.

 

[maelstrom]

We will just need larger drives to hold all the graphics assets.

And much deeper pockets!

 

[RCHeliguy]

And much deeper pockets!

That is the nature of this.
When the Vive and Rift were first launched they were too expensive for mass adoption. When the Rift's price was dropped to $399 It outsold the Vive and took over the lead. Oculus saw this and dropped their higher end headset development and created the Rift S also price pointed at TaDa! $399. The Samsung O+ has been regularly discounted inexpensively as well.

Entry level VR headsets are below $400 and are available for people without deep pockets.

Past that, for people with deeper pockets there are:

$3200 Star VR ( headset only )
$1200 Pimax 8KX ( headset only )
$1399 Pimax 8K+ headset, 2 x base stations, 2 x knuckles controllers
$1000 Valve Index headset, 2 x base stations, 2 x knuckles controllers

Witness the Reverb
G1 = $600 ( headset, plus hand controllers )
G2 = $600 (headset only)

The markets are diverging. The high end has witnessed that there are deep pockets out there for a high end VR experience and manufacturers see what people are wanting so they are pushing the limits of technology. This means the equipment is getting more expensive.

The G2 looks like a bargain to me from a headset standpoint.

I'd love to see Valve introduce a similar headset that I could use with my existing hand controllers and base stations. I would like more field of view, higher frame rate and Displayport 2.0 support so it could actually reach those frame rates with a 3080Ti.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Witness the Reverb
G1 = $600 ( headset, plus hand controllers )
G2 = $600 (headset only)

You keep saying that even after correction.
Controllers ARE included but will be sold separately for OTHER WMR HMDs as they are compatible with Gen.1.

 

[RobertR1]

There's no reason to include StarVR as it's a commercial only product.

For me, the G2 on paper has all the quality of experience upgrades you could ask for given the drawbacks of G1 and at $600 for the full package, very well priced.

DP2.0/HDMI 2.1 should open up the door for next gen of headsets which will likely take us into late 2021.

You can play the Pimax lottery but I've completely gone off recommending them and have solely been recommending the Index to sim only guys.

 

[RCHeliguy]

There's no reason to include StarVR as it's a commercial only product.

For me, the G2 on paper has all the quality of experience upgrades you could ask for given the drawbacks of G1 and at $600 for the full package, very well priced.

DP2.0/HDMI 2.1 should open up the door for next gen of headsets which will likely take us into late 2021.

You can play the Pimax lottery but I've completely gone off recommending them and have solely been recommending the Index to sim only guys.

I agree with all of that. I'm extremely satisfied with my Index and have no complaints. I've logged some serious hours on it too. Would I like more field of view and more resolution? Sure, but I'm pretty content.

Back when I had the my Rift, I was pretty happy with it, but the SDE was very noticeable and I was itchy to upgrade when something better came out.

Now I'm looking at my next upgrade as a system. My 2080Ti and Index are very well matched. Now that I can run 120 fps in Dirt Rally 2.0 as well as iRacing and all the other titles I play, I'm a very happy camper. I don't see myself ordering a new GPU until I see a VR headset that is a major step up. For me that will be more resolution and more field of view while maintaining a fast frame rate.

 

[RCHeliguy]

You keep saying that even after correction.
Controllers ARE included but will be sold separately for OTHER WMR HMDs as they are compatible with Gen.1.

Sorry I hadn't noticed your comment about this. This time I noticed.

It is nice that they are offering them to Gen 1 people. I know I've mentioned how clunky I thought the gen 1 hand controllers felt in use. These do look a lot more comfortable.

One thing I'm curious about. I thought the HP people mentioned that they didn't need to have lights on the hand controllers anymore, which I assumed would help battery life. But that seemed like something that would be a factor of the headset. Hopefully the Gen 1 headsets will still see them well.