Is VR dead?

anton_Chez

1000RPM
The biggest difference for me with 120hz option on Index is the way the opponent cars move, as opposed to how my car appears to move and the world around me move. The smoothness is awesome watching the other cars drive around at 120hz.
 

RCHeliguy

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The biggest difference for me with 120hz option on Index is the way the opponent cars move, as opposed to how my car appears to move and the world around me move. The smoothness is awesome watching the other cars drive around at 120hz.
It does look good :)

The biggest difference for me is when I'm aiming a weapon into the distance. The extra frame rate allows me to get a much more accurate shot, but 120 fps just seems more comfortable. Not sure how else to say it. Unfortunately I can still only get 90 fps out of DR 2.0. I think 120fps would be a more noticeable in Dirt Rally than on a track with the more extreme car motion.
 

balage06

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My only "issue" with the Index is that 120hz works great for dedicated VR titles, but for sims... not so much. I have a Ryzen 7 3700X and an RTX 2070 Super, so obviously not the best possible hardware, but I do think it's a decent enough config for now.

I use fpsVR for in-game measurement and most sims run pretty consistent at 90Hz with a few compromises (except for ACC, it's only playable at 80Hz, with no supersampling and almost minimal graphic settings - I'm talking about ~25 car multiplayer races), but FPS can easily drop into the 45-60 range in tight situations with many cars around you. I found that SteamVR's motion smoothing comes handy in these situations in most sims, the end result remains smooth even at half rate and I haven't noticed any significant delay.
 

RCHeliguy

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Unfortunately to run 120fps you pretty much need the top end of the hardware available. I'm running an i9-9900K with 2080Ti. With that I can run PC2 and iRacing at 120 fps pretty reliably, but Dirt Rally 2.0 I'm still limited to 90 fps. The last time I tried I could only get 90 fps in ACC. I'm not sure it if has gotten more efficient since then.

This is one reason I have serious doubts about the new Pimax 8K+ being driven adequately by existing hardware. Initial tests with it using a 2080Ti were only at 75Hz. Of course they have time to improve their drivers before release and it "sounds" like they are actually using the 2080Ti's uprezzing section so depending on how well they leverage that, maybe it will be usable at release. My guess is that it won't be running properly until the 3080Ti gets here, but fingers crossed they break new ground.
 
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Spinelli

1000RPM
Pimax 4k and still using 180% resolution upsampling? Is even 4k that bad let alone other headsets with much less resolution? I guess the larger FOV/screens offsets the larger amount of pixels?

Simply stating resolution is pretty meaningless in the VR industry as all VR headset screens are different sizes and shapes / aspect ratios. The industry needs to start stating their resolutions in PPI (pixels per inch) or PPCM (pixels per cm) or something like that.


It's weird; in VR headsets, not only do most games seem to have not enough 3D depth, but it seems different games and even different headsets overall have different amounts/scaling of 3D depth - all of which is just completely wrong. I don't understand this. Just like the game FOV setting across all VR headsets should be scaled identically so all objects' sizes look 1:1 with real life, the same should be applied to 3D depth too. All games using a 1:1 FOV across all VR headset models/brands should have identical 3D depth but it's instead all a mess as they're all different and inconsistent.

With Nvidia 3D Vision and monitors, I manually adjust game FOV and 3D depth myself so all games have consistent 1:1 worlds in terms of both object size and 3D depth. Is this possible with VR headsets?
 
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RCHeliguy

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VR is fairly new. Standards will emerge over time.

I've never noticed an issue with depth perception using either the Rift or Valve Index. Most of the games I use feel pretty natural in terms of depth. There have been a couple exceptions that were VR ports done poorly.

@Spinelli Do you have a specific example of a title that is good vs one that is bad ?

I wonder if this is an issue with proper support for the Pimax.

Different people do get different FOV on headsets depending on their face shields and their face contours. With the Index if I wear glasses and move the displays away or contacts and move the displays towards me, I will get a different DOF.

I noticed many years ago that everything looked a bit smaller when I had my glasses on than when I wore contacts. I think that we tend to compensate for this automatically. My optometrist said most people don't notice this difference. Technically the glasses help increase my DOF for the angle presented inside the frames and contacts show me a bit less FOV for the same perceived angle. Of course with contacts I have a larger corrected field of view.

Many sim racing titles do have a FOV adjustment in VR, but most of the other games I play don't.
 
I agree with RCHeliguy that I have not noticed much issues with depth perception in VR as most if not all sim games are very easy to to setup for proper view.
Do recall earlier in R3E that the cars was too big! Not using it anymore but pretty sure it was fixed.

Anybody got a Rift Quest and tried the wired link in Sim racing games?
 

odiopower

75RPM
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Rift and Quest are two separate unit, the brand is “Oculus”, just saying. Btw the Quest run at 72hz, imho is too low as refresh rate, sure you can adapt to it but better have a different headset, it’s also too heavy.
 
I was curious if with a wired connection you could run at higher refresh rates/
Since you say it is too heavy I assume you have one.!
So have you tested the wired connection?
 

BrunoB

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I just read some of the pre-release comments about the comming Pimax 8KX & 8K+.
And the first impressions at the Amsterdam VR Days 2019.
Specially the comments on the 8KX with the oudio strap sounds really interesting.
Maybe I should make the plunge to VR beginning 2020.:)


ByTheWay: And personally as a glasses user these new models sounds even more interesting. :thumbsup:
 

Miguel Batista

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I agree with RCHeliguy that I have not noticed much issues with depth perception in VR as most if not all sim games are very easy to to setup for proper view.
Do recall earlier in R3E that the cars was too big! Not using it anymore but pretty sure it was fixed.

Anybody got a Rift Quest and tried the wired link in Sim racing games?
Cars were too big because the world scale starts too large. The internal IPD (software) is 63mm so when you multiply it by 1.00 if you, like me, have a large 68mm IPD, it makes the world look too big. You have to go up to 1.05 or change the internal IPD to the right value. Finicky but it is a Dx9 game running VR natively. I recently got back to it since you can do a long "campaign" from 2013 to modern days with different series and that is something I want to try out.
 
I doubt there are a GPU out there that can utilize a Pimax 8K X or even + in a Race sim maybe apart form LFS.
I tried the Pimax 5+ with my RTX 2070 and had to scale down a lot from my base WMR settings. Even ended up going with the more narrow FOV which by the way are still impressive.
Would think a Pimax 5K+ would need a RTX2080 TI to really be utilized fully so I do not see how you can run the 8K X for race sims?
 

RCHeliguy

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I did read that it does some internal upscaling which might be a way to try to get around it or makes use of the RTX upscaling feature. Something like that
 

BrunoB

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I doubt there are a GPU out there that can utilize a Pimax 8K X
I guess(hope :) ) Pimax version of the TimeWarp trick and the introduction of single pass stereo in as example iRacing will make it possible to run the 8KX in about 75-90 fps with a 2080ti.
When the drivers get optimized and the puter is playing on all cylinders :p

I dont know if Pimax is believable but they are allready talking about some dynamic foveated rendering - or is it only some more simple TrackIR-ish display positioning.:x3:

Conserning upscaling then the 8KX does accept native resolution (= no upscaling).

ByTheWay: Its obvious that this monster GPU/CPU thing IS a problem.
In one of the videos from the Amsterdam flight sim demonstration it was remarked that the laptop the game was running on had some heat issues. And it was mentioned that it recently had crashed :sneaky:
But at least this laptop was actually running the game with the 8KX:whistling:
 
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RCHeliguy

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I think the 8K+ is well ahead of the hardware required to run it at this point. Time will tell, but I certainly wouldn't pre-order based on their track record which is that it would finally be released about the time that there actually was hardware that could run it :)
 

Miguel Batista

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At work we tested a 5k+ on a 2080. It was impressive but I still couldn't push the necessary level of pixels out to make far objects smooth. This is in Project Cars Pro. We also had a go with a 1070 and we were using 25% of the pixels. Still better clarity than the rift imho.
 
yTheWay: Its obvious that this monster GPU/CPU thing IS a problem.
In one of the videos from the Amsterdam flight sim demonstration it was remarked that the laptop the game was running on had some heat issues. And it was mentioned that it recently had crashed :sneaky:
But at least this laptop was actually running the game with the 8KX:whistling:
In a flight sim you can run much lower fps without any visual issues. I occasionally fire up X-Plane 11 and it is running very low fps but is not a problem. As object outside the cockpit are generally fare away.

In a race sim everything will stutter as the angular velocity on outside object are much higher due to that generally are much closer.
Another issue with Pimax the company is that they are not delivering on promises.
No working controllers, which would be fine if they send the Vive or Valve light houses to costumers. But people have now waited 1-2 years!
When will the cam for FOVE be available?
 

Spinelli

1000RPM
Hi, RC. I don't have a specific example. I tried 2 different Oculus models and the HTC Vive non-Pro multiple times over the past 2 or 3 years but each time was fairly brief. I just remember the 3D depth always seemed a little different each time. It was mostly Project Cars 1 and Assetto Corsa.

My memory is spotty to try and now remember what looked like what. I just remember thinking that a few times.

That's good to hear games allow FOV adjustments with VR. There are so many different VR headset brands and models, different screen shapes, sizes, lenses, etc. Those all mean the game will have to be set to a specific FOV to keep a 1:1 scale each particular headset (and along with that game-FOV also comes a specifc 3D depth to match). I don't understand how a player is sure they are using the correct game-FOV for their particular VR headset...Does the player just have to figure it out and set it themselves like with monitors? Does each game's developer have to program the different default FOVs and corresponding 3D depth setting for every headset out there?

Cars were too big because the world scale starts too large. The internal IPD (software) is 63mm so when you multiply it by 1.00 if you, like me, have a large 68mm IPD, it makes the world look too big. You have to go up to 1.05 or change the internal IPD to the right value. Finicky but it is a Dx9 game running VR natively. I recently got back to it since you can do a long "campaign" from 2013 to modern days with different series and that is something I want to try out.
You see what I mean? How are we supposed to know/check this for every sim we play if we want all sims to have consistent 1:1 scale from eachother? With monitors it's easy, you know the distance your eyes are from your monitor, plug that into a FOV calculator along with your monitor size and aspect ratio and it spits out the correct FOV to use or some games automatically do this when entering in your information into their triple screen setup tool (eg. iR, AC, PC2, RF2, and more).

How would we know what exact FOV to set our game to for a 1:1 scale when using "x" VR headset?
 
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