AC GT3 @ Okayama - Sun 19th Jan 2020

[Kek700]

Robert you beat my post.

 

[Kek700]

Thanks for that Robert, I have a lot of work left in the damping, it is totally over damped at present, suits me, but may provide a better device for you, I am not
very aggressive with my steering input, which suits this car. Problem is I then have to rethink the whole car again if I choose to make the damping more supple.
The problem I have is making a gripper front end starts to effect the cars stability.
The GT-r is a car you have to be patient with, so I am sort of used to that.
I know from past information that really quick driver are not looking at my setup, you want something that is more alive and in my words a car car that is unstable, darts.
Watching quick drivers, which I have little experience of, but when I can, shows me that they are in a different place to me.

Just watching some sloths on TV, now that reminds me of, well, me.

 

[HF2000]

Thanks Robert and Ernie. I've tried the setup but with my driving style I can't get close to the race pace from my own setup with it.
If you have some spare time I'd like your opinion on my setup. My lap times with this one are on average 1.30.7. The fastest was a 1.30.112

 

[Kek700]

@HF2000
If you will allow me to use it with some tyre temp alterations at Brands Hatch GP circuit tomorrow, I just always use this circuit, so familiar with the circuit, it has a sort of “generic” slant to it in my opinion too.
I don’t really fancy trying to relearn Okayama, I have based past and present setups on this circuit. If you say I have managed repeatable low 1-24 there with the occasional 1-23-0.8 with my setup, so that is going to be my yard stick in comparing your setup.
Will report back guv.

 

[RobertR1]

@HF2000

A bit tired this late but was messing around with VR and gave it a couple of laps. I did 2 or 3 laps while I was messing around other stuff:

There was a big off on the fast left after the downhill left hander which cost me .3 so there is a *lot* of time left in the laps.

It's a really good setup for my taste with a grippy front end that makes the car pointy which I like. For me, the gearing is too short and as I can feel like time being lost stuck between gears. Ernie's gearing was spot on. I will put some time into your setup sat night and see what's doable but so far, this is one I that clicked with me the most.

 

[HF2000]

Thanks Ernie and Robert. Really appreciate it. Glad the setup is not bad. But damn! Within a few laps you beat my fastest time with half a second with a non perfect lap. Incredible (and frustrating)!

 

[Kek700]

@HF2000

Just a note, this is Brands Hatch GP not Okayama , I have not suddenly acquired super alien status.

No practice, straight into it with 30 ltr’s , used my set up first ( straight into it, first thing this morning, no preparation)

1-31-0.2
1-24-0.9
1-24-0.75

into your car setup, the gearing was so out had to readjust it, Robert noticed that but thought it may be ok at brands, it wasn’t.

1-30-0.5
1-25-0.6
1-25-0.1
1-24-0.475

Straight away could see it was potentially faster, shows in the out lap.

but for me difficult to get consistent laps, quite big variations corner to corner.
Could get on the gas earlier with your setup, but my setup clawed some of that back with straight line speed.

I have numb feet, braking is a real issue for me, your setup really seemed to rely on trail braking to be done perfectly, my setup with it’s high roll stiffness did some of that for you, more predictable
Easier to get it reasonably ok, no where as good as your setup, but more predictable.

Always earlier on the throttle with your setup, my setup seemed allow me better entry speed which went some way in mitigating that advantage.

your damping was virtually spot on, controls suspension movement on what is a bumpy circuit
much better, my setup was over damped, but gave the car, funnily enough, a more predictable package, but it certainly needs some work.

I could have bashed around for many laps, I think that would have introduced a learning curve into the whole experiment, much-better for a quick out of the box approach.

did not go down the hot lap route.

it has been a real pleasure working with you all, nice to have a broad spectrum of abilities into the mix.

I could waffle on about what this has taught me, after spending quite some time talking and reading RasmusP articles and conclusions over the last 18months, chatting to John and some other very clever people on these forums, I am really starting to get a broad picture of this sports requirements.
( Driving , Attitude, Setups and more )

But one last foot note, you can train yourself to acquire much, but that in born skill will always be elusive.

I think if I was able to get one perfect lap with your setup, I would have easily been notably quicker, maybe as much as 4/10ths faster than my fastest with my setup.

But that’s why I am a mid fielder, life’s a bugger at times.

 

[Kek700]

Ps,

just noticed in my notes, my setup had much smoother steering inputs, with your setup I was fighting the car during corner entry.

 

[RobertR1]

Nice breakdown @Kek700

What track conditions were you running at Brands? I have no GT3 laps at Brands somehow.

Since I have no laps, was thinking I could take Haf's setup, adjust gearing for brands and then compare that with the 650s there to see how close they on a track where I have no experience in either car.

Did you just go up 1 click on final drive ratio on his?

 

[Kek700]

Time of day 10:00
Ambient 17 deg C
Mid clear
Track surface optimum
Wind and direction : Random

that was a problem I could not alleviate, stiff suspension easily overheated the tyres, so dropped it to 17 deg C
That gave me a track temp of 22 deg C

No left it the same but changed the three lower values

56,79,101,118,141,160 final 10/50 . did not want to mess with it too much.

 

[HF2000]

Ps,

just noticed in my notes, my setup had much smoother steering inputs, with your setup I was fighting the car during corner entry.

Loved your evaluation. ThX! Can you give me the gear setting you used? Both you and Robert are saying that mine was rubbish so I'd like to learn what I'm doing wrong with that.

 

[Kek700]

It can be a bit of a complicated subject but for a one race setup situation; spend far too much time with the umpteen variables as it is.

1) Always run lowest diff setting I can get away with.
2) look at torque and power delivery curves, I always pay most attention to power delivery.
3) even if it tails off after max power, to change up a gear is going to noticeably downgrade the torque acting on the diff + time with power removed.
4) As they are race engines I always go for as even as I can spread between each gear, usually every 20mph. ( or as near as you can )
5) I keep to that through thick and thin, if I run to the rev limiter before lifting for a corner I have to have exhausted all possibilities before I up the gear, assuming there is not a small adjustment available.

It only takes a car with an odd power curve or gearbox ratio's to turn all of the above upside down.

I go through the above before every race preparation in my head after I have done a practice lap.

I am sure someone could turn it into an epic with all the variables available, but for a one off race-department race that's more than enough.

first =56
second = 79
third = 101
forth = 118
fifth = 141
sixth = 160

final 10/50

 

[HF2000]

It can be a bit of a complicated subject but for a one race setup situation; spend far too much time with the umpteen variables as it is.

1) Always run lowest diff setting I can get away with.
2) look at torque and power delivery curves, I always pay most attention to power delivery.
3) even if it tails off after max power, to change up a gear is going to noticeably downgrade the torque acting on the diff + time with power removed.
4) As they are race engines I always go for as even as I can spread between each gear, usually every 20mph. ( or as near as you can )
5) I keep to that through thick and thin, if I run to the rev limiter before lifting for a corner I have to have exhausted all possibilities before I up the gear, assuming there is not a small adjustment available.

It only takes a car with an odd power curve or gearbox ratio's to turn all of the above upside down.

I go through the above before every race preparation in my head after I have done a practice lap.

I am sure someone could turn it into an epic with all the variables available, but for a one off race-department race that's more than enough.

first =56
second = 79
third = 101
forth = 118
fifth = 141
sixth = 160

final 10/50

Ah, I saw those figures in Robert's post but I didn't recognize them because they're in miles obviously ! And thanks very much for the explanation.Where do you look for the torque and powerdelivery curves? Is that the graph within the car selection screen of AC?

 

[RobertR1]

@HF2000 I don't have the knowledge of Ernie as above but I was just staying from a driving standpoint. I was running into the rev limiter before going into the fast left after the slow downhill left in 3rd which was putting me in a weird spot of shifting up and losing exit drive or coasting in which was costing me entry speed.

Same with the slow left after that section. I felt that if had a longer 2nd gear instead going to 3rd than 2nd again, it'd be better.

In T1, 3rd was running out of gear mid exit but 4th was too slow so things like that.

 

[HF2000]

@HF2000 I don't have the knowledge of Ernie as above but I was just staying from a driving standpoint. I was running into the rev limiter before going into the fast left after the slow downhill left in 3rd which was putting me in a weird spot of shifting up and losing exit drive or coasting in which was costing me entry speed.

Same with the slow left after that section. I felt that if had a longer 2nd gear instead going to 3rd than 2nd again, it'd be better.

In T1, 3rd was running out of gear mid exit but 4th was too slow so things like that.

Ah that makes sense. I never payed much attention to those things but I now understand that these are very basic principles for racing. Thanks very much!

 

[Kek700]

Where do you look for the torque and power delivery curves? Is that the graph within the car selection screen of AC?

yes.

keeping to 30kph per gear seems like a good rule of thumb

I don't like big spreads for any reason, short spaces between gears always keeps the engine working at its best.

I am sure there is bound to be umpteen reason to counter that.

 

[RobertR1]

So I put a few laps in tonight to learn Brands in a GT3 and used my normal setup:

I was having a lot of issues with the bumps and curbs on the track. If you watch it, the perfect example is the right hander on the top of the hill towards the end of the lap. My car takes off when I try to use the inside apex and I'm along of the right and losing time. Same with the right hander before it and the left hander after it.

Even the exit onto the back straight, I can't put the power down as my car bounces, gets a bunch of wheelspin, TC cuts in and kills my exit drive.

I can't attack the track at all. It was a messy lap in general but I came across this car bouncing everywhere issue right away and wanted to see what I can do before putting more time into it.

Any recommendations on where to adjust this behavior and calm the car down?

 

[Kek700]

This is something that has interested me of late, at the momoment I am under the opinion that the traction control in AC is very basic, one wheel starts to spin, cut engine.

That’s it.

You either have access to information or you don’t, people like myself are just usually stuck. Unable to wade though the software, assuming you can, don’t know anyone, just have to pick up bits of information that may arrive once in a blue moon. assuming you can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

I am trying running diff power quite high at present, under the illusion, “probably”, that If I make both tyres spin the traction control will not want to activate.

Balancing it with TC limiter to give the right conditions so that stability out of the corner is reasonably maintained where necessary and I get full drive with no unwanted TC.

This is the rub, I am, and I have tried, to run with no traction control, to me this has to be the quickest, because of the statement I made earlier.

Just cannot, so like most I run traction control to help me to navigate my way safely around the circuit. To me that seems somewhat at odds with racing for its application
requirements, if you follow. If TC was attached to the cars roll angle to me that would make some sense, applying more when roll angle were high less as the car
starts to balance out.

What you described is perfectly normal for all the cars I have driven on this circuit ( GT3 ) the audi looks good in this respect, the GTR is terrible.

in my Nissan GT-R, I have gone to all lengths, and have been beaten, trying and eliminate the constant TC cutting in, in the places you mentioned.

its the out of corner application that are the time reducers, it will also do it on some straights.

that is a very long winded and probably pointless answer.

I don’t know.

PS, great lap.

All my laps at brands have that sort of feedback you described, to me it is just the way brands is.

Until I can find a solution.

I think a lot of this can be helped with damping, but when you think of a couple of laps each time, fine adjustments of bound, rebound, fast rebound and fast bound then adjustments to diff power with TC to find that solution and actually having a life.

All with out much previous information to go with it all and then it just may not technically be viable within AC.

It sort of makes running with no TC more of an attractive option.

if you get somewhere with this, let me know, likewise I will do the same,

This is at present my main focus.


You could send me your 650s setup and I will have a ponder, I am used to the 650S, quite often running it.

 

[RobertR1]

I’ve seen people on YouTube gliding over those curbs and putting the power down so it’s doable for sure. This is relation to the right handers at the back end of the track.

For the exit to the back straight, I made sure to square off the corner so my hands were open and no lateral load was in the car and still nothing. I lugged 4th through the turn and same thing.

I’ll loosen up TC just for that turn next time I drive to see if it helps at all. But really not that fun to drive when you feel like a passenger more than a driver.

 

[Kek700]

My only suggestion at present would be to turn in much later looking to take a very late exit and not follow the curb, looking to keep a higher peripheral speed to compensate for the longer distance travelled. And hope you miss the series of bumps there.

I know you can do that Robert, I cannot.

hope I am talking about the correct corner, knowing me I am lucky if I am talking about the same circuit.

tomorrow will run the 650S there to see if it is a car problem.