Debate: The Rights and Wrongs of the Verstappen Penalty

[Durge Driven]

If it happened to 12th and 13th place it would have been a non-issue

 

[snyperal]

I agree with nniki lauds's sentiments. His split second decision was take the corner or collide with Kimi, if he had hit Kimi the stewards would've savaged him for wrecking, he had the line, and it may have been a little divebomb esque but he was committed to that move.

How many times as sim racers have we seen similar end on tears?

Interestingly, if Hami had came out of his pits behind Seb, do you think the stewards would've made him give the place back? Obviously, Lewis would've pressed his Usain Bolt button and overtook him before the end of the lap, but it does make me wonder.

 

[MoerasGrizzly]

He's Dutch - "idiot" and "Mongol" are probably the cleaned up versions of what he really wants to say!

Mongol refers to down syndrome in dutch, so, err, no

 

[Maro_Marinov]

Like I mentioned in the USGP thread, this penalty is completely justified on its own, however it is the inconsistency which was there for the whole weekend which should cause the debate

This.
On the other hand, if tracks were like they were a few years ago, there would be no such debates.
Just make them the old fashion way - track (tarmac), curb, grass/gravel.
Then there will be no moves like that Verstappen one. Plain and simple.
I understand perfectly, that the tracks are like they are because of safety reasons, but the whole "track limits" issue is already beyond ridiculous.
This thread/debate proves it..

 

[Paul Glover]

Agree with the sentiment on it's own merit the overtake was illegal.

As Channel 4 rightly highlighted at the end of the race there is a lack of consistency, seemed that the rule is not applied when going outside the track limits when hunting down the car in front.

There is a dilemma here as these newer tracks that do not have gravel traps etc allow it to happen, how can they monitor each car on each lap. On board sensors? Act like AC etc?

I blame Bernie for this mess!

 

[InsaneOzzie]

Well, they're called "Track Limits", you are supposed to receive some penalty for exceeding them, all of them, not just some of them

So I do agree it's the inconsistency that makes the penalty "appaling"

Not enforcing "non important" transgressions is like, I gain a half sec here and there as long as they let me, but cant use the same trick on the last lap?

FIA management of penalties is BS and causes this controversy, I do feel sorry for the kid, and for Kimi, because he drank his water while chatting at large with the big guys...

So you expect the FIA to penalized every driver for their track limit transgressions? do you realise how ridiculous that would be

If it happened to 12th and 13th place it would have been a non-issue

But it wasn't, why try and make an argument from fiction, a scenario in your mind that has no substance, just your opinion based on what you think of the FIA. Maybe you should volunteer to be a track marshal or a race steward and see how hard it is before condemning them.

Without officials there would be no safe, fair racing anywhere, how do I know, I'm a track official/flag marshal @Barbagallo Raceway.

 

[joostingh]

Well I saw Max pushing Bottas off the track and got away with it. If there was a wall he would have never snatched the place. But for Max there seems to be no rules

And gave the position back.. so nothing wrong there. And did you see Alonso on Massa in the same corner (2016 I believe). He did hit Massa and got away with it (and passed him)

So here you are wrong. I'm a big Ferrari fan and Dutch. And as stated earlier, the overtake was illegal. But please make sure everyone or none are getting penalties. So take away Lewis his pole lap etc.

 

[Rob Every]

There was no thought of an accident in Max's mind, he wasn't trying to avoid anything.

He was chancing his arm on a pass, that is all he was trying here.

 

[Marius Schoeman]

This overtake was not legal - and I am a huge Verstappen fan. But so was all the other driving when all 4 wheels went over the track limits (White lines). Usually one should get a warning... but after third offence get penalty. As for passing someone like that you should give the place back which Max didn't... It's bad but it's right. He was still the driver of the day IMHO. He didn't deliberately cheat to try and get podium.

 

[Andy_J]

This overtake was not legal

But it was blatantly illegal. And it is in every branch of motorsport. Would you like it done to you in a club or league race here at RD too? I am flabberdiscombobulated by some of the reasoning and fan boy defence on here.

 

[joostingh]

But it was blatantly illegal. And it is in every branch of motorsport.

And there you are wrong. Do you know the overtake from Zanardi (Indycar) and Rossi (MotoGP) on Laguna Seca... both were fighting for the win and won the race after such an overtake ;-)

Still please let it be and go on to the next race.

 

[Durge Driven]

But it wasn't, why try and make an argument from fiction, a scenario in your mind that has no substance, just your opinion based on what you think of the FIA. Maybe you should volunteer to be a track marshal or a race steward and see how hard it is before condemning them.

It was a hypothetical ? who is arguing ? all I see is you getting personal

I am not beholden to you, so hypothetically if it was cars out of the points do you think there would be this sort of response, because I don't ......................and who condemned anyone

 

[HK2014]

So you expect the FIA to penalized every driver for their track limit transgressions? do you realise how ridiculous that would be

That's just the way it should be. I don't get it why there is only so few penalties about going offtrack... There are rules, you go offtrack -> you are penalised, that's just it. this should apply on every track. This is like the top of Eau rouge, we could see every drivers going off the limits but looks like nobody cares.. this is just ridiculous, there are limits so they have to respect them.

 

[Ruy Horta]

Track design.

In general the track should take care of passing the limits - curbstones, gravel, grass and/or walls - where that creates too dangerous a situation, crossing the line should only be punished if repeated multiple times - unsportsmanlike driving - or of clear instant advantage, like overtaking (not incuding avoiding action).

Less rules, more room for the specific situation and most of all tracks that demand a price for risk taking. Safety zones are boring for the sport and need dumb rules to reintroduce some artificial limitations / restrictions that the track does not have.

That's why I stopped watching F1 and love to watch something like Supercars.

 

[Ruy Horta]

That's just the way it should be. I don't get it why there is only so few penalties about going offtrack... There are rules, you go offtrack -> you are penalised, that's just it. this should apply on every track. This is like the top of Eau rouge, we could see every drivers going off the limits but looks like nobody cares.. this is just ridiculous, there are limits so they have to respect them.

Good example.
Ruin Eau Rouge, create rule to substitute track difficulty.
Rule does not work well, not because of lack of respect but poor design.

Now you can blame the rule, but you should ask why drivers break the rule.

 

[RacingManiacGT1]

So you expect the FIA to penalized every driver for their track limit transgressions? do you realise how ridiculous that would be

They should, for something like a track limit it should be just a penalty or no penalty, not a judgement. Its not one car hitting another car for what reason. With the current style of track you need to make it black and white. In the past the penalties are self-enforced, since you run off onto the gravel or grass(or into an armco at Monaco), you probably will be penalized by something happening to the car. Now you get nothing. Now you can have cars forcing another off the track and that can be a different story. But in cases like what I see Bottas doing where you probably would've backed off if it had happened at say Turn 1 at Suzuka as opposed to just track further out and just drive yourself out of the runoff and maintained position. Or as this case where Verstappen executed a pass off track, or a qualifying lap with 4 off. Those are pretty clear cut and they all should be penalized.

 

[Stanislav Minakov]

even post thumbnail shows how deep he was in this turn. He also gained a lot of advantage by this move. But this is not only driver problem or stewards, it's a complex problem of modern track design which requires big safety zones all over the track. If this track had been built in 80-90s there was no such a problem, just 1 feet of the curb and grass or even wall. Like in Watkins-Glen. There is no need to do safety zones INSIDE the track that wide and deep.And if you're crashing into this it's YOUR fault, not track designers. But Verstappen Sr. made things much much worse. This is more confusing and shamefully than Mexico-2016.

 

[Turk]

There is a dilemma here as these newer tracks that do not have gravel traps etc allow it to happen, how can they monitor each car on each lap. On board sensors? Act like AC etc?

There's bound to be technology out there that can tell when a car's gone outside the track that would make the whole process automatic. A few sensors would put an instant end to this drama. They need to have a zero tolerance for exceeding track limits, and have it enforced immediately without any interaction from a human. It's not that hard in this day and age. I wouldn't even allow for 3 strikes or any of that, go outside the track apply an immediate 1 or 2 second penalty, whether the driver gained an advantage or not.

Less rules, more room for the specific situation and most of all tracks that demand a price for risk taking. Safety zones are boring for the sport and need dumb rules to reintroduce some artificial limitations / restrictions that the track does not have.

That's all well and good but it will never happen, you're basically asking people to take unnecessary risks for your entertainment. It's not fair or right to ask another person to do that. There's no need to make a dangerous track just to discourage drivers from exceeding track limits. Just enforce the rules that are already there. That's all that needs to be done here, enforce the rules.

 

[François Strat]

Honestly, if the FIA wants everybody driving with 2 wheels between the lines, why the **** do they homologate race tracks with 3 meters wide kerbs ??
Put sand or grass 1 meter after the line, and no one will try cutting anything ^_^ !

 

[gamer19]

For safety reasons.