List of Automobilista 2 Cars with Updated Tire Model

NobodyKnowsReally · May 14, 2022

Amanda said:
At the end of the day, there's no convincing the "aficionados" that their product has a defect and most of the times all effort is wasted. I noticed this mostly in the "nerdy tech world" but it happens everywhere where there's someone emotionally attached to something. Whenever I show clear problems with a product, the fans have a hard time admitting to it. And I'm not saying I'm right 100% of the times (or even half of that, or any % of times), but at least I'm glad that quite a lot of the problems I point out get fixed, like how I've commented on how rF2 players exploit(ed) overrevving their engines under braking in order to brake a lot later than they should - a lot of the fans obviously dismissed the problem with the same blablabla as always, but at the end of the day S397 fixed the problem by introducing downshift protection, something me and other players have been asking for many years and is 100% realistic.

This time I did a more scientific test with with more sims.

Now, onto the video. The sims in question:
- AMS2;
- ACC;
- rFactor 2
- AMS1 (3 different cars)

In the following test, I'll start at the Spa Francorchamps sign (0:03) at 200 Km/h and accelerate going into the kemmel straight, and brake 100% at the 200 m sign and point the wheel to the right.
NOTE: I couldn't get a pedal info HUD on rFactor 2, but I was braking 100% just as the other sims.

All GT3 cars tested have the same brake pressure and brake bias.
As you'll be able to see, every other sim simulates aggressive trail braking perfectly. Even AMS1, which is based off of rFactor 1, does this perfectly - and it being based on rF1 isn't a problem since rFactor 1 has been demonstrated to be +99% accurate. And guess what, aggressive trail braking works as intended there too and in all it's children as well.

I would've included more simulators, like Raceroom, Race07/GTR2, Assetto Corsa, BeamNG???, Copa Petrobras de Marcas, but my time to test this and to edit the videos (as well as my HDD space) is limited.
But anyone who has those sims can attest to the fact that you can drive like a real driver in them ;-)

In the end, all I can do is throw my arms in the air and say "I tried". My goal here is not to try and convince 2 people that aggressive trail braking is a thing in real life and it's a problem in AMS2. My hope is that the issue gets to the developer's attention and that they at least investigate it. If they decide to fix it, great - if not, then it's OK too and at least I tried making the sim a little better than it already is - seriously, if not for this problem (which doesn't exist anywhere else than PC2/AMS2), AMS2 would be my go-to sim.

Congratulations for your very scientific method. I expect you to win a Nobel prize soon.
The only thing I can say is that I suspect the ABS is not working correctly. And I suppose that gives you and many others issues.
It would be nice if people with so much experience could also try to explain the cause of the issue, instead of saying just "that's wrong, because I am pretty much a racing driver".

Quintarelli's post is proof of his great work (he hasn't "demonstrated" anything, so please read the article before making yourself look silly - it doesn't say 99% anywhere).

Richard Wilks · May 14, 2022

Amanda said:
At the end of the day, there's no convincing the "aficionados" that their product has a defect and most of the times all effort is wasted. I noticed this mostly in the "nerdy tech world" but it happens everywhere where there's someone emotionally attached to something. Whenever I show clear problems with a product, the fans have a hard time admitting to it. And I'm not saying I'm right 100% of the times (or even half of that, or any % of times), but at least I'm glad that quite a lot of the problems I point out get fixed, like how I've commented on how rF2 players exploit(ed) overrevving their engines under braking in order to brake a lot later than they should - a lot of the fans obviously dismissed the problem with the same blablabla as always, but at the end of the day S397 fixed the problem by introducing downshift protection, something me and other players have been asking for many years and is 100% realistic.

This time I did a more scientific test with with more sims.

Now, onto the video. The sims in question:
- AMS2;
- ACC;
- rFactor 2
- AMS1 (3 different cars)

In the following test, I'll start at the Spa Francorchamps sign (0:03) at 200 Km/h and accelerate going into the kemmel straight, and brake 100% at the 200 m sign and point the wheel to the right.
NOTE: I couldn't get a pedal info HUD on rFactor 2, but I was braking 100% just as the other sims.

All GT3 cars tested have the same brake pressure and brake bias.
As you'll be able to see, every other sim simulates aggressive trail braking perfectly. Even AMS1, which is based off of rFactor 1, does this perfectly - and it being based on rF1 isn't a problem since rFactor 1 has been demonstrated to be +99% accurate. And guess what, aggressive trail braking works as intended there too and in all it's children as well.

I would've included more simulators, like Raceroom, Race07/GTR2, Assetto Corsa, BeamNG, Copa Petrobras de Marcas, but my time to test this and to edit the videos (as well as my HDD space) is limited.
But anyone who has those sims can attest to the fact that you can drive like a real driver in them ;-)

In the end, all I can do is throw my arms in the air and say "I tried". My goal here is not to try and convince 2 people that aggressive trail braking is a thing in real life and it's a problem in AMS2. My hope is that the issue gets to the developer's attention and that they at least investigate it. If they decide to fix it, great - if not, then it's OK too and at least I tried making the sim a little better than it already is - seriously, if not for this problem (which doesn't exist anywhere else than PC2/AMS2), AMS2 would be my go-to sim.

Anybody who knows me around here knows i am anything but an aficionado of AMS2.

That said, i can make generalizations too, and a big one is simracers never accepting it's their fault, and wanting the games they play to be dumbed down, ups sorry, fixed to whatever they imagine in their heads is more realistic, which many times conveniently is what makes them quick, or keeps them on the track.

AMS1's default content was ripe of exploits and massive trailing braking and bombing corners made you quick. It's hardly an example either. As it is most of the simracing stuff.

First thing any driving coach says of simracers is that they are either afraid of everything, or they just drive too hard, and try to brake too late into every corner. I dont think that's a coincidence.

Richard Wilks · May 14, 2022

REDSINWHITE said:
Usually real life driver complains of how some sims are unrealistically twitchy compare to irl (at least on a dry track), and how in reality you can get away with murder and "attack the car" way more.

You can hear them comparing laps and some general comparison here and here

"Twichy" is not the same as being impossible to lose the car on the brakes.

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
I still don't see the point of comparing it to ACC.

ACC is renowned for being the "trail brake simulator" at this point, and its almost impossible to lose the car on the brakes there, something that is not realistic at all.

In all those videos i see of you spinning ,you are asking clearly more than what the car can give. This is correct behaviour. If laptimes are aligned with reality, then we would need 1:1 telemetry with reality to see if those are aligned as well. But from what i see in those videos, there is nothing wrong with AMS2, as opposed to ACC.

ABS can be a factor there too, but i dont think whats happening is the rears locking, i think its just a matter of too much weight transfer too hard.

I agree. ACC is known to be a sim where you can sit aggressively on the ABS and the brakes in all stages which is just not physically possible in real life vehicle dynamics.
Using it as a benchmark of what you should be able to do with brakes leads nowhere.

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

Amanda said:
At the end of the day, there's no convincing the "aficionados" that their product has a defect and most of the times all effort is wasted. I noticed this mostly in the "nerdy tech world" but it happens everywhere where there's someone emotionally attached to something. Whenever I show clear problems with a product, the fans have a hard time admitting to it. And I'm not saying I'm right 100% of the times (or even half of that, or any % of times), but at least I'm glad that quite a lot of the problems I point out get fixed, like how I've commented on how rF2 players exploit(ed) overrevving their engines under braking in order to brake a lot later than they should - a lot of the fans obviously dismissed the problem with the same blablabla as always, but at the end of the day S397 fixed the problem by introducing downshift protection, something me and other players have been asking for many years and is 100% realistic.

This time I did a more scientific test with with more sims.

Now, onto the video. The sims in question:
- AMS2;
- ACC;
- rFactor 2
- AMS1 (3 different cars)

In the following test, I'll start at the Spa Francorchamps sign (0:03) at 200 Km/h and accelerate going into the kemmel straight, and brake 100% at the 200 m sign and point the wheel to the right.
NOTE: I couldn't get a pedal info HUD on rFactor 2, but I was braking 100% just as the other sims.

All GT3 cars tested have the same brake pressure and brake bias.
As you'll be able to see, every other sim simulates aggressive trail braking perfectly. Even AMS1, which is based off of rFactor 1, does this perfectly - and it being based on rF1 isn't a problem since rFactor 1 has been demonstrated to be +99% accurate. And guess what, aggressive trail braking works as intended there too and in all it's children as well.

I would've included more simulators, like Raceroom, Race07/GTR2, Assetto Corsa, BeamNG, Copa Petrobras de Marcas, but my time to test this and to edit the videos (as well as my HDD space) is limited.
But anyone who has those sims can attest to the fact that you can drive like a real driver in them ;-)

In the end, all I can do is throw my arms in the air and say "I tried". My goal here is not to try and convince 2 people that aggressive trail braking is a thing in real life and it's a problem in AMS2. My hope is that the issue gets to the developer's attention and that they at least investigate it. If they decide to fix it, great - if not, then it's OK too and at least I tried making the sim a little better than it already is - seriously, if not for this problem (which doesn't exist anywhere else than PC2/AMS2), AMS2 would be my go-to sim.

Not sure which kind of magic you were able to do but this is what happens to me if I smash the brakes the way you do with the baseline setup even with 100% brake pressure. I can not have the car turn that way. I believe it could be something with the DOR or steering sensitivity that you are doing. Even with BB moved 5% to the rear I cannot lose the rear of the car.
My results in the same test are completely opposite to yours.
HD version still processing

Havner · May 14, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
Not sure which kind of magic you were able to do but this is what happens to me if I smash the brakes the way you do with the baseline setup even with 100% brake pressure. I can not have the car turn that way.

Try that with Ginetta GT4. That's the car that has this issue the strongest of the ones I tested.
It can even loose rear in almost straight line under heavy braking. It stops this behaviour when you move the default BB forward by some insane amount like 8-10%.

REDSINWHITE · May 14, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
"Twichy" is not the same as being impossible to lose the car on the brakes.

Nope, but apparently how easily you can lose the car in (he metioned and compared it to Iracing, I would add AMS2 ) is far from real, and actually ACC does the better job at simulating how a car would behave irl

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

REDSINWHITE said:
Nope, but apparently how easily you can lose the car in (he metioned and compared it to Iracing, I would add AMS2 ) is far from real, and actually ACC does the better job at simulating how a car would behave irl

Based on what? When even real racing drivers say they do not brake in real life the way ACC requires them?
I race in iracing since years and it's far worse than ANY sim in terms of rear locking in a straight line...
We are just in a marketing bubble mixed with people who likely have their hardware setup the wrong way.

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

Havner said:
Try that with Ginetta GT4. That's the car that has this issue the strongest of the ones I tested.
It can even loose rear in almost straight line under heavy braking. It stops this behaviour when you move the default BB forward by some insane amount like 8-10%.

There you go.
First attempt is after 2 warm up laps with setup fully stock, that is where the video starts (60% F/R and 90% brake pressure).
Second attempt is 55% F/R and 100% brake pressure on cold tires. Nothing crazy here as well.
Final attempt is 52% F/R and 100% brake pressure on cold tires. No crazy rear loss here too.

Havner · May 14, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
There you go.
First attempt is after 2 warm up laps with setup fully stock, that is where the video starts (60% F/R and 90% brake pressure).
Second attempt is 55% F/R and 100% brake pressure on cold tires. Nothing crazy here as well.
Final attempt is 52% F/R and 100% brake pressure on cold tires. No crazy rear loss here too.

The first try you lost the rear and immediately corrected for it. If you were entering a corner you might've not had the room to do that.

REDSINWHITE · May 14, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
Based on what? When even real racing drivers say they do not brake in real life the way ACC requires them?
I race in iracing since years and it's far worse than ANY sim in terms of rear locking in a straight line...
We are just in a marketing bubble mixed with people who likely have their hardware setup the wrong way.

based on people that race cars for a living and can actually compare

(I've linked them before, but in case you've missed them, here there's a comparison irl/acc/Iracing, same car, same track and general comparison here)

But you do have a fair point on marketing, like how much of what people say, especially racing drivers, is real and how much is "paid advertising"? we shall never know..

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

REDSINWHITE said:
based on people that race cars for a living and can actually compare
(I've linked them before, but in case you've missed them, here there's a comparison irl/acc/Iracing, same car, same track and general comparison here)

But you do have a fair point on marketing, like how much of what people say, especially racing drivers, is real and how much is "paid advertising"? we shall never know..

Some other drivers won't agree.. So who is right?

Moradness - We don't smash the brakes...

Watch Moradness's clip titled "We don't smash the brakes..."

clips.twitch.tv

MadDriver11 · May 14, 2022

Havner said:
The first try you lost the rear and immediately corrected for it. If you were entering a corner you might've not had the room to do that.

I turned the other way because the track was over exactly trying the same exercise of changing lane repeatedly trying to loop the car as the other gentleman in all the other sims. If I keep turning I will go in the grass and it wouldn't be useful for our test. Also when you are entering a corner you are unlikely to turn abruptly by 180 degrees your wheel at 200 kph...
Here is with only one direction input in the same conditions as the previous first try. Actually going to the right and then to the left unsettled the car more as you can see.
Actually, after an hour of testing the Ginetta at Spa I settled for 58% BB with rear rebound dampers 2 clicks softer. I also find that the vast majority of rear instability comes from downshifting hard. That is the thing I found I had to concentrate the most to keep the rear in check, but this is not the setup showed in the video. The video uses Reiza's baseline.

Metla · May 15, 2022

Personally, I'm aware that all the time I have spent in ACC has conditioned me to expect similar cars in other games to react in the same manner, This is compounded by the fact I have no real world comparison experience or expertise.

So, I tend to use cars in AMS2 that aren't in ACC.

Havner · May 15, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
The video uses Reiza's baseline.

You're extremely soft on the brakes. Like extremely. Like you were driving the car without ABS.
And guess what. For the whole lap you did the ABS did not activate even ONCE. Is it a good driving technique? Maybe. But it's not the way you usually drive cars designed with ABS in mind.
Can I drive it so it won't loose the rear? I can, the same way (I wrote few posts earlier that I learned to drive ABS cars the way I drive those without). Showing a lap where you did not loose it does not prove anything. The fact that you had to do this without ABS actually does.
Yes, the car didn't loose rear here when you crashed it. Usually it does for me. Minor differences might come in play.
But the way you drive that lap tells me you had issues with driving it aggressively (braking). Show me a lap like this driving aggressively with leaning on the ABS. Like you would drive in any other sim. It's simply impossible in this car with default setup. Yes, we don't know what is realistic, what isn't. But when all the sims but one do something in the same way, you might be on to some issue. You can run this with little ABS activation, still you have to extremely cautious about it and not lean on it.

I did my testing with default setup and autoshift to eliminate aggressive downshifts from the equation.

McLaren GT4 doesn't seem to have this problem. McLaren GT3 on the other hand does although not as big as Ginnetta. Maybe it's default setup issue. Maybe it's buggy ABS. I don't know. I'm not saying physics are broken. But there definitely is something unnatural happening.

M-Bimmer · May 15, 2022

Raced last weekend with the Formula ultimate gen.2 pretty much on all tracks with DRS and the car felt amazing. Been away for AMS2 for a while because of the legacy bugs and some messy 2021 updates. Really hope for that ranking system and the legacy bugs to be wiped out before i turn 50. Fingers crossed

MadDriver11 · May 15, 2022

Havner said:
And guess what. For the whole lap you did the ABS did not activate even ONCE. Is it a good driving technique? Maybe. But it's not the way you usually drive cars designed with ABS in mind.

It's a lap on stone cold tires, I will not push it. Secondly, with baseline setup (ABS=8) you don't get a lot of activation as ABS in certain cars is weak, Ginetta being one of them. If you see my lap in the time trials (it's the 2nd laptime in the Ginetta after Nemesis) I will use abs=9-10 and it does activate. You can grab my setup and push it, once the tires are warm. The warm up lap wasn't conceived to prove anything other than put some temperature in the tires.
Third yes I am generally sensitive footed as needed when I brake and that is because I have good pedals that rumble and vibrate when I am locking so I get used not to sit on the abs excessively.
By the way: you may have noticed that the Ginetta is having rear wing set to 1 out of 9. If you find it too critical on the rear, you can always put some wing in it, since 1 probably is a bit on the low side...

The conversation however was on proving that in the Kemmel straight you could lose the rear just by smashing on the brakes, which is factually not true at my end. So it boils down to how your hardware is set likely or whether you are not having an issue with resetting to default the garage.
At my end even with baseline setup which is not optimal the exercise is not verified. Full stop.

davehenrie · May 15, 2022

All I know is from TV. AJ Almendinger was the temporary 3rd driver for the Rolex24hr two years ago. He drove the Meyer/Shank Acura NSX GT3. The advice he got from the regular two drivers was to really really ABUSE the ABS. It took him some time to get as aggressive as they were on the brake pedal.

MadDriver11 · May 15, 2022

Doesn't look like what Daniel Morad would recommend and apparently they would drive in the same series..
There is also a very valid engineering reason: the way the ABS works is to sense where the limit is by causing high frequency micro-locks and then release the pressure (that is the reason for the pedal pulsing). So really sitting on the ABS has two consequences: first you will eat your tires much faster, second your car will wash out a lot at turn in because the micro-locks will eat most of your lateral grip budget.
The best way to use the ABS is to perceive the activation and play with your foot to just trigger it and modulate to stop it.

R.Man · May 16, 2022

Amanda said:
At the end of the day, there's no convincing the "aficionados" that their product has a defect and most of the times all effort is wasted. I noticed this mostly in the "nerdy tech world" but it happens everywhere where there's someone emotionally attached to something. Whenever I show clear problems with a product, the fans have a hard time admitting to it. And I'm not saying I'm right 100% of the times (or even half of that, or any % of times), but at least I'm glad that quite a lot of the problems I point out get fixed, like how I've commented on how rF2 players exploit(ed) overrevving their engines under braking in order to brake a lot later than they should - a lot of the fans obviously dismissed the problem with the same blablabla as always, but at the end of the day S397 fixed the problem by introducing downshift protection, something me and other players have been asking for many years and is 100% realistic.

This time I did a more scientific test with with more sims.

Now, onto the video. The sims in question:
- AMS2;
- ACC;
- rFactor 2
- AMS1 (3 different cars)

In the following test, I'll start at the Spa Francorchamps sign (0:03) at 200 Km/h and accelerate going into the kemmel straight, and brake 100% at the 200 m sign and point the wheel to the right.
NOTE: I couldn't get a pedal info HUD on rFactor 2, but I was braking 100% just as the other sims.

All GT3 cars tested have the same brake pressure and brake bias.
As you'll be able to see, every other sim simulates aggressive trail braking perfectly. Even AMS1, which is based off of rFactor 1, does this perfectly - and it being based on rF1 isn't a problem since rFactor 1 has been demonstrated to be +99% accurate. And guess what, aggressive trail braking works as intended there too and in all it's children as well.

I would've included more simulators, like Raceroom, Race07/GTR2, Assetto Corsa, BeamNG, Copa Petrobras de Marcas, but my time to test this and to edit the videos (as well as my HDD space) is limited.
But anyone who has those sims can attest to the fact that you can drive like a real driver in them ;-)

In the end, all I can do is throw my arms in the air and say "I tried". My goal here is not to try and convince 2 people that aggressive trail braking is a thing in real life and it's a problem in AMS2. My hope is that the issue gets to the developer's attention and that they at least investigate it. If they decide to fix it, great - if not, then it's OK too and at least I tried making the sim a little better than it already is - seriously, if not for this problem (which doesn't exist anywhere else than PC2/AMS2), AMS2 would be my go-to sim.

Do no waste your energy, whatever you'll say AMS2 fans will reject any possibility of issue by nature . I've exchanged with them enough to understand how they are. They will only say X feature was bad the day Reiza will update this X feature. Before that they will say it's perfect...This is how this community works. This is why AMS2 has difficulty to grow faster than it should, there is a tendency to insult people intelligence like they are doing with you right now. I remember when they tried to prove on Youtube that AMS2 had lift off oversteer.... An another example those guys happy with the highly marketing bluff "fake" new tyre model ( more updated parameters than new tyre model ) are the same that was very happy with the previous tyre versions and defended them fiercely. If you need to be heard directly create a Youtube channel with "what's wrong with AMS2" video series. Reiza will listen to you faster a you'll not have the fans barrier.

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