List of Automobilista 2 Cars with Updated Tire Model

David Peres said:

It seems like Oez (physics) and Steelcast (setups)

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I thought something had changed and I'm not so sure it's good, so many car seem to drive with the same feeling now, going from the Porsche Cup to the Stock cars there is this same feel like they all are just tiny differences with the way they step out.
I will have to do more testing though.

When they say "updated tire model", do they just mean that certain cars have had their tyres updated but still using the exact same physics engine (physics engine including tire model), or do they mean that the core tyre model itself has actually been updated?

updated: means a gradual progression from the previous tire. Since they make no other mention of other physics changes, one would assume the updated tire model is......an updated tire model.

Spinelli said:

When they say "updated tire model", do they just mean that certain cars have had their tyres updated but still using the exact same physics engine (physics engine including tire model), or do they mean that the core tyre model itself has actually been updated?

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In Madness Engine the SETA tire model is made of 3 sub-models: the tire carcass model, the thread model and the thermal model. Different classes of cars have different parameters of the above.
In the case of these latest updates the carcass model has been modified to stiffer parameters for several classes of cars.
Physics engine is always Madness Engine so not sure how one could consider changing that and not sure what you would call core tire model as opposed to tires updates.

Crilin said:

Do you mean Racecraft.online? (https://app.racecraft.online/).
It has great potential. As soon as it start increasing the player base is going to be great to have ranked races in AMS2.

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Yep, exactly that one.

Nice thing about AMS2 is that it can have AI in multiplayer and the platform you've mentioned adds AI to the race in case there are not enough drivers to race against. Also it continously analyze driver performance and tries to match AI and driver skill level - it's something like RRE adaptive AI but for multiplayer.

I'm loving most of these cars, but I was trying the GT4's and I didn't think the Cayman felt so great. The McLaren 570 feels feels awesome though. Is there something wrong with the Cayman, or is it just how its meant to feel? I'm not getting that gritty tire feedback sensation that I now get with the other vastly improved cars on the list above.

MadDriver11 said:

Try hotter track temps on the same track and see if it is better. I find that not very hot track temps sort of turn off the tires.

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Lefthook said:

There are still issues with the car that have been identified. It is a powerful car for certain but the way it rotates on power is comical at the moment. Also the real car can attack curbs while this version cannot.
It is expected to be addressed in the upcoming update. Some of the things you describe however are not my experience with the car so I am unsure what is happening.

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Cheers lads, I do like the raw experience of the super v8s (antithesis of modern GT3), but last night was a bit much. I was probably overdriving the car a bit as I'm out of practise (end of 2018 I trapped a nerve in my shoulder, then when I was recovered enough my rig monitor refused to work with my new PC....saved up for a new monitor 3 weeks or so ago...so yeah around 3 years of not using my rig!), I'm not sure if I got the hards into the window so to speak, any info on optimum temp for those tyres?

Damage Inc said:

Cheers lads, I do like the raw experience of the super v8s (antithesis of modern GT3), but last night was a bit much. I was probably overdriving the car a bit as I'm out of practise (end of 2018 I trapped a nerve in my shoulder, then when I was recovered enough my rig monitor refused to work with my new PC....saved up for a new monitor 3 weeks or so ago...so yeah around 3 years of not using my rig!), I'm not sure if I got the hards into the window so to speak, any info on optimum temp for those tyres?

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I think at least some 75C. I believe someone said in Reiza's forum that hards have been found to have issues so right now I would remain on softs...

If you want to put a noob off sim racing then get them to try out the Super V8s. They are a bit of a handful and I find the old F1 cars easier to drive, even the old turbo era ones. They are rewarding to drive though.

Ashavan said:

I'm loving most of these cars, but I was trying the GT4's and I didn't think the Cayman felt so great. The McLaren 570 feels feels awesome though. Is there something wrong with the Cayman, or is it just how its meant to feel? I'm not getting that gritty tire feedback sensation that I now get with the other vastly improved cars on the list above.

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I like the Cayman more than the RRE version. For me the BMW GT4 and particularly GT3 are far too twitchy - the steering is much more direct than other same class siblings and it has always been like that.

The Super V8 is indeed a handful and still needs some work but overall these newer tyred cars are another step forward.

Now it's time to give the MINI Cooper some love so we can get started with season 12 of the Virtual MINI Challenge please

davehenrie said:

updated: means a gradual progression from the previous tire. Since they make no other mention of other physics changes, one would assume the updated tire model is......an updated tire model.

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"Updated tire model" doesn't necessarily mean "updated tire model". It depends how the term "tyre model" is defined. Usually, a tyre model is defined as the very tyre model the game runs on, ie. the tyre part of the physics engine. For example, a modder for a game (eg. RF1, AC, RF2 etc.) may release a car and then in a later update may have made changes to the design of the car's tyres. To me, that's not an updated "tyre model". It's an updated tyre - the design of that car's particular tyre, a "content update". That's completely different to changes of the game's tyre model - the physics engine of the tyre (which a modder could never even do to begin with unless they have unencrypted access to the physics engine in the EXE's coding).

MadDriver11 said:

In Madness Engine the SETA tire model is made of 3 sub-models: the tire carcass model, the thread model and the thermal model. Different classes of cars have different parameters of the above. In the case of these latest updates the carcass model has been modified to stiffer parameters for several classes of cars.

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Right, so the model itself hasn't changed, just the parameters entered into the model have changed. Basically, some cars have received updates/changes to the design/creation of their particular tyres. In other words, it's no different to, let's say, a tyre on an F1 car in the game and a tyre from an F3 car in the exact same game. They all, if course, run on the exact same identical tyre "model" - essentially the tyre aspect of the core physics engine - but just with tons of different #s punched into different parameters in order to create a different tyre . So basically this update - as seems to be common in recent years in the racing sim industry - is a little deceiving when they say "tyre model updates". The tyre model has not been updated, but rather there has been "content updates" in the form of updated tyres (ie. tyre "designs") for certain cars.

MadDriver11 said:

Physics engine is always Madness Engine so not sure how one could consider changing that and not sure what you would call core tire model as opposed to tires updates.

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You just answered your own question Core tyre model is the tyre model itself. The programming/coding of the tyre model that every car runs on. A tyre update for a particular car, on the other hand, is just essentially creating a new tyre for that car - like how a modder for a game can come out with a tyre-update for one of his mod-cars.

One is dealing with the actual coding/programming inside the game's EXE of the tyre model (or other aspects of the core physics engine if dealing with other parts of the car) while the other is just dealing with changing numbers in certain parameters to create a new design of a tyre (or suspension, ICE, aero, etc.) like any modder can (in a game that allows modding).

Imagine you had Mario Kart for Super Nintendo. You can spend your whole life punching different numbers into the parameters to create a new tyre design. You're not going to be able to make the tyres drive like another game (let's say AMS2 just for example). Now image though that you had access to the Maro Kart's coding/programming and had complete freedom to alter or replace the coding itself of the tyres - ie. the "tyre model" itself - you could theoretically make a tyre model that behaves more realistically & natural than any sim today if the programmer is capable.

In short, think of the tyre model as the "tyre physics engine" and think of the design of each individual cars' tyres (within the same game) as content updates but not fundamental updates to any aspect of the game's engine. 2 completely different things.

MadDriver11 said:

Physics engine is always Madness Engine

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I could be wrong but I thought Reiza had the rights to edit the Madness Engine? I thought they made core-coding/programming changes to some aspects of the tyre model as well as FFB? If Reiza don't have the rights to that then we're literally all just playing a mod for Project Cars (or PC2 or whichever version of the Madness engine Reiza received) - and an absolutely incredible one at that......but I'm pretty sure I've read of Reiza, over the years, making coding-changes (not just punching in different #s to certain available parameters, ie. modding) to AMS2.

Spinelli said:

I could be wrong but I thought Reiza had the rights to edit the Madness Engine? I thought they made core-coding/programming changes to some aspects of the tyre model as well as FFB? If Reiza don't have the rights to that then we're literally all just playing a mod for Project Cars (or PC2 or whichever version of the Madness engine Reiza received) - and an absolutely incredible one at that......but I'm pretty sure I've read of Reiza, over the years, making coding-changes (not just punching in different #s to certain available parameters, ie. modding) to AMS2.

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Tyre models in the Seta framework are built from a physical simulation of the tyre tread and carcass composition and then used to generate the actual tyre model for each car:


I don't know how much Reiza actually have modified the underlying tyre physics equations, with likelihood they have because there was been work done on tyre heat sensitivity and low-speed tyre damping. And AFAIK every cars in the Madness Engine is built up from "components", which are small models for specific parts of car with tunable parameters. The differential components of PC2 have been replaced with better ones and they imported the turbo/throttle response model from AMS1 IIRC. The suspension/steering rack models I believe remain the same as in PC2 (and originate from isiMotor).

Spinelli said:

"Updated tire model" doesn't necessarily mean "updated tire model". It depends how the term "tyre model" is defined. Usually, a tyre model is defined as the very tyre model the game runs on, ie. the tyre part of the physics engine. For example, a modder for a game (eg. RF1, AC, RF2 etc.) may release a car and then in a later update may have made changes to the design of the car's tyres. To me, that's not an updated "tyre model". It's an updated tyre - the design of that car's particular tyre, a "content update". That's completely different to changes of the game's tyre model - the physics engine of the tyre (which a modder could never even do to begin with unless they have unencrypted access to the physics engine in the EXE's coding).

Right, so the model itself hasn't changed, just the parameters entered into the model have changed. Basically, some cars have received updates/changes to the design/creation of their particular tyres. In other words, it's no different to, let's say, a tyre on an F1 car in the game and a tyre from an F3 car in the exact same game. They all, if course, run on the exact same identical tyre "model" - essentially the tyre aspect of the core physics engine - but just with tons of different #s punched into different parameters in order to create a different tyre . So basically this update - as seems to be common in recent years in the racing sim industry - is a little deceiving when they say "tyre model updates". The tyre model has not been updated, but rather there has been "content updates" in the form of updated tyres (ie. tyre "designs") for certain cars.

You just answered your own question Core tyre model is the tyre model itself. The programming/coding of the tyre model that every car runs on. A tyre update for a particular car, on the other hand, is just essentially creating a new tyre for that car - like how a modder for a game can come out with a tyre-update for one of his mod-cars.

One is dealing with the actual coding/programming inside the game's EXE of the tyre model (or other aspects of the core physics engine if dealing with other parts of the car) while the other is just dealing with changing numbers in certain parameters to create a new design of a tyre (or suspension, ICE, aero, etc.) like any modder can (in a game that allows modding).

Imagine you had Mario Kart for Super Nintendo. You can spend your whole life punching different numbers into the parameters to create a new tyre design. You're not going to be able to make the tyres drive like another game (let's say AMS2 just for example). Now image though that you had access to the Maro Kart's coding/programming and had complete freedom to alter or replace the coding itself of the tyres - ie. the "tyre model" itself - you could theoretically make a tyre model that behaves more realistically & natural than any sim today if the programmer is capable.

In short, think of the tyre model as the "tyre physics engine" and think of the design of each individual cars' tyres (within the same game) as content updates but not fundamental updates to any aspect of the game's engine. 2 completely different things.


I could be wrong but I thought Reiza had the rights to edit the Madness Engine? I thought they made core-coding/programming changes to some aspects of the tyre model as well as FFB? If Reiza don't have the rights to that then we're literally all just playing a mod for Project Cars (or PC2 or whichever version of the Madness engine Reiza received) - and an absolutely incredible one at that......but I'm pretty sure I've read of Reiza, over the years, making coding-changes (not just punching in different #s to certain available parameters, ie. modding) to AMS2.

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Reiza has confirmed access to the full code. They modify the physics engine as they see fit as they have already done in several aspects.
Regarding the actual maths model of tire, since this is what your are discussing about they are still using the SETA model which is at the base of Madness Engine 2.0 since the beginning.
Sure you have a point in the fact that in the sim community users, developers and reporters use "new tire model" to mean that new tires designs are implemented while not changing the equations that are behind it, but it is the same for sims like RF2, iracing etc.
The only changes in "tire model" for the same sim I have seen is moving from x point of contact model to x+y points of contact for non-physical (paceika) tire models but someone could object that is not really a change in tire model since the maths/equations behind the additional points will not be any different in a similar fashion as you are doing.

Peppelino said:

Yes... Please Amanda.. Give it a test,
and come back with a verdict.
We would Love that..

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- TC improved a lot, I can set it to 2 and still be mildly aggressive on corner exit, same with most other sims;
- ABS still behaves badly. Just to show how bad it is, you still need it on 7-10 in order to not lock the brakes at medium/high speed corners and brake bias to >64. The interesting thing? If you disable ABS you can brake a LOT later and the wheels won't lock. Complete bonkers how ABS works in AMS2;
- Seems the car engine is still grabbing the rear wheels when trail braking, causing me to spin. This behavior I could only find in PCars2 and AMS2, which funnily share the same engine. I believe it's either that or the tires just lose grip in slow speeds and medium lateral loads;

Amanda said:

- TC improved a lot, I can set it to 2 and still be mildly aggressive on corner exit, same with most other sims;
- ABS still behaves badly. Just to show how bad it is, you still need it on 7-10 in order to not lock the brakes at medium/high speed corners and brake bias to >64. The interesting thing? If you disable ABS you can brake a LOT later and the wheels won't lock. Complete bonkers how ABS works in AMS2;
- Seems the car engine is still grabbing the rear wheels when trail braking, causing me to spin. This behavior I could only find in PCars2 and AMS2, which funnily share the same engine. I believe it's either that or the tires just lose grip in slow speeds and medium lateral loads;
- Snarky comments from adults that can't discuss flaws in their toys are still a thing ;-)

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Thank you a lot, for your findings in
the game.

Amanda said:

- ABS still behaves badly. Just to show how bad it is, you still need it on 7-10 in order to not lock the brakes at medium/high speed corners and brake bias to >64. The interesting thing? If you disable ABS you can brake a LOT later and the wheels won't lock. Complete bonkers how ABS works in AMS2;

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Glad it's not only me that always found AMS2's ABS strange. I never did any serious testing but I've locked the tires on the default 8 a lot of times. To a point I started to brake with ABS cars as I'd have done in cars without it.

Amanda said:

- Seems the car engine is still grabbing the rear wheels when trail braking, causing me to spin. This behavior I could only find in PCars2 and AMS2, which funnily share the same engine. I believe it's either that or the tires just lose grip in slow speeds and medium lateral loads;

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You can reduce the engine braking setting in the third tab of the garage if that is the case. Increasing the value means less engine braking.
Also downshifting less aggressively than some other sims is required in AMS2 and 1st gear is a no unless you are going through a very slow corner.
And finally bringing the rear rebound dampers down, potentially even a couple of clicks below their respective bump dampers actually make the rear much more enjoyable.

MadDriver11 said:

You can reduce the engine braking setting in the third tab of the garage if that is the case. Increasing the value means less engine braking.

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Thank you but I tried that already without avail.

MadDriver11 said:

Also downshifting less aggressively than some other sims is required in AMS2 and 1st gear is a no unless you are going through a very slow corner.

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The symptom happens in 2nd/3rd gear. If you turn in while braking the car will spin near where the car from the image below is. I've only experienced this in Project Cars 2 and AMS2. I can record a video this weekend if you want.

If you're still braking at the car below's position, you'll spin.

MadDriver11 said:

And finally bringing the rear rebound dampers down, potentially even a couple of clicks below their respective bump dampers actually make the rear much more enjoyable.

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Also tried that. No dice.

From what it feels, I think it could be something to do with the diff, because the RPMs go down when the slid happens. It's like something is grabbing my back wheels and I don't know what it is.

Amanda said:

Thank you but I tried that already without avail.


The symptom happens in 2nd/3rd gear. If you turn in while braking the car will spin near where the car from the image below is. I've only experienced this in Project Cars 2 and AMS2. I can record a video this weekend if you want.

If you're still braking at the car below's position, you'll spin.
View attachment 566603


Also tried that. No dice.

From what it feels, I think it could be something to do with the diff, because the RPMs go down when the slid happens. It's like something is grabbing my back wheels and I don't know what it is.

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Is this wrong? To me that sounds about right, if you try to enter a corner too hard, you will upset the rear at some point.