List of Automobilista 2 Cars with Updated Tire Model

Richard Wilks said:

Is this wrong? To me that sounds about right, if you try to enter a corner too hard, you will upset the rear at some point.

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I'm not overcooking the corners, trust me. I can be pretty aggressive with.... well, literally every other sim, rFactor 1 and all it's children (which means AMS1 too, which is my favorite sim), rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa, ACC... and not spin on corner entry in any of them. But if I drive in PCars2/AMS2 how I drive in literally every other sim, I'll spin.

Here's an example. Watch this video's very first corner. Notice how he's literally trail braking with 100% brake pressure until the front of his car gets to the curb, and he's still braking pretty much until to the apex? I cannot do that in AMS2 or I'll spin. In every other sim? It works.

Another thing I noticed is that I need to brake much later than the real cars. See this corner (already at the proper timestamp), the guy brakes at around 70m there. If I do that in AMS2 I'll overshoot the corner.
Also right here he's braking until apex. Same as before, I can't do that.

I thought it could be me getting to the apex with too much brake applied, but I'm applying the same pressure as on other sims.
I'll record some videos this weekend and compare how I brake on AMS2 to ACC.

Richard Wilks said:

Is this wrong? To me that sounds about right, if you try to enter a corner too hard, you will upset the rear at some point.

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OK, I finally got it in video. I had a recording from an earlier session I did.

First is me losing my rear before the apex. Notice I tried an aggressive (but realistic) trail braking just as the first link on my other comment. I was just starting to release the brake when I lost the rear, which happened way before the apex.
Then is Jardier, doing pretty much the same thing (and the same thing I do on other simulators). He goes through the corner just fine, just as I do on all other sims.

VOLUME WARNING

Amanda said:

OK, I finally got it in video. I had a recording from an earlier session I did.

First is me losing my rear before the apex. Notice I tried an aggressive (but realistic) trail braking just as the first link on my other comment. I was just starting to release the brake when I lost the rear, which happened way before the apex.
Then is Jardier, doing pretty much the same thing (and the same thing I do on other simulators). He goes through the corner just fine, just as I do on all other sims.

VOLUME WARNING

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Admittedly I've run into the same issue at Rivazza, nevertheless you can see pretty clearly in the video that you are releasing the brakes very suddenly. You lock your fronts, then they regain grip after you jump out of the brakes. That's like yanking the steer, it has the same effect.

Amanda said:

OK, I finally got it in video. I had a recording from an earlier session I did.

First is me losing my rear before the apex. Notice I tried an aggressive (but realistic) trail braking just as the first link on my other comment. I was just starting to release the brake when I lost the rear, which happened way before the apex.
Then is Jardier, doing pretty much the same thing (and the same thing I do on other simulators). He goes through the corner just fine, just as I do on all other sims.

VOLUME WARNING

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Honestly, i dont see anything wrong with AMS2 here.

As critic as i am of many things AMS2, i have to say that in this video, AMS2 looks better than ACC there (Jardier is mega smooth though, so it might be on him). You should really not get away with a move so abrupt like that, specially in a front engined car, in a downhill corner like that.

The video you posted above of the real car around bathurst, i see the guy releasing the brakes a bit as soon as he turns in, and probably that telemetry has a bit of lag, so the guy most be releasing earlier than we see it.


How other sims work, is beside the point. I have been a massive critic of how braking is all sorts of wrong in most sim/content we drive, when you can just get away with murder with no consequence. WEight transfer forwards is the very thing that makes braking tricky, and late braking an art.

NobodyKnowsReally said:

Admittedly I've run into the same issue at Rivazza, nevertheless you can see pretty clearly in the video that you are releasing the brakes very suddenly. You lock your fronts, then they regain grip after you jump out of the brakes. That's like yanking the steer, it has the same effect.

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That's not an issue, trust me. Lock or no lock, it still happens. And releasing the brakes quickly is also not an issue, not only because I didn't release them quickly (if you watch the video, I was releasing them slowly until I lose control), and releasing the brakes would mean less weight being on the front which would mean a lesser changes of the rear snapping out. These cars are basically on rails IRL.

Richard Wilks said:

You should really not get away with a move so abrupt like that

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Except that everyone does it like that, real drivers in real cars, real drivers in sim racing cars, sim racers in literally every other sim other than PCars2/AMS2.

Richard Wilks said:

The video you posted above of the real car around bathurst, i see the guy releasing the brakes a bit as soon as he turns in

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Sorry, but you're clearly wrong. When he turns in he's already at 100% brake pressure and you can see his car turning left while he's with 100% brake pressure. He continues with 100% brake pressure until the front of the car is at the beginning of the curb, and he continues braking until apex.

I mean, that's trail braking 101 and it's pretty clear in the video.
And there's no lag. Notice his RPM rounter, it's fully in sync with the audio.

Amanda said:

Except that everyone does it like that, real drivers in real cars, real drivers in sim racing cars, sim racers in literally every other sim other than PCars2/AMS2.


Sorry, but you're clearly wrong. When he turns in he's already at 100% brake pressure and you can see his car turning left while he's with 100% brake pressure. He continues with 100% brake pressure until the front of the car is at the beginning of the curb, and he continues braking until apex.

I mean, that's trail braking 101 and it's pretty clear in the video.
And there's no lag. Notice his RPM rounter, it's fully in sync with the audio.

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Thats a very broad statement, including real drivers. I can summon some on demand that will say otherwise by the way.

As for the video:

https://i.ibb.co/ZKHCkKw/image.png


He is not fully on the brakes on the apex, that is for sure. He releases them progressively.

Amanda said:

The symptom happens in 2nd/3rd gear. If you turn in while braking the car will spin near where the car from the image below is. I've only experienced this in Project Cars 2 and AMS2. I can record a video this weekend if you want.

If you're still braking at the car below's position, you'll spin.

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Three things come to mind:
1- Rivazza is a very tricky type of corner: your car is very much unbalanced with very light rear due to the high slope. It is definitely the type of corner where trail braking hard should be very much not possible unless you move BB very much forward. On the same track with the same setup at Tosa you can often trail brake much harder at Tosa.
2- For more "normal" corners where slope is not that unfavorable, going down too early to 3rd-2nd gear is normally what triggers sudden rear loss for me once I have prepared to my liking the setup. The McLaren is especially known for that. Merc for instance much less.
3- Are you using baseline setup? Does it happen already at the first lap or later on, maybe with tires already hot? Did you check tire temps?

Richard Wilks said:

Is this wrong? To me that sounds about right, if you try to enter a corner too hard, you will upset the rear at some point.

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I tend to agree, especially when the corner is downward sloped

Richard Wilks said:

He is not fully on the brakes on the apex, that is for sure. He releases them progressively.

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But that's what I said.

"Notice how he's literally trail braking with 100% brake pressure until the front of his car gets to the curb, and he's still braking pretty much until to the apex?"

He's still at 100% when the front of his car is aligned with the start of the curb. [He starts releasing the brakes] and is still braking at pretty much the apex.

That's how the record holder does it. That's how real GT drivers do it in real cars and in simulators like ACC, iRacing, rFactor....

MadDriver11 said:

I tend to agree, especially when the corner is downward sloped

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That was just an example corner. It happens on flat corners as well. Let me record it.

I was using a custom setup with less engine braking, harder front springs and ARB, and with both low and high preload.

Amanda said:

OK, I finally got it in video. I had a recording from an earlier session I did.

First is me losing my rear before the apex. Notice I tried an aggressive (but realistic) trail braking just as the first link on my other comment. I was just starting to release the brake when I lost the rear, which happened way before the apex.
Then is Jardier, doing pretty much the same thing (and the same thing I do on other simulators). He goes through the corner just fine, just as I do on all other sims.

VOLUME WARNING

Click to expand...

In the video you are braking almost 100% to the apex. Braking far too much for Rivazza. That is why you spin.
In the video from Bathurst, there is clearly a bit of delay in the inputs, even with that at T1 he is off the brakes far earlier than the apex and we are talking about a real "sudden" 90 degrees turn with no slope, much more favorable than Rivazza anyway

ACC is actually the sim where trail braking smashing the pedal is the most unrealistic together with being to most lenient on downshifting (you can see that Jardier goes down to 1st gear before the corner which is nuts compared to real life). A similar comment was made by Daniel Morad who said IRL you can't smash the brakes all the way to the apex that way.

As for iracing in my experience you can't smash the brakes even in a straight line. Even fast racers in iracing rarely go over 65-75% brake input and only at T1 at Monza or places like that. Otherwise it's below. In iracing due to the tire model you keep a bit more than usual trail braking because there is little lateral grip on the front and you are forced to use the brakes (often with very unrealistically rear bias like even 48% front on LMP2s or 50% on Ferraris) as a rudder to have the car rotate.

Amanda said:

Thank you but I tried that already without avail.


The symptom happens in 2nd/3rd gear. If you turn in while braking the car will spin near where the car from the image below is. I've only experienced this in Project Cars 2 and AMS2. I can record a video this weekend if you want.

If you're still braking at the car below's position, you'll spin.
View attachment 566603


Also tried that. No dice.

From what it feels, I think it could be something to do with the diff, because the RPMs go down when the slid happens. It's like something is grabbing my back wheels and I don't know what it is.

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Totally agree. This happens is a few cars. You brake heavy, then begin trail braking as you turn in and it seems like every time you are almost at the apex and at the lightest amount of braking (as you are trailing off the brake), the rear just steps out.

Lefthook said:

Totally agree. This happens is a few cars. You brake heavy, then begin trail braking as you turn in and it seems like every time you are almost at the apex and at the lightest amount of braking (as you are trailing off the brake), the rear just steps out.

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This is almost full braking power not trail braking... You should be down to 10-30% braking power once you are giving that significant steering input especially when you are in a downward slope and you rear is very light because of that. Steering is already at 45 degrees.
You can compare the braking power bar from the Bathurst real life SS, where trail braking is a much smaller percentage of bar (less than 30%), while in the AMS2 screen the bar is probably 75-80% maybe more...

ThomasGreece said:

If they focus more on the technical aspects the sim will be the best ever by the end of the year...

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This is already the best one! ;-)

So I did some testing yesterday but was too tired to post, so I'm posting today.
Below is the video I made.

Some findings I think are correct:
- Clearly AMS2 has a problem with trail-braking, as evidenced by 0:08 and 2:29-2:51 in the video. An understeery and race-prepared Mercedes shouldn't lose the rear on such a low-speed corner with a bit of braking (0:08) and also on the other corners;
- The steering inputs in AMS2 seem exaggerated, meaning I need less wheel input to turn, compared to all other sims (heck, I even struggled to keep the SuperV8 car in a straight line, it's ridiculous and so contraire to AMS1 SV8). However, as I'll demonstrate on another video, this shouldn't make the car lose it's rear;
- You can see in some of the videos that I purposefully press on the brake in order to try and make the car oversteer, e.g. 0:23-0:24 and 1:35. Still, not possible in ACC;
- It's clear to me that AMS2 is less powerful on the brakes than other sims, which is the reason I need to brake at 100m instead of 75m in that Imola corner I showed earlier. This could be because a number of reasons, AMS2's buggy ABS or the 90% default braking power. I'll include all that on my next (and more scientific) video. This could mean that I'm entering the corners a bit hotter than usual - still, as I'll demonstrate, this is an understeery car and it's ridiculous to think that it would just lose it's rear like it does in this game;

I still don't see the point of comparing it to ACC.

ACC is renowned for being the "trail brake simulator" at this point, and its almost impossible to lose the car on the brakes there, something that is not realistic at all.

In all those videos i see of you spinning ,you are asking clearly more than what the car can give. This is correct behaviour. If laptimes are aligned with reality, then we would need 1:1 telemetry with reality to see if those are aligned as well. But from what i see in those videos, there is nothing wrong with AMS2, as opposed to ACC.

ABS can be a factor there too, but i dont think whats happening is the rears locking, i think its just a matter of too much weight transfer too hard.

Amanda said:

That's not an issue, trust me. Lock or no lock, it still happens. And releasing the brakes quickly is also not an issue, not only because I didn't release them quickly (if you watch the video, I was releasing them slowly until I lose control), and releasing the brakes would mean less weight being on the front which would mean a lesser changes of the rear snapping out. These cars are basically on rails IRL.

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You can get oversteer by either losing the rear or by over-rotating the car. If your fronts are at the limit by trail braking, when you release the brakes you unlock steering ability, and that can appear unexpected, especially if you do that abrutply (I did watch the video... if you think that's smooth, watch again).
It also doesn't help that Rivazza 1 is downhill which means the fronts are even more loaded, and that gives you more, unexpected, yaw moment inducing capabilty.
It's always the sim fault isn't it?

PS Looking at the new video, it is clear that this is another case of "I play this sim regularly, so I expect to be the same in the new sim, because the sim I invested so much time in is the best sim"
The 1:1 relationship with the real world is a myth. Use some critical thinking. Maybe it's the setup. Maybe tires are different (compound and data, let alone physics model). Judge and solve your problem with data.

At the end of the day, there's no convincing the "aficionados" that their product has a defect and most of the times all effort is wasted. I noticed this mostly in the "nerdy tech world" but it happens everywhere where there's someone emotionally attached to something. Whenever I show clear problems with a product, the fans have a hard time admitting to it. And I'm not saying I'm right 100% of the times (or even half of that, or any % of times), but at least I'm glad that quite a lot of the problems I point out get fixed, like how I've commented on how rF2 players exploit(ed) overrevving their engines under braking in order to brake a lot later than they should - a lot of the fans obviously dismissed the problem with the same blablabla as always, but at the end of the day S397 fixed the problem by introducing downshift protection, something me and other players have been asking for many years and is 100% realistic.

This time I did a more scientific test with with more sims.

Now, onto the video. The sims in question:
- AMS2;
- ACC;
- rFactor 2
- AMS1 (3 different cars)

In the following test, I'll start at the Spa Francorchamps sign (0:03) at 200 Km/h and accelerate going into the kemmel straight, and brake 100% at the 200 m sign and point the wheel to the right.
NOTE: I couldn't get a pedal info HUD on rFactor 2, but I was braking 100% just as the other sims.

All GT3 cars tested have the same brake pressure and brake bias.
As you'll be able to see, every other sim simulates aggressive trail braking perfectly. Even AMS1, which is based off of rFactor 1, does this perfectly - and it being based on rF1 isn't a problem since rFactor 1 has been demonstrated to be +99% accurate. And guess what, aggressive trail braking works as intended there too and in all it's children as well.

I would've included more simulators, like Raceroom, Race07/GTR2, Assetto Corsa, BeamNG, Copa Petrobras de Marcas, but my time to test this and to edit the videos (as well as my HDD space) is limited.
But anyone who has those sims can attest to the fact that you can drive like a real driver in them ;-)


In the end, all I can do is throw my arms in the air and say "I tried". My goal here is not to try and convince 2 people that aggressive trail braking is a thing in real life and it's a problem in AMS2. My hope is that the issue gets to the developer's attention and that they at least investigate it. If they decide to fix it, great - if not, then it's OK too and at least I tried making the sim a little better than it already is - seriously, if not for this problem (which doesn't exist anywhere else than PC2/AMS2), AMS2 would be my go-to sim.

Richard Wilks said:

Honestly, i dont see anything wrong with AMS2 here.

As critic as i am of many things AMS2, i have to say that in this video, AMS2 looks better than ACC there (Jardier is mega smooth though, so it might be on him). You should really not get away with a move so abrupt like that, specially in a front engined car, in a downhill corner like that.

The video you posted above of the real car around bathurst, i see the guy releasing the brakes a bit as soon as he turns in, and probably that telemetry has a bit of lag, so the guy most be releasing earlier than we see it.


How other sims work, is beside the point. I have been a massive critic of how braking is all sorts of wrong in most sim/content we drive, when you can just get away with murder with no consequence. WEight transfer forwards is the very thing that makes braking tricky, and late braking an art.

Click to expand...

Usually real life driver complains of how some sims are unrealistically twitchy compare to irl (at least on a dry track), and how in reality you can get away with murder and "attack the car" way more.

You can hear them comparing laps and some general comparison here and here