PC1 Pcars: A community divided

[Nathan Robinson]

Continuation of Part 1: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/banned-for-no-reason.47384/

Its hard to believe a game has taken a community over like this. Now with legal proceedings, its kind of become a joke for simmers. I have been at this a while now and have never seen a game invoke so much negative and positive reaction. May the discussions continue


Ps. While i continue to support pcars, i respect RD for allowing the freedom of expression to all its members.

 

[David Dominguez]

We'll operate our forum as we see fit thanks. It's fine for 99.95% of members.

Of course sir.

But that guy was banned for no reason. First because it's the forum message he got, second because your reasons are incredibly weak to justify a ban.

 

[Ian Bell]

A lot of that vitriol came from Micas though, or in response to him. So Ian, can we see some light at the end of the tunnel here? No more threats? You know it would be wise to accept the situation as is now.

regards
Andy

Micas is not SMS and doesn't speak for us, nor I for him. I've said this before but it needs repeating.

I'd love to see some light at the end of the tunnel. But I'm busy defending myself from the staff here

 

[Andy_J]

Maybe I should have a WMD poll to ask if I should go further.

Actually Ian, that might be a good idea.

 

[Tom]

We've lost 2 members thus far as a result. We're coping. The general attitude of the staff here is frankly unacceptable. As I said before, I'm here to right wrongs. If the staff don't want to help then I'm disappointed.

Bram's post was premature. I said we'd sent some things off to our lawyers, we've yet to decide if we take it further. My wish is that there's some hint of concession and we can move forward in peace. I've given RD 10 free memberships just today. A fair olive branch I think.

Some of the stuff in that thread that you call 'discussing pCARS' was terrible vitriolic abuse both personal and otherwise. This was unmoderated for months. It's now gotten some moderation which we appreciate.

Ian,

Losing 2 people because of your statements means that you, personally, caused damage to your company and your project. Not by doing a bad job when it comes to game design but because you're trying to censor a fansite. That's the point.

I can sincerely understand that you want things to be corrected if you deem them to be wrong. However, you didn't provide proof they were wrong and we were thus unable to do so - that's the principle when it comes to freedom of speech and I believe you would concur that nobody can change stuff on the internet on request just because someone else says it's wrong. I also don't see how it makes sense to give 10 free pCARS memberships to us whilst trying to sue us at the same time.

What happened today is that some people dug up stuff that is disproving your statements regarding banned people on WMD. How are people supposed to believe your word of honour now? About the moderation, and I'll quote you on that:

We'll operate our forum as we see fit thanks. It's fine for 99.95% of members.

Honestly, I'm not attacking you. I'm actually very neutral in this case but I don't understand why you apparently don't understand why people are having problems to believe you.

 

[Ian Bell]

Of course sir.

But that guy was banned for no reason. First because it's the forum message he got, second because your reasons are incredibly weak to justify a ban.

Again, my moderators are telling me he's still there and posting. I'm passing that message on. The forum message is automated.

We don't ban people for no reason. If they can follow our posting rules we wouldn't dream of losing income.

 

[Andy_J]

Micas is not SMS and doesn't speak for us, nor I for him. I've said this before but it needs repeating.

I'd love to see some light at the end of the tunnel. But I'm busy defending myself from the staff here

Good, but Micas did take on sort of an unofficial ambassador of WMD. Like it or not. A rude person.

 

[Ian Bell]

Ian,

Losing 2 people because of your statements means that you, personally, caused damage to your company and your project. Not by doing a bad job when it comes to game design but because you're trying to censor a fansite. That's the point.

I can sincerely understand that you want things to be corrected if you deem them to be wrong. However, you didn't provide proof they were wrong and we were thus unable to do so - that's the principle when it comes to freedom of speech and I believe you would concur that nobody can change stuff on the internet on request just because someone else says it's wrong.

What happened today is that some people dug up stuff that is disproving your statements regarding banned people on WMD. How are people supposed to believe your word of honour now? About the moderation, and I'll quote you on that:



Honestly, I'm not attacking you. I'm actually very neutral in this case but I don't understand why you apparently don't understand why people are having problems to believe you.

Last time, I'm not trying to censor a fan site, I am trying to get false statements corrected. That and unacceptably abusive posts. The posts have been corrected for the most part since the threat. It's just a shame it had to reach that point.

I've already cut and pasted our moderator forum post on this. I'm told that this user is still with us and posting. WIth 73000 members I have to follow the information I'm told. If you choose not to believe me or think I've lost honour by passing it on then so be it.

 

[wip3]

The guy who posted that video that was quoted is a member here i'm sure.

Oh I am now! I'm happy to see that Ian hasn't change his way to handle disagreement or to ignore proof.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Can you see that saying that when we are discussing PM's and posts could give people the wrong impression? Not to mention your role as an administrator here.

I'm a simracer... being administrator here just means a lot of my free time spend on fixing things and trying to provide a place for simracers.

I'm just trying to explain you why I find morally unaceptable to censor people without an objective reason, you talk about it like if I was the boss of a super company or something like that...

This is my last post here Ian, I'm so tired and I have a lot of work to do because all the time I lost in this thread.

 

[David Dominguez]

Again, my moderators are telling me he's still there and posting. I'm passing that message on. The forum message is automated.

We don't ban people for no reason. If they can follow our posting rules we wouldn't dream of losing income.

I am talking about chunder27.

By the way. posting rules allows members to laugh at some other members, and make jokes against them, just because of having different opinons?

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Ian. You have repeatedly used the words legal action, attorney, lawyers etc etc in various posts here on the forums and in a private message that you have started with Xose and me.

I am a strong believer that private messages should be private at all times otherwise they can be better discussed here in public but if you are okay with it I would love to post your entire PM discussion with us. As I have nothing to hide or loose and stand for every word I have said here on the forums and in PM conversations. I am all up for it, are you?

Then people can read themselves about your "going legal routes", "documents on their way to our lawyers", "legal dangerous statements" etc and then this discussion can be ended here once and for all as we have offered you many times via the forums and PM to report any false statements and submit some proof so we can actually check the facts and not the opinions of people before we moderate anything but you simply refuse to comply.

After your last "I am going the legal route" I locked the banned thread and you have asked for my details in more than one occasion to send me the documents.

You are making absurd claims now that our staff is anti-pcars. What do you expect from people, that they openly declare their love to you and your henchman MicasWMD, who is treatening members via private messages with lawsuits being organized and how serious you are? As a psychologist you should know that things don't work like that.

You have decided to play the angst and terror card on us. Why continuing to make claims, assumptions and threats to sue us for libel as you have obviously chosen to "go the legal route" already?

As I asked please submit all legal claims in Dutch as well so as an ex-law-student myself I can do my own defense as I don't have the money for a fancy lawyer to fight a million euro company.

This is the last post I make about this stupid dispute as it went way way way over the top and I have other things to take care of as well.

 

[Tom]

Last time, I'm not trying to censor a fan site, I am trying to get false statements corrected. That and unacceptably abusive posts. The posts have been corrected for the most part since the threat. It's just a shame it had to reach that point.

I've already cut and pasted our moderator forum post on this. I'm told that this user is still with us and posting. WIth 73000 members I have to follow the information I'm told. If you choose not to believe me or think I've lost honour by passing it on then so be it.

It's not about losing honour - it's about people having proven that you weren't telling the truth. It doesn't matter if you did so in good faith or not. If a random person on the internet can find all this out, shouldn't you as head of the game studio that runs the project be able to make sure you're giving out correct information as well?

You're giving people on here a hard time to believe you, that's what I'm worried about. Yes, worried.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Last time, I'm not trying to censor a fan site, I am trying to get false statements corrected. That and unacceptably abusive posts. The posts have been corrected for the most part since the threat. It's just a shame it had to reach that point.

We always moderated this thread, and before or after the threat we never modified anything that was ok with our ToS.

But glad you are satisfied with our moderation

P.S.- And this is really my last post here

 

[Ian Bell]

I am talking about chunder27.

By the way. posting rules allows members to laugh at some other members, and make jokes against them, just because of having different opinons?

Chunder27=BSnismo=Lee Ross here right? Ask him why he is no longer with us.

 

[Ian Bell]

It's not about losing honour - it's about people having proven that you weren't telling the truth. It doesn't matter if you did so in good faith or not. If a random person on the internet can find all this out, shouldn't you as head of the game studio that runs the project be able to make sure you're giving out correct information as well?

You're giving people on here a hard time to believe you, that's what I'm worried about. Yes, worried.

Excuse me, don't accuse me of lies. I haven't posted any. I'm STILL told that member as posted in the first picture as being removed is still with us.

 

[David Dominguez]

I have no clue about that, sorry. For what I've read chunder27 is the guy who opened the thread "Banned for no reason" here.

 

[Lee Ross]

Chunder27=BSnismo=Lee Ross here right? Ask him why he is no longer with us.

Don't know who Chunder is but yes i am BSNismo and do you know something i don't? I left because frankly the the game was crap, simple.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I have no clue about that, sorry. For what I've read chunder27 is the guy who opened the thread "Banned for no reason" here.

Chunder is Rob Every......Nismo is Lee Ross.
Sorry, I've got a good memory for my favourite soapie, lol.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I left because frankly the the game was crap, simple.

It's moreso that it's simcade, I'm not sure calling it crap makes sense unless you specifically mention it in sim terms.
Depending on how it turns out and depending on one's POV, this could easily be one of the best racing games, but could also be one of the worst sims....

 

[Ian Bell]

Ian. You have repeatedly used the words legal action, attorney, lawyers etc etc in various posts here on the forums and in a private message that you have started with Xose and me.

I am a strong believer that private messages should be private at all times otherwise they can be better discussed here in public but if you are okay with it I would love to post your entire PM discussion with us. As I have nothing to hide or loose and stand for every word I have said here on the forums and in PM conversations. I am all up for it, are you?

Then people can read themselves about your "going legal routes", "documents on their way to our lawyers", "legal dangerous statements" etc and then this discussion can be ended here once and for all as we have offered you many times via the forums and PM to report any false statements and submit some proof so we can actually check the facts and not the opinions of people before we moderate anything but you simply refuse to comply.

After your last "I am going the legal route" I locked the banned thread and you have asked for my details in more than one occasion to send me the documents.

You are making absurd claims now that our staff is anti-pcars. What do you expect from people, that they openly declare their love to you and your henchman MicasWMD, who is treatening members via private messages with lawsuits being organized and how serious you are? As a psychologist you should know that things don't work like that.

You have decided to play the angst and terror card on us. Why continuing to make claims, assumptions and threats to sue us for libel as you have obviously chosen to "go the legal route" already?

As I asked please submit all legal claims in Dutch as well so as an ex-law-student myself I can do my own defense as I don't have the money for a fancy lawyer to fight a million euro company.

This is the last post I make about this stupid dispute as it went way way way over the top and I have other things to take care of as well.

So wrong in so many areas. Please do post the full PM thread if you want to. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I tried to reach out and was thwarted, simple as that. You've been openly hostile from the off.

Micas is not my henchman, I resent the allegation and have openly refuted it in this and other threads on multiple occasions.

As I said in the PM's it's very hard for me to prove I'm not a thief, liar, conman, nazi etc etc. I did though prove that the title of the banned thread was false. But you've refused to amend it.

Given the above, given your general attitude here despite me trying to make contact to talk directly, despite me offering RD members free access to pCARS I can only assume there is some agenda. And yes, the fact you are listed as working for SimBin on your resume made me wonder if there was not an anti pCARs agenda here. Certainly I've never read anything like the level of vitriol on any other site about us.

I'm not threatening any members here. Never have done. As I say, I'm offering them free memberships.