PC1 Pcars: A community divided

Continuation of Part 1: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/banned-for-no-reason.47384/

Its hard to believe a game has taken a community over like this. Now with legal proceedings, its kind of become a joke for simmers. I have been at this a while now and have never seen a game invoke so much negative and positive reaction. May the discussions continue :)


Ps. While i continue to support pcars, i respect RD for allowing the freedom of expression to all its members.
 
A few months back, there was very little FFB detail in the FA for ex, but lately it does seemto have a bit more unless I'm imagining it, so to me at least , it drives better.

Be glad. My T500 F1 wheel had too much FFB and moved all over the place on it's own - even when the car didn't even move. But well, it's not widely used so I understand it's having trouble. I guess FFB will be tackled once the physics etc. model has been finalized. :)
 
@Klazerman
I think we both can agree on my words just being a metaphor. But if you really wanna know, I would first take their tooth fillings. ;) Remember I´m German.

With the general tone here at the RD forums (pCARS subforum at least) it is sometimes hard to know what is written as a joke or not. But I had a hunch your phrasing was extreme because you really wanted to make a point. There are a small group of very angry people and the hostility seems to be spiraling into pure hatred.

I was looking forward to becoming a member of the Sim Race community after the developeme of pCARS and participate in races and perhaps find myself a newfound hobbie but now im a bit lost. Some of you seam like nice guys but seriously the vocal majority just seems like they want to find the next thing to hate upon.
 
David? You had a free pass or something? :confused::D


LOL, I just tell the truth to the best of my ability.
I don't care whether you guys are 100% sim and nothing else, but where do you rate games like Dirt2 and 3 for example, neither are sims, but they still operate well with a wheel and in the case of Dirt2, drove decently enough.

Personally, I consider a game like F1 2011 as crap as it didn't operate properly with my wheel, but maybe it's okay for gamepad users[not sure].

This is what I mean about a good game at the core level, and if we're talking racing games, surely to hell it must operate properly with popular steering wheels in this day and age.....you can get them for $75-$200 now!!
 
Be glad. My T500 F1 wheel had too much FFB and moved all over the place on it's own - even when the car didn't even move. But well, it's not widely used so I understand it's having trouble. I guess FFB will be tackled once the physics etc. model has been finalized. :)

This is the plan yes. In fact it should be a doddle once we sort the new tyre model. We feel this is the only area letting us down at the moment (given the concensus of the sim community) so this is what we're tackling first. AJ our tyre specialist is convinced (and has convinced me) that he can raise the bar here. His thread at WMD makes for great reading and fills me with confidence as to his abilities.

In short, we should be where Kunos is in that the FFB will fall out of the improved tyre model and feel much better without much additional tweaking needed. Netcar was always our aim here and if AJ delivers I think we can match or possibly, improve on it.

The tread code is now in and being tested internally. Once the rest of the model is complete we'll plug that in and we can go live. I suspect a month or two.
 
LOL, I just tell the truth to the best of my ability.
I don't care whether you guys are 100% sim and nothing else, but where do you rate games like Dirt2 and 3 for example, neither are sims, but they still operate well with a wheel and in the case of Dirt2, drove decently enough.

Personally, I consider a game like F1 2011 as crap as it didn't operate properly with my wheel, but maybe it's okay for gamepad users[not sure].

This is what I mean about a good game at the core level, and if we're talking racing games, surely to hell it must operate properly with popular steering wheels in this day and age.....you can get them for $75-$200 now!!
Well David F1 2011 works very good with my G27 also Race07, GSC but also nfs mostwanted .I don't get your point here.
 
Honestly, I feel you're snowballing something that is really a non-issue.

Ian (and rest of SMS staff), as disheartening as it is to see someone bashing you and using baseless claims as the reason for it, you might be doing yourselves an even bigger disservice by requesting things like moderation on a thread on a fansite. I mean, yes, the thread appeared on other sites. Big. deal.
Seriously, it has as much relevance as you want to give it, even if it hits the New York Times headlines, as long as the part being accused here (you) can defend itself through the proper channels if it even gets THAT far (PR) there's no loss.

pCars has a large fan base, especially for a game that's still in development and requires a fee to access the client, and there's obviously going to be disgruntled users, trolls, and so on. It is disheartening. It sucks. And it's even offensive when you see those people bash the work of the guys working around you day and night to deliver the best product you can. I know that feeling. I've been on this industry for long enough to understand that. But in the long run, this is far more damaging than a million fansites speaking about a user that was banned for no reason. Heck, this thread on itself could be used to craft news bashing you, based on what has happened here, and make wild accusations backed by the posts here. It's seriously gone too far. Way too far. I don't know if you have a Community Manager in your team. But if you don't, please, consider hiring one or having someone onboard that can help you with that. On this particular case, you've missed a few chances to make yourself as a company look good and get rid of whatever you considered damaging to yourselves.

Also, that screenshot showing the "No reason specified" (assuming is real) is a serious mistake. I mean, not the ban, I could care less about why anyone was banned. But the fact that no reason was provided for it. It's just not good practice because it leads to things like this.

Having said that, in the other hand. RD staff. Yes, you are volunteers. Yes, you are simracers. Yes, you don't necessarily have to have community management experience. And yes, you're owners of your own words. But keep in mind that you're also part of what shapes the RD forums. Your opinions are usually well considered by the rest of the community, and they can very well turn into something that leads people to say "hey, if they are saying X, it must be X!".

Finally, RD is one of the biggest simracing fansites, afaik. So, I'd say for SMS it's on the best of its interests to actually have a good relationship with them (and any fansite that wants to devote their time to pCars in any shape or form, really) and at the same time, is just as interesting for RD to have that same good relationship with SMS. Why? Because eventually, the game will be released, and it'd be a shame if any new users that are brought to the genre by the game, don't get to know RD because this just snowballed into something crazy.

A parting thought: Ian mentioned 73000 members (correct me if I'm wrong). Let's put this number into the proper perspective for everyone. At most, of those 73000, I'd venture to say than 7300 might be invested enough into the game to go on other forums than WMD (that is your hardcore audience, generally speaking). Of those 7300, at most, how many of them might be on RD? 50%? (and I'm probably being too generous).

Fastforward to the release of pCars. Let's actually think that the game does well (I really hope so) and sells, I don't know, 2m units combined.

Of 2.000.000 players, at most, 3600 saw this one discussion in the alpha stages of the game were someone claimed he was banned for no reason. That's a 0.0018% of your playerbase. Even if you want to assume that the 73k members saw it, it's a 0,0365% of your playerbase. Which amounts to... nothing (almost).

So my question to both sides would be... Seriously? This one thing warrants effin' up all the benefits you can mutually bring to the table?
 
He's a bit of a freak coder. He seems to know more about tyre physics than I've been able to dream of. He works for us part time though as he has a very well paid job in film so the deliveries are a bit slower than they would otherwise be.

Remember Eero Pitulainnen coded our current tyre physics. The fact that they've been panned by the community comes as a shock to me but so be it. We listen, we improve.
 
I could never get G27 and F1 2011 to play nice, I either had poor low speed woes, or fix that and then have terrible understeer at high speed.
Ok, so you find F1 2011 to be a good game?.....it's not a sim, but isn't it a good racing game from your POV?
Its some nice racing fun for an F1 freake at the beginning of a race weekend.I drive with 900° and 60-70% saduration
 
Honestly, I feel you're snowballing something that is really a non-issue.

Ian (and rest of SMS staff), as disheartening as it is to see someone bashing you and using baseless claims as the reason for it, you might be doing yourselves an even bigger disservice by requesting things like moderation on a thread on a fansite. I mean, yes, the thread appeared on other sites. Big. deal.
Seriously, it has as much relevance as you want to give it, even if it hits the New York Times headlines, as long as the part being accused here (you) can defend itself through the proper channels if it even gets THAT far (PR) there's no loss.

pCars has a large fan base, especially for a game that's still in development and requires a fee to access the client, and there's obviously going to be disgruntled users, trolls, and so on. It is disheartening. It sucks. And it's even offensive when you see those people bash the work of the guys working around you day and night to deliver the best product you can. I know that feeling. I've been on this industry for long enough to understand that. But in the long run, this is far more damaging than a million fansites speaking about a user that was banned for no reason. Heck, this thread on itself could be used to craft news bashing you, based on what has happened here, and make wild accusations backed by the posts here. It's seriously gone too far. Way too far. I don't know if you have a Community Manager in your team. But if you don't, please, consider hiring one or having someone onboard that can help you with that. On this particular case, you've missed a few chances to make yourself as a company look good and get rid of whatever you considered damaging to yourselves.

Also, that screenshot showing the "No reason specified" (assuming is real) is a serious mistake. I mean, not the ban, I could care less about why anyone was banned. But the fact that no reason was provided for it. It's just not good practice because it leads to things like this.

Having said that, in the other hand. RD staff. Yes, you are volunteers. Yes, you are simracers. Yes, you don't necessarily have to have community management experience. And yes, you're owners of your own words. But keep in mind that you're also part of what shapes the RD forums. Your opinions are usually well considered by the rest of the community, and they can very well turn into something that leads people to say "hey, if they are saying X, it must be X!".

Finally, RD is one of the biggest simracing fansites, afaik. So, I'd say for SMS it's on the best of its interests to actually have a good relationship with them (and any fansite that wants to devote their time to pCars in any shape or form, really) and at the same time, is just as interesting for RD to have that same good relationship with SMS. Why? Because eventually, the game will be released, and it'd be a shame if any new users that are brought to the genre by the game, don't get to know RD because this just snowballed into something crazy.

A parting thought: Ian mentioned 73000 members (correct me if I'm wrong). Let's put this number into the proper perspective for everyone. At most, of those 73000, I'd venture to say than 7300 might be invested enough into the game to go on other forums than WMD (that is your hardcore audience, generally speaking). Of those 7300, at most, how many of them might be on RD? 50%? (and I'm probably being too generous).

Fastforward to the release of pCars. Let's actually think that the game does well (I really hope so) and sells, I don't know, 2m units combined.

Of 2.000.000 players, at most, 3600 saw this one discussion in the alpha stages of the game were someone claimed he was banned for no reason. That's a 0.0018% of your playerbase. Even if you want to assume that the 73k members saw it, it's a 0,0365% of your playerbase. Which amounts to... nothing (almost).

So my question to both sides would be... Seriously? This one thing warrants effin' up all the benefits you can mutually bring to the table?

Great post Alejandro.

Believe me I really do want a good relationship with RD, but please understand that when we see an injustice posted that can be easily corrected, we're approaching the admins/owners only. We have nothing but respect for the majority of the members here but the thread that has now been closed, thankfully, was a tirade of abuse, much of it personal and would have been moderated out in any other site. It is/was much more than the single thread title. As I say, that thread seemed to grow into a haven for those spewing vitriol at us. If it was at pCARS only then it would be fine, but it was against our company and that steps over the line if it goes unmoderated and is quoted elsewhere.

Also I should repeat my motivation for posting personally here. For good or for bad we made the decision early on that if we were to initiate a system such as pCARS/WMD we would engage the community in all shapes and forms that entails. That means that for the most part we can happily say thanks to the vast majority who are balanced and or positive, but it also means we don't ignore those with a more negative skew to their perceptions. When that negativity slips into outright abuse and lies then it would be cowardly of me to ignore it. We only ask for normal moderation, following the posting rules of this forum. The 'banned' thread got clearly out of line.

I've offered 10 free passes to RD members that PM me as an olive branch but I appear to be banging my head off a brick wall with the owners here when I ask for the same moderation afforded to others.

Again Bram, please feel free to post the PM exchange we've had, as you posited as a threat to me. I'll happily defend anything I said or requested.
 
He's a bit of a freak coder. He seems to know more about tyre physics than I've been able to dream of. He works for us part time though as he has a very well paid job in film so the deliveries are a bit slower than they would otherwise be.

Remember Eero Pitulainnen coded our current tyre physics. The fact that they've been panned by the community comes as a shock to me but so be it. (...)
The "community" doesn't know the code, just the racing games that you guys produced with it.

To quote myself
"What's the best physics engine worth when you create an horrible game :)"
 
Great post Alejandro.

Believe me I really do want a good relationship with RD, but please understand that when we see an injustice posted that can be easily corrected, we're approaching the admins/owners only. We have nothing but respect for the majority of the members here but the thread that has now been closed, thankfully, was a tirade of abuse, much of it personal and would have been moderated out in any other site. It is/was much more than the single thread title. As I say, that thread seemed to grow into a haven for those spewing vitriol at us. If it was at pCARS only then it would be fine, but it was against our company and that steps over the line if it goes unmoderated and is quoted elsewhere.

Also I should repeat my motivation for posting personally here. For good or for bad we made the decision early on that if we were to initiate a system such as pCARS/WMD we would engage the community in all shapes and forms that entails. That means that for the most part we can happily say thanks to the vast majority who are balanced and or positive, but it also means we don't ignore those with a more negative skew to their perceptions. When that negativity slips into outright abuse and lies then it would be cowardly of me to ignore it. We only ask for normal moderation, following the posting rules of this forum. The 'banned' thread got clearly out of line.


Right. And I understand where you're coming from. I haven't seen the whole thread myself, I remember reading part of it though. But if there was any kind of abuse towards the SMS staff (and by any kind of abuse I mean insults, personal attacks, etc directed at particular employees) then that's definitely something that would have been moderated. Now if they were saying that it was a "bad job". Well, as much as that sucks it's an opinion that you can't really debate. I know it sucks, but that's how it is.

Also, and please understand what I'm going to say next for what it is. I think you made the wrong call on this. You are the Head of SMS. With everything that implies. There's noone higher than you on your company (I'm assuming SMS has a "traditional" structure, you probably get what I mean) and by exposing yourself on this way, as honest as your intentions are, it means that one can easily extrapolate something crazy and say "SMS doesn't like critics of their games". And then there's the other issue. Yes, it's something inappropiate. But you shouldn't interfere with any fansite. At least not demanding anything. At most you can suggest/inform/whatever about something you feel is wrong and hope that the owners of the fansite agree with your concerns.

The moment you deem something shouldn't be in a fansite forum, you cross a line that noone can really cross. Would it make sense if a fansite demanded you to admit troll posts bashing the game and yourselves in the WMD forums because "hey, it's cool!"? Probably not.
 
The "community" doesn't know the code, just the racing games that you guys produced with it.

To quote myself
"What's the best physics engine worth when you create an horrible game :)"

But sometimes you have to take stock and accept that the code might simply 'not be up to the job'. Honestly I had many chats with Eero discussing how we could improve it but he felt it was as good as it could be. This is the guy that coded the RBR physics engine singlehandedly remember. That's why it surprises me when it's panned by the hardcore. Yes we aimed for 'accessibility' and had to with EA and the Shift games but that wasn't the case with pCARS in teh early days. Our aim there was always to be the most realistic sim possible but the same code got panned, hence the new guy and the new code.

I'm optimistic.
 
Right. And I understand where you're coming from. I haven't seen the whole thread myself, I remember reading part of it though. But if there was any kind of abuse towards the SMS staff (and by any kind of abuse I mean insults, personal attacks, etc directed at particular employees) then that's definitely something that would have been moderated. Now if they were saying that it was a "bad job". Well, as much as that sucks it's an opinion that you can't really debate. I know it sucks, but that's how it is.

Also, and please understand what I'm going to say next for what it is. I think you made the wrong call on this. You are the Head of SMS. With everything that implies. There's noone higher than you on your company (I'm assuming SMS has a "traditional" structure, you probably get what I mean) and by exposing yourself on this way, as honest as your intentions are, it means that one can easily extrapolate something crazy and say "SMS doesn't like critics of their games". And then there's the other issue. Yes, it's something inappropiate. But you shouldn't interfere with any fansite. At least not demanding anything. At most you can suggest/inform/whatever about something you feel is wrong and hope that the owners of the fansite agree with your concerns.

The moment you deem something shouldn't be in a fansite forum, you cross a line that noone can really cross. Would it make sense if a fansite demanded you to admit troll posts bashing the game and yourselves in the WMD forums because "hey, it's cool!"? Probably not.

'But if there was any kind of abuse towards the SMS staff (and by any kind of abuse I mean insults, personal attacks, etc directed at particular employees) then that's definitely something that would have been moderated.'

There was and it wasn't. It's worth going through and reading that thread, even after the recent moderation.

As I've said before, please happily abuse pCARS to hell and back if that's how you feel about it. We really do listen and respond. But that's not what happened in that thread.
 

Latest News

What's needed for simracing in 2024?

  • More games, period

  • Better graphics/visuals

  • Advanced physics and handling

  • More cars and tracks

  • AI improvements

  • AI engineering

  • Cross-platform play

  • New game Modes

  • Other, post your idea


Results are only viewable after voting.
Back
Top