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The what pisses you off the most about rF2 thread

GuitarTech

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So, by popular request, here it is. It's going to be a long post, but please bear with me.
As the title says, I'd like to talk about all the niggling "quirks and features" that are present in rF2, and whether they should be fixed or not. There are so many of them I mostly can't recall them all at any one time, but I'll mention the ones that really wind me up personally, the ones that scream in my face every time I use rF2.
I don't want to get into the replacement UI, that is a subject all of it's own which does not belong in this thread.
No, I'm talking about the things that have been there since the beginning of time, or at least since S397 took over in 2016. Listed, in no particular order:
Why does the video settings menu revert back to generic every time I close the game? Why do I have to select "RTX3080", (in my case), every time I start the game? Is that really so hard to change? (I'm not being provocative here, it's a genuine question) In fact that could apply to all the things I'm going to mention here, why havn't they been changed years ago?
The Full Course Yellow bug. Surely, in an application that is more sim than game, and one that is heavily biased towards endurance racing, is this bug in any way realistic?
The missing realistic transmission model. Does the fact that you can completely ignore the clutch ('cos it doesn't really work ) really fit into a realistic sim?
Why can't you change cars or tracks without having to back to the "desktop" for want of a better word?
Why can't you just do it in the garage? It would save literally hours in loading times.
Talking about loading times: why are the loading times so glacial? If you only have to do it once, it's bad enough, but if you're popping in and out constantly trying out different settings, you can spend half the evening just sitting there like a jerk with the VR headset on watching the track load for the fifteenth time.
And don't get me started on the Workshop system. Every time you re-install, afterwards you have to go into the Workshop and scroll through nearly 600 addons, and untick all the ones you don't want because you never use them.
A lot of the stuff in there looks like something out of the 90's, and the majority of it will never be updated.
Why can't they change it so that you only get the content you had in the old install, and not everything?
It works with the DLC you've bought, why not with all the other content?
If that's not possible, why can't you just get a vanilla install with only the DLC content, and then you can go into the Workshop and select the content that you DO want?
I don't re-install that often, thank goodness, but every time I do have to re-install, I get that sinking feeling, oh no, here we go again. It's a real ball-ache to be honest.
As I recall, there is some kind of workaround (another fix for something that shouldn't be broken in the first place), but I've forgotten it, and can't find it again due to rF2s almost complete lack of documentation.
And the AI, the never-ending story of the AI. Why is it so crap? Why does somebody punt me off the track every second race, or even in practice, whatever settings I use? And if by a miracle I find a setting that works, it only works for that one track. I have to screw around for hours and hours for every track, and the settings don't take without having to come out, and then load the track again. See loading times.
S397 have achieved an enormous amount over the past four years or so, credit where credit's due.
The change to DX11, VR capability ( although the loading screen could be better: why do I see the rF2 logo in front of me ( that would be perfectly adaquate ), but also to the left, to the right, and over my head too. And why doesn't the VR centre button work during the loading sequence? Why do I have to turn my head to the right till it gets onto the home page, before the VR centre button works?
The industry standard FF, the driving physics, the tyre model, the immersion factor are all things that keep me coming back to rF2 time and time again. There are other sims and driving games that don't have all of rF2s "quirks and features", but none where I really have the feeling that I'm there in the cockpit.
If you've managed to get to the end without falling asleep, thank you. I'll be interested to hear what other people think, and I have no problem with being corrected if I've written something that isn't true.
It isn't my intention to provoke, these are just my personal thoughts about things that have always really annoyed me over the years, because they're all things that just shouldn't be there, and things that should have been fixed years ago. I mean it's bad enough making coding mistakes like these, which must have been apparent during the beta test phase, but then to just ignore them, and leave them in for years and years just boggles my mind. I mean why, just why?

Edited once for content.
 
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@Durge Driven
..Sadly, the official forum threads are often stalked by a few specific people who feel there is nothing wrong with rF2 and defend the software like it's their own child which is as useless as attacking rF2 with destructive criticism.
and when you come across those people make sure your point is valid not not just a complain for the sake of complaining. As an example when I firs posted how S397 had implement unrealistic sky colors a few on S397 discord converge on me and called me insane and how I should get outside to experience what what real sky looked like. Instead going on a bitch fest a just continue posting photos supporting my believe. Forward a few months and guess what? I the process of improving the overall rf2 graphics S397 correct the unrealistic green sky color. I would like to think I had some influence(may be i didn't but still ok).
 
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Okay this is speaking as a moderator.
First, as has been pointed out the thread was created to prevent other rF2 threads from being hijacked.
Second, the title couldn't be clearer, so you know what you're getting.
However like many others it's now been dragged off topic and turned into a slagging match.
I'm going to remove some of these off topic posts and suggest people stay on it.
I'm shocked you thought my post was out line and you felt it need to be deleted.
I understand it's your site and you can do as you please but still not correct.
 
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37
The point of this thread is to give a place where it's ok to sound off about stuff you don't like about rF2 instead of hijacking every front page article. That way, people who don't want to read through pages of complaints, which are unrelated to the topic of said articles, don't need to read them. Same goes for you in this instance - if you don't like this thread don't read it.
RD solved that issue since it hasn't posted anything on rF2 for over month now. So now we have no news threads to be hijacked. :sneaky:
 
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0
Honestly, Studio 397 are a joke. Particularly Marcel as well, who I believe is responsible for calling the shots (or at least was prior to the acquisition). It has been, what, 5 years since Studio 397 took over? During that time we have seen significant changes, but everything relating to the AI has been completely untouched, and in some areas broken 'unintentionally'. Here are just some of the issues that have been acknowledged and on a "to do list" for what appears to be an eternity:

  1. Full Course Yellows completely and utterly broken (acknowledged back in 2018 and were confident that a fix would be available but this never materialised).
  2. AI Cars that intend to pit do not overtake other cars, even if they're a much faster class. The logic does simply not allow for this, and it has been reported countless times.
  3. AI Cars during wet weather repeatedly pit each lap (the bug was introduced by Studio 397 - which they acknowledged - but have since refused to fix, despite it being raised multiple times and reported over the years.
  4. Erratic Throttle & Breaking for AI Cars that was introduced in Build: 1110 in 2018. Interestingly, the patch notes state, and I quote "Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." This particular change is a perfect example of Marcels incompetence. It caused every single car (regardless of skill or track) to erratically throttle and break, resulting in slower lap times, speed and produce the most obnoxious earbleed. Even though I reported this issue on the very same day it was released, it has never been fixed, despite all of my attempts. Here are just some of the excuses for this particular issue as well:
"05/02/2020 Marrs: I am too, we did not change that AI code, so it must have been a side effect of something else. I will have to review it. Are the actual laptimes and behaviour of the AI different or is it just the way they apply throttle/brakes?"
Logically this doesn't make any sense, at all. He acknowledged this issue back in 2018 alongside Christopher, who is another developer at Studio 397. Despite all of my attempts at asking for an update prior to this date, I am simply met with "it's on our to do list" - even though they caused this issue!. Also shows that there is absolutely zero urgency with this, even though it is a significant change.

"06/02/2020 Marrs: But in the case of AI, we have a good knowledge of the code. I mentioned it's on our shortlist and we in fact already did some analysis and looked at the video you posted too, confirmed it in our data logging, so something is up. That is where we are today.
I would argue that this isn't the case at all. They have clearly demonstrated leading up to 2021 that they are unable to revert simple changes (which were clearly not tested). This is another post effectively telling me the same thing as before.
"06/02/2020 Marrs: Cheers, that is very helpful. While we were talking I was just catching up with our our physics/AI guy for a status update and he believes he found roughly the time period where the change happened, so we're on to something for sure. (throttle/brake behaviour I am now talking about again)."
Again, already provided the data as to when this changed back in 2018. It was Build: 1110 in 2018. Bare in mind these replies are from 2020 as well, so at this stage they have had nearly 2 years to fix the issue that they caused.
"06/04/2020 Marrs: Someone's still looking into it (or at least has it on his todo list)."
Requested another update. Still on our "to do list"

"26/05/2020 Marrs: As I explained in our last roadmap, certain priorities have shifted so this task is still not done. It's on our list, but there have been so many special projects that we simply have not gotten to it."
Priorities have 'shifted' despite them introducing this behaviour in 2018. And yes, at this stage they have done nothing to attempt to fix it.

"26/05/2020 Marrs: You know it's not forgotten. The issue is time. It is not as simple as reverting that behaviour as this is most likely a side effect of other AI fixes we did."
Again, makes absolutely zero sense at all. Build: 1110 specifically states ""Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." The way I interpret this reply is... a bug (that I, or probably most other people were completely unaware of) has been described as fixed, is not actually fixed, and instead it is now happening to all cars - on all tracks - at all skill levels. Yet they do not warrant a reversal of the change because it would impact the 'fixes' they have made, which have actually made the game worse.

"22/12/2020 Marrs: We are working on it, but a proper solution will need a bit more time, so that's scheduled for early 2021."
At last, I have confirmation that Q1 will include changes to erratic throttle and breaking, slip streaming, and other related AI issues.

"06/05/2021 Marrs: Yeah, sorry to disappoint you, but I have been too busy to respond to a lot of messages on discord and otherwise."
You guessed it correctly. Radio silence for months and no signs of any of those changes which were confirmed in Q1.

"18/05/2021 Marrs: Sure, I am not sure yet when a fix will emerge. It seems likely at this point that we might rewrite a bit more of the AI system, but I can't confirm that yet."
Back on the "to do list" again.

"18/05/2021 Marrs: We're not ignoring the problem. The acquisition has kept us busy for a while, but it also gave us some new options and insights. Thanks.
Advising that the acquisition has kept them busy which is why we have had no updates.

"20/05/2021 Marrs: Oh I understand people get frustrated by the very long time this takes. I already stated we have no intention of abandoning AI, but I also won't say a fix is imminent."
Now saying that a fix is longer imminent (was it really even in the works, let's be honest).

"20/05/2021 Marrs: There are a lot of suggestions and fixes we can't immediately attend to, and there are also changes we can't anticipate. So typically we don't write about the stuff we're not yet doing in the roadmap, and sometimes we also change priorities there. I'm not trying to be vague, nor trying to lure you into buying or supporting anything based on future promises. Sometimes we are and can be open, sometimes that is more difficult. The statement I made to you earlier about AI work has been delayed because other priorities in MSG (which I am not free to disclose right now). So there went my promise. :/ But that's life."
Obviously to keep things slightly streamlined, I have only included key responses but ultimately, what was going to be possible (as a result of the acquisition and increased resources) has now suddenly been 'delayed'.

"17/06/2021 Marrs: Still waiting for some other work in MSG that is higher priority right now. I understand the sentiment though."
Very much on our "to do list" again, even though the issue was acknowledged in 2018. This is was after me asking just for an update on the erratic throttle and breaking issue. I did not even mention the other issues.

"17/06/2021 Marrs: Stating it has not been a priority is, in my book, not an excuse. Rolling back the change is something we considered, but we would also be bringing back the bug that we did fix as part of that so we decided not to do that.
Briefly mentions about 'rolling back the change' and it was something they considered, but it would then bring back the 'bug' that they did fix as part of the build. Again, when I ask for clarity on this bug, he does not address the question. To make this clear again, they made the following change: ""Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." but it actually transpires that what they described as fixed, is now happening to every car - on every track - at every skill level. So logically this makes no sense. Why wouldn't you revert this change given the resulting behaviour?
"17/06/2021 Marrs: I'm fine discussing or not discussing this. I can obviously see a bit more from where I'm sitting and I can tell you this will be fixed but (I think I can safely say that now) after the upcoming NASCAR game release. I appreciate you did not encounter that bug. We did. Right now it is really a matter of waiting for someone to become available for this."
Now telling me that it will be addressed after the NASCAR game is released. You will be able to reference the race department forums for this but he said the same thing when the Grand Tour game was due to release. I vaguely recall him saying "Our AI Programmer will be available after the Grand Tour game is released to look at this." (as you guessed it, this didn't materialise very well either...)

"17/06/2021 Marrs: I have not acknowledged your post because I have nothing to say about it anymore. I know what the current state is, and I know that we will look into it but not now."
Basically back on the tod list, doesn't even comment on the other remaining issues either relating to the AI.

5. AI inability to utilise slipstream (arguably one of the most controversial topics, particularly when this issue has been acknowledged on multiple occasions over the years. What an absolute mess this has been as well. You will see various sources on Discord, Race Department, and the official forums. All the usual spill of "it's on our to do list", "our priorities have changed" over and over for the last five years.

Ultimately, It is so deeply disappointing to see Studio 397 take over, break a number of things, promise to fix it, and then not bother to do so with the AI. They're forever moving the goal post further and further. Marcel could not even comment when I asked him "do you ever recall where you have followed through with a change to the AI" over 5 years. He knows full well that this hasn't happened.

I even mentioned the state of the forums, which he then raised the importance of them being 'liberal' but let's not forget that Marcg's post was censored and removed.

so yeah, *** Marcel, and **** Studio 397. The above is just a small snippet of the absolute crap I have been told over the years. Absolutely sick of it.
 
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GuitarTech

Premium
Messages
948
Points
192
Honestly, Studio 397 are a joke. Particularly Marcel as well, who I believe is responsible for calling the shots (or at least was prior to the acquisition). It has been, what, 5 years since Studio 397 took over? During that time we have seen significant changes, but everything relating to the AI has been completely untouched, and in some areas broken 'unintentionally'. Here are just some of the issues that have been acknowledged and on a "to do list" for what appears to be an eternity:

  1. Full Course Yellows completely and utterly broken (acknowledged back in 2018 and were confident that a fix would be available but this never materialised).
  2. AI Cars that intend to pit do not overtake other cars, even if they're a much faster class. The logic does simply not allow for this, and it has been reported countless times.
  3. AI Cars during wet weather repeatedly pit each lap (the bug was introduced by Studio 397 - which they acknowledged - but have since refused to fix, despite it being raised multiple times and reported over the years.
  4. Erratic Throttle & Breaking for AI Cars that was introduced in Build: 1110 in 2018. Interestingly, the patch notes state, and I quote "Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." This particular change is a perfect example of Marcels incompetence. It caused every single car (regardless of skill or track) to erratically throttle and break, resulting in slower lap times, speed and produce the most obnoxious earbleed. Even though I reported this issue on the very same day it was released, it has never been fixed, despite all of my attempts. Here are just some of the excuses for this particular issue as well:

Logically this doesn't make any sense, at all. He acknowledged this issue back in 2018 alongside Christopher, who is another developer at Studio 397. Despite all of my attempts at asking for an update prior to this date, I am simply met with "it's on our to do list" - even though they caused this issue!. Also shows that there is absolutely zero urgency with this, even though it is a significant change.


I would argue that this isn't the case at all. They have clearly demonstrated leading up to 2021 that they are unable to revert simple changes (which were clearly not tested). This is another post effectively telling me the same thing as before.

Again, already provided the data as to when this changed back in 2018. It was Build: 1110 in 2018. Bare in mind these replies are from 2020 as well, so at this stage they have had nearly 2 years to fix the issue that they caused.

Requested another update. Still on our "to do list"


Priorities have 'shifted' despite them introducing this behaviour in 2018. And yes, at this stage they have done nothing to attempt to fix it.


Again, makes absolutely zero sense at all. Build: 1110 specifically states ""Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." The way I interpret this reply is... a bug (that I, or probably most other people were completely unaware of) has been described as fixed, is not actually fixed, and instead it is now happening to all cars - on all tracks - at all skill levels. Yet they do not warrant a reversal of the change because it would impact the 'fixes' they have made, which have actually made the game worse.


At last, I have confirmation that Q1 will include changes to erratic throttle and breaking, slip streaming, and other related AI issues.


You guessed it correctly. Radio silence for months and no signs of any of those changes which were confirmed in Q1.


Back on the "to do list" again.


Advising that the acquisition has kept them busy which is why we have had no updates.


Now saying that a fix is longer imminent (was it really even in the works, let's be honest).


Obviously to keep things slightly streamlined, I have only included key responses but ultimately, what was going to be possible (as a result of the acquisition and increased resources) has now suddenly been 'delayed'.


Very much on our "to do list" again, even though the issue was acknowledged in 2018. This is was after me asking just for an update on the erratic throttle and breaking issue. I did not even mention the other issues.


Briefly mentions about 'rolling back the change' and it was something they considered, but it would then bring back the 'bug' that they did fix as part of the build. Again, when I ask for clarity on this bug, he does not address the question. To make this clear again, they made the following change: ""Fixed an issue with the AI throttle and brake application, which would cause poor acceleration at very low AI strengths." but it actually transpires that what they described as fixed, is now happening to every car - on every track - at every skill level. So logically this makes no sense. Why wouldn't you revert this change given the resulting behaviour?

Now telling me that it will be addressed after the NASCAR game is released. You will be able to reference the race department forums for this but he said the same thing when the Grand Tour game was due to release. I vaguely recall him saying "Our AI Programmer will be available after the Grand Tour game is released to look at this." (as you guessed it, this didn't materialise very well either...)


Basically back on the tod list, doesn't even comment on the other remaining issues either relating to the AI.

5. AI inability to utilise slipstream (arguably one of the most controversial topics, particularly when this issue has been acknowledged on multiple occasions over the years. What an absolute mess this has been as well. You will see various sources on Discord, Race Department, and the official forums. All the usual spill of "it's on our to do list", "our priorities have changed" over and over for the last five years.

Ultimately, It is so deeply disappointing to see Studio 397 take over, break a number of things, promise to fix it, and then not bother to do so with the AI. They're forever moving the goal post further and further. Marcel could not even comment when I asked him "do you ever recall where you have followed through with a change to the AI" over 5 years. He knows full well that this hasn't happened.

I even mentioned the state of the forums, which he then raised the importance of them being 'liberal' but let's not forget that Marcg's post was censored and removed.
Won't be long till Durge Driven pops up here, telling us all that these things are all details, and with a few hours JSON file tweaking, it'll all be perfect
:)
 

Gevatter

The James May of Simracing
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Won't be long till Durge Driven pops up here, telling us all that these things are all details, and with a few hours JSON file tweaking, it'll all be perfect
:)
If he does, we can now send him on his merry way:
 
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On my "what I like in rF2" thread, I did not mention the AI, and the racing rules, precisely because they are major weaknesses of rF2.
Ditto for the online, but I am an offline simracer so I don't care.

I would add that my "relationship with rFactor 2" (in quotation) is really a mix between love and hate, a lot of disappointments, a need to be excessively patient,...... This simulation drives you crazy.

But you will find that in reality there are many more good (even great) things than bad.

The worst thing being the fact that rF2 is not userfriendly.

Read my thread, it gives hope ! (lol).

Ah yes, and I specify that I am not "Durge Driven".
 
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