tactile feedback with LFEs

[Magiashkii]

Just wanted to share my journey with adding tactile feedback to my existing 8020 rig.

I started down this road by following a thread posted by Mr. Latte. We spoke about the pros and cons and what would work best. The rig i have now has gone through many changes as i wanted a better experience while sim racing. I will have to dig up pictures of my home built rig so you can see the progression that got me to this point. It has been a really fun transition to go from a simple rig to something that has become a beast with help from many members in the community. Tactile feedback was the next plan to add another level of immersion and i was very lucky to find Mr. Latte for this new project. His knowledge base is just simply amazing and i can't thank him enough. Here are some starting pictures and i will be uploading more as i go through the build. Once it's built, i will provide feedback to hopefully help others in the community
four LFEs ready to do battle in chassis mode

more to come this week...

 

[Ceolmor]

Nice rig @Magiashkii. I look forward to following your journey. +1 for @Mr Latte

You've probably seen my more modest efforts here
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/getting-into-tactile-immersion-help-please.139738/page-2
If not, start at post #20.

 

[Mr Latte]

In a more serious note however appreciation is nice but I enjoy this and the whole adventure, puzzle solving of it all in finding ways to implement the hardware and get good performance.

Big Energy / Big Challenges Ahead?
Talking of a challenge this thread brings one for a potentially rather special cockpit.
So let's see, a race rig with VR3 motion, with GS4 motion and going to use high-end tactile, mmmmm

We don't seem to see any rigs using this combo and such a high level of tactile so it brings challenges how to best install the tactile as to date we can only see some rigs with the VR3 using a BK Gamer or with smaller/budget tactile attached. If anything @HoiHman has the best example of tactile on a GS4 seat and using the same VR3 motion.

iNuke DSP amps will help get extra detail out of the BK-LFE shakers. As while they undoubtedly have the best low-end frequency performance and up to crazy amounts of energy. They do lack in detailing with mid and higher frequencies compared to some other models that excel with those frequencies.
As this user will discover we can alter the character of the units to perform better detailing, with improved presence for frequencies in the 60+ Hz range.


Keen to see how this goes its gonna be one to watch....
There are some ideas to float about and discuss but like always it's up to the owner to decide how and what to do.

 

[Magiashkii]

here are the build pictures for adding the LFEs to my rig. I need to create a base on top of the v3 to hold them since mounting them on my frame was so isolated from the seat that i would never feel them. i used 8020 (40mm x 40mm) for all added parts

then i just had to make the arms that would mount directly to the top of the v3

here is the completed rear mounting system

 

[Magiashkii]

the front pedal assembly needed a change from the current setup. it was very rigid but lacked any place to mount the front LFEs

so i made a new assembly to hold each pedal separately

the finished pedal base ready for my HPPs

and mounted with pedals

 

[Magiashkii]

the finished front

and the rear

 

[Magiashkii]

With the help of Mr. Latte i purchased the proper amps with DSP to get the best experience and be able to fine tune the range to make sure there is no bottoming out with the LFEs

and added a second sound card for SSW

wiring the LFEs on the base was a issue due to the movement but this was my solution

now onto testing with files from Mr. Latte. I will be updating with the results of what worked and if there are any mods to the install of hardware to make sure that the energy from the bass shakers isn't lost in the frame

 

[Ceolmor]

I like what you've done. I will be interested to know your results, in particular whether to feel any energy is lost in the frame at the seat end.

Although a very different setup http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/getting-into-tactile-immersion-help-please.139738/page-2 I have a single BK Advance attached to 40x40mm profiles under my fibreglass racing seat on my 80/20 rig, and don't feel I am getting enough energy through to my backside.

 

[HoiHman]

Great rig Magiashkii

Very, very simular set up to mine. I hope you tested the effect of the 80/20 frame + 2 LFE's on the COG (center of gravity) of your seat combination.

You might be pushing the limits of the Next Level Motion V3 with the added weight unless you are a very light guy.

Looking forward to your progress and feedback on having four LFE's in chassis mode. This comes dangerously close to my dream tactile setup. I would just add an extra transducer to the back of the GS-4 for engine RPM only (as i have, this might also solve the issue that @Ceolmor is describing)



Just another tip for extra immersion (when you're done with tactile). As you probably have noticed the G-force effect of the GS-4 is felt less when the NLMv3 also moves left/right. This can be compensated by modding the back panels and effectively give about the twice feedback in the corners.

Check out my youtube channel for a video of my modded GS-4 in action
https://www.youtube.com/user/HoiHman/videos

 

[Magiashkii]

i'm a light guy at 145 lbs so i'm below the weight restriction of the v3 for now. Where would you add the transducer on the back of the v3? The only place i thought of adding one would be on the bottom of the gs4... let me know your thoughts. Can you give me more info on the gs4 mods and pictures too

 

[Magiashkii]

so here is another update... tactile feedback from the rear is absolutely amazing and has totally transformed the driving and immersion. The car to road feel is another huge jump from just having the v3 seat mover. Being able to catch the car and feel the edge of traction is some that was just a visual queue to now something that feels so natural. It's hard to describe but driving just becomes more instinctive. Now on to the front pedal section... this needed an update and a simple move of the attachment point. When i put the rig together in the very beginning it was all about being as stiff as possible but not that part is killing any tactile feel in the front. I moved the LFEs from the cross member of the main frame

to directly to the pedals to reduce the loss of tactile energy

it's a super tight fit but now there is less energy loss into the main frame.
To enhance the road feel, i have worked with Mr. Latte on a few custom files for the LFEs. What truly amazes me about the LFEs is that there is so much feel they bring out in any sim but there is so little noise that they produce. The Next Level v3 produces much more noise, which is still a very quiet unit for motion when compared to other motion solutions. This current configuration was better but i still need better isolation from the pedal assembly to the frame. I just purchased isolators that will be used between the main frame and pedals to eliminate a solid metal to metal connection. i will update the rig and give feedback on what works better. In the meantime i have downloaded some new profiles created by Mr. Latte (aka the tactile guru) to enhance the lower frequency output and really get the LFEs coming to life. So far SSW has been a great tool but the only thing missing is the engine feedback. Luckily i already have Simcommander 4 for my GS4 so i'm going to try to add engine and gear tactile feedback soon. If SSW had that one option i think it might be almost a perfect solution... hint hint i would love to see it added soon if possible. Stay tuned in for the performance review using the new profiles in the iNukes

 

[signman]

Staying tuned !

 

[Magiashkii]

there was a little setback as the miter saw i was using to cut my 8020 died and i haven't been able to finish the new pieces needed for adding these into the build

the 4 isolators will be added to the pedal assembly to reduce the loss of tactile feedback into the main frame sections by disconnecting the hard mount of metal to metal with the 8020 sections. Each isolator is rated to 375 lbs and therefore not flex under heavy braking but i could be completely wrong and the whole pedal assembly might flex like a wet noodle... and that would suck which would make me wrong as usual LOL. The ADXs will be added with 1 under the pedals and 1 under the GS4 for engine feedback using Simvibe. Since using the current added sound card for SSW and running a Rift, i can use Simvibe off of the onboard audio on the MB

 

[HugoB]

What happened to your build? Did you get it to work? This would be my dream setup. Going for NLV3 with Buttkicker Advance attached somehow, maybe stealing your idea with the 40x40 frame.
Did you add any isolators between NLV3 and rig or do the NLV3 actuators offer enough isolation from the rig? (Buttkickers attached to seat)

Under the pedals I’ll also use Buttkicker Advance, don’t know how to attach it yet, will be on a Sim-Lab P1. But for sure would like to know if your rubber isolators at the pedals deck worked? Looking at the same item, did they flex or was it good?

Thanks!

 

[Magiashkii]

I ended up with some changes to the 8020 frame that just didn't work right with the bass shakers. I had to reduce the 8020 from 160mmx80mm down to 80mmX40mm. Only under the pedals was it necessary to use isolators. I tried using isolators on top of the seat mounting area on the v3 but ending up taking them out and the results we just as good. There was a very slight flex in the pedal deck but it feels amazing. I can upload some pictures for you to see the differences

 

[Magiashkii]

 

[HugoB]

I ended up with some changes to the 8020 frame that just didn't work right with the bass shakers. I had to reduce the 8020 from 160mmx80mm down to 80mmX40mm. Only under the pedals was it necessary to use isolators. I tried using isolators on top of the seat mounting area on the v3 but ending up taking them out and the results we just as good. There was a very slight flex in the pedal deck but it feels amazing. I can upload some pictures for you to see the differences

Wow! Looks great! Thanks for sharing. That really is my dream setup Good to know one does not need isolators between seat and V3, I was afraid to loose movement fidelity due to the flex of the rubber. I can live with some flex in the pedals if the tactile is greater. Those isolators look good. I’ll be getting the same. I see you took the strongest ones right? I also see you got the iNuke 3000... lucky you, they are no longer being made apparently, you’ve got unobtainium there! The 1000 cant give the LFE all they can take and the 6000 are bigger and louder and more expensive and have too much power. Your GS-4 is also unobtainium

Enjoy your setup!!!

 

[Mr Latte]

Nice to see this build continue....

I think what needs done with VR3 platform to successfully have isolators help to maintain tactile energy (which they will) is to have top/bottom alu plates for the VR3 "H" frame.

With some creativity and d.i.y a user could have isolators sandwiched in between and the lot bolted together over the current "H" supports to form a new support platform for L/R sides. These could be securely fixed but offering a good level of dampening for the then attached seat supports. Additional antivibration materials could also be used on the alu plates. Certain such is possible, this way you would have a secure new platform that is isolated and get around the height issue. I queried at the time in having only isolators on top of the "H" and these being strongly flexed with the motion as shown above and was tried.

With such powerful tactile mounted directly to the seat you will feel the energy no problems even if say 30-40% of it is flowing straight into the VR3 chassis. My own queries and concern in this case is if the "VR3" electronics would have any issues with the quite extreme vibrations two BK LFE can cause. I very much doubt the manufacturer has tested this seat with such level of tactile or if such is even an issue. Somebody should maybe query this with the manufacturer and have it confirmed.

As for iNuke rumours, nothing yet has been clarified for certain but to say the 1000 DSP cant give the LFE enough power is in my own usage quite frankly bollocks. You can find a mix of input level with the front control and increase the source via the gain controls under the crossover section of the DSP.

This is like using a pre-amp for the "source" prior to amplification.
I had no issues from previously powering two BK LFE with ample power and the DSP 1000 that I can recall of. However will maybe look into this again.

 

[Magiashkii]

The build has changed again... I ended up selling the next level v3 and going to a full motion setup

 

[Balroque]

great build, looking forward to see full motion

Just for curiosity, why did you have to change 8020 from 160mmx80mm down to 80mmX40mm, also whats your felling from 3 bass shakers connected to the seat? and do you use SSW or Simvibe