tactile feedback with LFEs

[Magiashkii]

Just wanted to share my journey with adding tactile feedback to my existing 8020 rig.

I started down this road by following a thread posted by Mr. Latte. We spoke about the pros and cons and what would work best. The rig i have now has gone through many changes as i wanted a better experience while sim racing. I will have to dig up pictures of my home built rig so you can see the progression that got me to this point. It has been a really fun transition to go from a simple rig to something that has become a beast with help from many members in the community. Tactile feedback was the next plan to add another level of immersion and i was very lucky to find Mr. Latte for this new project. His knowledge base is just simply amazing and i can't thank him enough. Here are some starting pictures and i will be uploading more as i go through the build. Once it's built, i will provide feedback to hopefully help others in the community
four LFEs ready to do battle in chassis mode

more to come this week...

 

[Mr Latte]

After extensive testing with dbox and the bass shakers... I have found that they complement each other. Dbox just isn't a full frame mover but it also has tactile feedback on a whole other level. It can feel like it's going to shake the entire rig to bits and can be down right scary. The bass shakers are like a getting punched by a 5 year old verses dbox is more like getting punched by a pro boxer. The energy is almost exponential. A 6 point movement on a scale of 1 to 60 in the dbox software (when starting at the stock setting of 40) is suppose to be double the energy output... Which is a huge jump. I find that with the blending of the base shakers and dbox there is a very clear feel to each car and is worth keeping on the rig. I had thought initially I would be taking it off but it's absolutely staying on

I wouldn't doubt that the d-box has a lot of potential power output regards vibrations. Others in the past have said such. You highlight that if anything there is more power than needed. The energy with the motion itself would also generate mechanical vibration would it not?

As for comparing the max output of both then best to clarify what you did in this example. To achieve the very max output for the LFE you would possibly need an amp that sustains upto 1500w RMS (not PMPO) to run the BK LFE at their quoted max rating. Behringer like many other companies use "peak output" ratings so I'm not certain exactly what amp at what level is needed to achieve this.

You could increase the crossover gain to the max (via software) as this controls the output on the DSP 3000 by a hefty +12dB (approx 4x energy). Then increase the knobs on the front of the panel (increase the input signal from soundcard) to reach a point of hitting the clipping red light. See also the softwares meters for input/output. Just to point out that in doing this, it would place the DSP 3000 amp pretty much at its full limit potential it can send to the LFE. If you just increased the knobs on the front panel of the amp that won't be its max output. In doing that a user will just max the input level with the potential 0db (not +12dB) available within the DSP settings.

What we do know is that each option has if anything the ability to deliver far, too much energy a user can comfortably sustain or withstand but interesting to hear that the dBox delivers so much energy.

Just like the motion itself however a user wont run it on max output. For tactile, the objective is about the detail and in what it delivers in the various felt effects for the immersion. If anything I expect loads of people crank their tactile, even on small units seeking more energy at the expense of detail or better refinement within its operating capabilities. There seems always a desire for more energy to the point we have too much.

So what interests me more is how the dBox compares on an effects level, on options and configuring and the immersion they as options each can bring. Please continue to delve further, go down to an effects level for a tactile hobbyist this is interesting for me and I hope others too....

Have you sought after the best Simvibe profiles people have created or developed your own best efforts? You have the ability in this rig to compare so many factors for immersion and being a VR3 past owner as well gives you so much user perspective of them all.

For SSW I will soon have my own latest files finalised and shared. So I hope these can bring you added enjoyment to what dbox does deliver. What I am keen to learn is knowing the pros/cons of what each are and how if anything we can incorporate each to the full potential. Very few rigs have such a combination of high end hardware.

Full pictorial breakdown if possible and more detail on why you want to keep both options, thanks. Super exciting

 

[Magiashkii]

Wow, big LFEs feeling like a punch from a 5 year old

What about noise levels / vibrations?

a) How can you compare D-Box, just the movement without it's tactile to NLM V3 regarding noise?
The only noise is from the rig itself... the actuators are very quiet. They make even less noise the the v3

b) How can you compare D-Box tactile noise / vibrations when compared to the 4x LFE + TST you have?
the vibrations are very strong which causes the rig itself to create a little noise but still very quiet. when i crank up the LFEs they make more noise when they bottom out... so then i need to back off the power

c) What about combined operation of D-Box + D-Box tactile + tactile?
the combined operation is still very quite

I see that you have it standing directly on the floor. How much vibrations does it send to the floor? How much noise it generates? Can it be heard from other rooms next to it / below it?
my rig is on a concrete basement floor and doesn't make any noise to the rest of the house... but if this on the second floor on wood, i think it would cause too much noise from all of the tactile feedback from dbox. I would be very concerned using this system in an apartment building. Dbox is so crazy powerful, i tried for fun to crank up the engine feedback to 60 and at an idle i felt like i was going to be bounced out of the seat... I quickly dropped the slider down

Sorry for lot of questions, just there's nowhere else to get any information regarding D-Box and it's direct comparison to other systems.

I'm just trying to figure out if D-Box or possibly other motion solution would be possible to use in concrete apartment building with relatively thin walls, or if I should just forget about it straight away (I have apartments above / below me). I could employ lot of vibration mitigation systems to limit the vibration going into the floor - but I'm not sure if it's possible to kill all of it, as you describe it could be crazy strong.

What I'm also worried about is deep bass, which has a lot of energy, and could spread even across many walls. Also general noise in normal frequencies might be too much for me at some point...

Many thanks!

 

[Magiashkii]

i'll cover more info later for Mr. Latte's questions

 

[Magiashkii]

+1 on all the questions

And can I add: do you have the D-BOX 1.5" or 3" version? Is D-BOX more fun than NLV3 in VR for you? Cheers!

I have the 1.5" version 4250i and yes it's more fun and intense... you feel like you are on a track in a car with suspension

 

[Michal Burisin]

Thanks, this makes me quite optimistic!

At least the part with the D-Box operation being even more silent than NLM V3 and the noise is generated by the vibration in the rig itself.

I was worried about deep bass tones etc. spreading through the room etc. and it doesn't seems to be the case.

As you write that the combined operation is still very quiet, that is perfect.

I think if the problem is just the vibration through the floor, it's possible to solve this, possibly with these mounts https://www.avmountsonline.co.uk/instruments-and-lightweight/uu-shear-mount - could be used on multiple layers, and the put it on specialized antivibration acoustic pad https://eshop.potichu.cz/produkt/antivibracni-akusticka-podlozka-54mm/ or possibly adding this to the mix http://antivibration-systems.com/product/vibro-msv/

I'm not sure about how I would utilize D-Box tactile, I have rSeat N1 and I have designed my rig in a way that it's inner construction is eating up vibrations very much - I have reinforced it with vibration dampening plates (this cannot be removed) etc. and then this inner construction is separated from seat by additional antivibration mounts. so I would probably won't be able to benefit from the D-Box tactile very much - unless turning the D-Box to high volume.

I will either have to change the rig or skip the D-Box tactile if I ever choose to go this way, or possibly going with other, cheaper solution without tactile (PRS200) if it proves to be silent and having good response to telemetry via software.

Many thanks for info!

 

[Beef36]

.