Getting into Tactile Immersion - Help please?

[Ceolmor]

Noob enquiry here from someone seeking guidance from others who are prepared to share their experiences of tactile immersion.

I have a good 80/20 rig with a fibreglass racing bucket seat. I am getting good ffb from my wheel, but I am looking to dip my toes (or backside) into the world of tactile immersion. I do mostly Assetto Corsa with some DiRT Rally and rFactor2. Maybe also PCars2 next month.

What I'm looking for is two shakers for the seat (left and right) to give me engine, gear change, bumps and rear slippage tactile feedback. Later, I might want to extend 'simvibe' to other parts of the rig (pedals) but I want to keep it simple at this stage until I better understand what I'm doing. I've read a lot of threads, but still have a lot of questions.

Noise
I've read reports of people not using simvibe due to the noise and the shakers become expensive paperweights! Is simvibe noisy? My rig is upstairs on carpet with cushioned underlay. Can I resolve the problem completely with rubber isolators, or will there always be some noise, and how much?

Amplifier
I think this one is simple. The iNuke NU1000 DSP here seems to be the way to go. Would go for the iNuke NU3000 DSP here if that was considered necessary or advisable. Is it?

Shakers
The Buttkicker Mini LFE here would be the simplest option, as they are currently available in the UK and I can get brackets here to easily attach to the rig. But, should I be concerned about the apparent noise issue? Mr Latte has been testing here on resolving the issue, but would I be better to avoid having to do a work-around and go for a different shaker instead? How would the ADX Maximus here compare, which is also available in the UK? What are others experience of these two shakers?

Placement

It seems I have a number of options. (a) The shakers sitting on the aforementioned brackets attached to the outside of the two runners. (b) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the two brackets. (c) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the runners. (d) Shakers bolted directly to the bottom and back of the seat (which I'd prefer to avoid if possible as I don't want to be drilling holes in my seat.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on which might be the best? Maybe there is a better option I've not thought of. Wood or aluminium? Where is it best to put isolators. With these placements (except d) will I feel any left and right separation?

Software
SSW here or Sim Commander 4 here? I am thinking of trying the SSW, which is a bit cheaper and may suit my 'simple' needs. Will this give me what I am looking for?

Any advice will be gratefully appreciated. Thanks in anticipation.

 

[signman]

I had these plates made up for mounting my Advance.
Not sure I will actually be using them now though.. Mr Latte fault ;-)

I spent weeks playing with various rig design's, then when I came to the build altered the design again.
Now I've gone VR and also got my rig in an F1 position ..Tillet is laid back and my pedal's nice and high.

The beauty of the profile build is you can easily change your design.
Will post some more up to date picture's in F1 position with tactile fitted soon.

My project has been on the back burner ;-(

 

[Ceolmor]

That is one pro looking rig. Love the photo of the Buttkicker Christmas tree. And the BK brackets are brilliant.

 

[Ceolmor]

Speaker Cable
For Buttkickers, is there any advantage of pure copper speaker wire over copper covered aluminium speaker wire?

 

[Mr Latte]

I presume such is to help against interference?

Speaker cable is an area you could spend a lot of money and in this usage not find much in the way of benefits. In saying that, you can get cabling that has better shielding from interference, or from a reputable brand. Or you could buy cheap 14 AWG? on Amazon and it do pretty much fine.

I spent a LOT of time and looked into some cabling options recently for others with ideas on what I would do myself for my own final build. We looked into "Bi-Wire cabling" but discovered it is more suited to a woofer/tweeter application whereas "Multicore Cables" (nobody seems to be using) could be used to prevent multiple cable runs between the cockpit/tactile and back to the amps powering them. Bringing a much more professional level of installation.

Also included was info on audio connectors and seeking more professionalism as on most cockpits I have seen to date, they are quite simplistic or a bit lacking in this regard, well let's say they do not push boundaries. Yet people will spend hundreds upon hundreds on other hardware elements to ensure quality and performance but often tactile/audio. Seems in most cases they may not care so much about it or in doing to a high quality or standard of installation.

This link has ideas shared I would consider but may not be for everyone. Links and video are included for good cables etc. You will not find such on many rigs nor are any sold with this level of dedication placed on a professional level of audio installation. Other options are possible in using Speak-ON instead of RCA but this would further increase costs even though technically it would be better still.

 

[Ceolmor]

I thought I had seen all your threads on tactile immersion, but I missed this one Buttkicker advice Thanks.

 

[Ceolmor]

#1 - THE SHOPPING LIST

Based on the excellent and detailed advice I received from @Mr Latte I have eventually decided upon what I am doing to add Tactile Immersion to my 80/20 rig.

I have ordered and received the following items:

1x Buttkicker Advance

This will attach to two 80/20 aluminium profiles to be fitted under the seat.


1x Behringer iNUKE NU1000DSP

Amp to power the Buttkicker


1x Twin XLR to mini 3.5mm jack lead

To connect the PC soundcard to the amp


1x Neutrik NL2FX 2-Pole Connector

To connect the speaker wire to the amp


15m Pure copper 14 gauge speaker wire

To take the signal from amp to Buttkicker. Better quality than the copper clad aluminium speaker wire.


8x Buttkicker RI-4 rubber isolators (2" x 1")

To fit between the section of the rig that holds the seat and the main rig. These are quite spongy.


1 large sheet of 18mm MDF

To create a platform between the main rig and the floor, to help reduce vibration going into the upstairs room floor.

1 roll of 3mm rubber sheeting

To glue to the MDF sheet.

24x Penn Elcom rubber feet (2 1/2" x 1")

To act as isolators between the main rig and the top of the mdf/rubber platform and again between the underside of the same platform and the floor. These are very firm compared to the Buttkicker isolators, but a lot cheaper.

32sq feet Easimat

Gym floor style foam matting to sit on the carpet underneath the rig and platform. Again to reduce vibration going into the floor.

An assortment of bolts, nuts, washers, screws and 80/20 fittings
[No image here, I'm only allowed 10]
To hold everything together, hopefully in the right place!

In the next thrilling installment, "Making the Platform"

My thanks to @Mr Latte for all his help and advice.

 

[Mr Chip]

Nice Ceolmor - Keep is updated

 

[Ceolmor]

#2 - MAKING THE PLATFORM

The two main 80/20 aluminium profiles were over 1800mm long. As the rig has to sit on the mdf/rubber platform, this was going to make for a very big platform. So I got a mate to cut off 310mm from the end of each profile with his bench saw. The off cuts will fit under the seat to hold the Buttkicker.

I bought a large sheet of 18mm mdf from the local DIY store (B&Q) and used their free cutting service to get a board 1500mm x 800mm. I cut out a hole in the mdf to create a space for the Buttkicker to sit in, as it needs the clearance under the seat.

The hole is big enough to take two Buttkicker Advances side by side on separate mounts to create a stereo effect in the future. It will also allow the Buttkicker/s to move fore and aft under the seat.

I also created holes in the board at the four corners to fix the rig to the platform and near the pedals to enable cables to pass through the board.

Next, I used spray contact adhesive to stick the 3mm rubber sheet to the top of the board, wrap over the edges and onto the underside. Both sides are completely covered in the rubber sheet so that this will be between all isolators and the mdf. (Warning: the 3mm rubber sheet didn't much like bending 90 degrees at the edges to wrap underneath, so it has not stuck well at this point, if at all.)

I will fix 12 Penn Elcom rubber feet under the platform in 3 rows of 4, but will do this after I have attached the bottom of the rig to the top of the platform so I can ensure they sit under the main pressue points. This might be a bit overkill, but there is a lot of weight in the rig with me sitting on it and I am anxious to avoid the mdf sagging, which would make it all look 'cheap.'

Next episode - "Attaching the Rig to the Platform"

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, gotta say big thanks for sharing in these posts as personally find it fascinating seeing things come together. Enjoyed reading how you've already planned in cutting out the hole prepped for future upgrades and giving plenty of thought to the whole process.

Good to highlight the issue with the rubber. Is it sticking to the main flat surface okay but just an issue with the edge (two right angle bends over the 18mm depth of the MDF)? What are you thinking of doing?

Would possibly cutting the bottom curve to remove any sag so it's just sticking to the 18mm depth or trim the 18mm side off and just paint it?

Also curious if using an old shirt or cloth and apply some heat from an iron (or heat gun) along the edge would help it to bond? Take care though as I don't want to suggest something and make it worse.

 

[Ceolmor]

The rubber at the edge looks a bit like in the diagram below, with the grey area the gap. I suspect my technic wasn't quite correct, as I'd never attempted anything like this before.

I had a full length cut off board of mdf clamped to it overnight, but within a few minutes of releasing the clamp, the rubber had separated from the edges again. The adhesive just isn't strong enough to hold it.

I could try an iron, but I put the adhesive on almost a week ago, and if I melt the rubber I will be upset.

Aesthetically it looks fine. Well, quite good actually. So, unless the rubber needs to be stuck to the edges for the platform to properly do it's job, I am minded to leave it as is.

 

[Mr Latte]

Righteo, this is more cosmetic than anything else.
An alternative is going with rubber or PVC type trim edging.

What are your thoughts on speaker cabling for underneath?

 

[Ceolmor]

I will probably go with a loose speaker wire to the Buttkicker at this stage. I could future proof it by clipping numerous wires underneath for 4+ shakers, but chances are I will need to change something at some point anyway.

 

[Ceolmor]

#3 - ATTACHING THE RIG TO THE PLATFORM

12 Penn-Elcom 21/2"x1" rubber feet are fitted to the underside of the mdf/rubber platform. 8 are attached by screws. Then 1 each at the four corners are attached with a thread which runs through a hole in the platform itself to secure the rig to the platform, as below:

© @Mr Latte

There are then 12 rubber feet attached to the 80/20 aluminium profiles so that the rig sits on the platform, secured at the 4 corners.

Coming soon "Adding the Buttkicker."

 

[Ceolmor]

#4 - ADDING THE BUTTKICKER

I cut and laid the gym floor style foam mats on the upstairs room carpet. (Warning: On carpet the foam mats have a tendancy to 'creep' a little. Shouldn't be a problem when the weight of the rig goes onto them.)

I then moved the platform and base of the rig upstairs and into position. I re-built the steering wheel, shifter and monitor sections of the rig. Lot of sweating going on at this point.

I bolted the Buttkicker Advance to the underside of two 80/20 aluminium profiles that were added to the seat section of the rig which holds the racing seat.

The seat section, holding the seat and Buttkicker, was then attached to the main rig with bolts running through 8 Buttkicker RI-4 isolators, 2 at each corner. I placed 50mm diameter washer at the top and bottom of each isolator to better spread the load. Halfway through, it looked as below

It can be seen better in the following diagram.

© @Mr Latte

The Buttkicker now sits neatly upside down just under the seat in the hole in the mdf/rubber platform.

So, that's the build almost complete.

Just got to wire up the Buttkicker, download the software, configure everything and fire her up!

Next episode - "Setup and First Impressions"

 

[Mr Latte]

Really excellent work. Laughing at my previously sent/shared "Ms Paint" skills for ideas to consider.

Can you show us more of some closups for the seat and isolators each side?

Im curious if you feel any slight movement in the seat with the Buttkicker isolators being softer.
Although perhaps going with 8 instead of 4 and the usage of the washers may help prevent this? My own thoughts were that such would help maintain the tactile energy better in a seat.

Looks like things turned out rather well and eager for you to get on with some testing and share your thoughts.

Thank you for placing confidence in some of the things shared.

 

[Ceolmor]

#5 - SETUP & FIRST IMPRESSIONS

I connected the speaker wire to the Neutrik connector.

(Warning: Make sure to line up the little notches on the inner middle piece with the notches in the rear cover. I didn't. The connector works, but it ain't never gonna ever unscrew again!)

I connected the PC green output to the XLR amp inputs and the amp output to the Buttkicker.

I also connected the usb socket (annoyingly on the front of the amp) to the PC. I downloaded the Behringer DSP software.

I will not give a blow by blow account of what I did to get everything working, as it won't help anyone. After aimlessly pressing lots of buttons I eventually got a signal to the Buttkicker.

I have gone with Sim Shakers Wheel software

to run the Buttkicker at this stage as it is cheaper and simpler for my current one shaker setup.

Last night I did a brief test. Lotus 49 at Brands Hatch in Asseto Corsa. Seemed OK, but a little underwhelming. Tonight, I had the benefit of considerable assistance from @Mr Latte in understanding and setting up properly the iNuke amp, the onboard soundcard and the Sim Shakers Wheel software.

Then back into the Lotus 49.

After only half an hour of playing with this, I am satisfied that adding tactile immersion to my rig was the right decision. I am getting lots of feel and sensation from the seat. Although there is a temptation to turn everything up, it seems to me that the trick is to get the tactile feedback from the seat to compliment the force feedback from the wheel, so they are balanced and neither overpowers the other.

When I started this thread a month ago, my brief was:

• Engine, gear change, bumps & slippage feedback in the seat
  

• Tactile immersion to compliment my wheel and VR
  
• A setup that can be expanded in the future
  
• No vibration through the upstairs wooden floorboards
  

It delivers on all of these. And the best bit is that when I asked my wife if any noise or vibration from my rig disturbed her downstairs, she replied that it was no noisier than usual.

Finally, my thanks to @Mr Latte for his advice, encouragement, patience and guidance throughout this process. Quite literally, without him none of this would have been possible.

Now, about that shaker for the pedals .....................

 

[signman]

Great job..enjoyed your voyage.

 

[Mr Latte]

Welcome to enjoying tactile!!!

Look forward to another meet up on skype.
Now we can do some comparisons with the installation and try to optimise what feels best. Also to look into SSW and get some effects created that really make this BK Advance feel good. I've been seeking testers for my own study with "effects creation" for SSW. So, if your willing appreciate any feedback/tests you can do.

Two queries I have:

• I am curious how hard you can drive this to a point the vibrations are still not an issue?
• Ideas for the pedal section, your opinions

How do you think a pedal platform would feel if isolated by the same or similar method with BK isolators used on the seat. With the perspective of wanting to maintain the tactile energy in the pedal plate section. Yet achieving this and to avoid any compression sagging when you apply full load on the brake.

Personally, I am curious if building similar isolation support for the pedal section how the BK rubber isolators would compare to the much harder ones you used on the actual base.

As always look forward to your feedback and opinions.

 

[Ceolmor]

Two queries I have:

• I am curious how hard you can drive this to a point the vibrations are still not an issue?
• Ideas for the pedal section, your opinions

No 1 is easy. When my wife starts shouting at me, I'm driving the BK too hard.

No 2. The inks not dry on the cheques for the last lot of equipment and already we are talking pedal section. However, I redesigned the pedal section when I rebuilt the rig with adding a shaker in mind. I think there are a number of possibilities. I'll let you know my thoughts.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay just been through your PM stuff.

My query/concern above was if you had sufficient isolation and could enjoy using the rig without annoying the wife downstairs? If you wanted, even more, isolation then a layer of one of the popular sound deadening materials, previously shared could be placed under the rubber tiles. For example, this won't raise the height of the cockpit base like having doubled up isolators would.

Will help take you through effects in SSW and making use of that iNuke amps features with some PEQ control. You will discover how we can add more detail to the 60-100Hz range sensation the BK Advance offers in normal operation. Also boost/tweak the lower frequencies to your preference changing the character of your BK Advance to your taste or requirement.

As seen below I am still working on building effects for SSW that will operate well on a broad range of units. I can see what frequencies effects use and then build these to use frequencies that suit the purpose of the effect. By seeing/knowing the exact frequencies of the individual effects then we can make good use of the PEQ features on the iNuke to optimise a users preference or mood when running their tactile.

We have as I have stated several times on the forums recently, more possibilities and better control in creating a suitable effect with .wav files with SSW than Simvibe offers with its tone generation controls.

Left/ Bump Example:

*Mine above is created to use known/tested peak performance Hz of most midrange tactile units.