tactile feedback with LFEs

[Magiashkii]

Just wanted to share my journey with adding tactile feedback to my existing 8020 rig.

I started down this road by following a thread posted by Mr. Latte. We spoke about the pros and cons and what would work best. The rig i have now has gone through many changes as i wanted a better experience while sim racing. I will have to dig up pictures of my home built rig so you can see the progression that got me to this point. It has been a really fun transition to go from a simple rig to something that has become a beast with help from many members in the community. Tactile feedback was the next plan to add another level of immersion and i was very lucky to find Mr. Latte for this new project. His knowledge base is just simply amazing and i can't thank him enough. Here are some starting pictures and i will be uploading more as i go through the build. Once it's built, i will provide feedback to hopefully help others in the community
four LFEs ready to do battle in chassis mode

more to come this week...

 

[HugoB]

The build has changed again... I ended up selling the next level v3 and going to a full motion setup

Interesting decision! Did the V3 not play good with the GS-4, or was the V3 generally not up to your liking?
What full motion are you using now? Does it give you more immersion?

And I have the same question as Balroque about the move from 160 to 80... as I’m getting the Sim-Lab P1 which has the very high rails.

Thanks for your time!

 

[Mr Latte]

The build has changed again... I ended up selling the next level v3 and going to a full motion setup

Look forward to see and learn more, youve had lots of great hardware experiences.
Curious if you have went SimX or D-Box for motion? Any views if the tactile gets lost a bit with full motion or compliment each other?

 

[Magiashkii]

3 bass shakers mounted in different locations for the seat are great. The LFEs were used for all road and chassis tactical feedback. The Clarks was used for engine and shifting feedback only. The feedback is much better when separating the two types without loosing clarity. I switched from the 160mmX80mm to the smaller 80mmX40mm due to the rig just being too stiff. It had a very unnatural and disconnected feel to it even with the OSW wheel. Everything seemed to be absorbed so the whole rig just felt dead. It was a huge improvement once I switched back to the smaller 8020 profile. I ended up getting a dbox for the motion upgrade

 

[Balroque]

I switched from the 160mmX80mm to the smaller 80mmX40mm due to the rig just being too stiff. It had a very unnatural and disconnected feel to it even with the OSW wheel. Everything seemed to be absorbed so the whole rig just felt dead. It was a huge improvement once I switched back to the smaller 8020 profile. I ended up getting a dbox for the motion upgrade

This is quite interesting statement. Usually everyone's mantra is to get rig as stiff as possible and avoid all flexibility. I have to say 80160 is probably even beyond overkill. Anyway now you made me doubt if to build 40160 or 4080 main frame . The benefits would be obvious, less weight and with this going less cost for extrusion itself and shipping fee. More easy to upgrade to motion, lower profile .. etc. Will be great to get some more inputs on that

 

[HugoB]

3 bass shakers mounted in different locations for the seat are great. The LFEs were used for all road and chassis tactical feedback. The Clarks was used for engine and shifting feedback only. The feedback is much better when separating the two types without loosing clarity. I switched from the 160mmX80mm to the smaller 80mmX40mm due to the rig just being too stiff. It had a very unnatural and disconnected feel to it even with the OSW wheel. Everything seemed to be absorbed so the whole rig just felt dead. It was a huge improvement once I switched back to the smaller 8020 profile. I ended up getting a dbox for the motion upgrade

Wow, that's a very interesting perspective, I would never have thought a rig could be too stiff! Makes me wonder about the P1 I'm about to order, not sure how wide those side panels are, but reports state the rig is solid like a granite rock... Guess I'll have to see for myself if I like it.

You seem to go in the opposite direction most people go concerning motion... I've only been hearing seat shaker is the best for sim racing, full motion is for flight sim? How would you describe the difference, upgrading from V3 to D-Box? I know a lot of high end (five figure) rigs use D-Box. Does it give better immersion in VR?

 

[Magiashkii]

You are right.... The 160mmx80mm was overkill and it wasn't even the lighter version of the profile. Everything flexes and isn't rock solid in a real car. I think the the light version of the 160mmX40mm would be much better then the 160mmx80mm that I used in my previous build. As far a full motion used for flight sims only... Dbox has really transformed the driving experience since it adds motion and tactile into one package. Both the v3 and dbox are great motion options. My only warning is that once you go any motion whether it's a seat mover or a chassis mover... There is no going back to a static rig EVER. Both options are absolutely amazing. Neither will make you faster but the immersion is just over the top.

 

[Michal Burisin]

You are right.... The 160mmx80mm was overkill and it wasn't even the lighter version of the profile. Everything flexes and isn't rock solid in a real car. I think the the light version of the 160mmX40mm would be much better then the 160mmx80mm that I used in my previous build. As far a full motion used for flight sims only... Dbox has really transformed the driving experience since it adds motion and tactile into one package. Both the v3 and dbox are great motion options. My only warning is that once you go any motion whether it's a seat mover or a chassis mover... There is no going back to a static rig EVER. Both options are absolutely amazing. Neither will make you faster but the immersion is just over the top.

Great rig!

Did you keep tactile for chassis with D-Box and are using both, or you use just D-Box now?

 

[Magiashkii]

I have both the tactile and dbox running together. Most have said it's not necessary but I'm trying to get the best of both and currently just experimenting now

 

[Mr Latte]

I have both the tactile and dbox running together. Most have said it's not necessary but I'm trying to get the best of both and currently just experimenting now

Id love to see a comparison taking into account the D-Box own tactile options and how it works or feels. Not just a quality comparison for what you can achieve with your tactile and SSW/Simvibe but also the actual effects how they compare?

SSW keeps improving as does what we can get out of it with continued creating and testing of new effect files. While not many seem active in creating their own effects. I've personally changed my approach from earlier attempts in patching parts of waveforms together and these often being much too elaborate.

So with continued self-testing and learning, have moved to a better approach switching to octaves and additional harmonics of the fundamental frequency tone. This way the combined tones are much neater and better flowing.

Great motion with powerful tactile should be rather awesome.
Did you sell the GS4 or keep it?

 

[Magiashkii]

Sure I'd be glad to give you feedback as I fine tune. I still have the gs4... It's such an amazing piece of hardware. I would only sell it when the gs5 comes out and if it performs better then the gs4

 

[Mr Latte]

Sure I'd be glad to give you feedback as I fine tune. I still have the gs4... It's such an amazing piece of hardware. I would only sell it when the gs5 comes out and if it performs better then the gs4

So.....high-end tactile, high-end g-force based motion, high-end 4dof motion combined with high-end control inputs and topped off with VR.

$mile$

Is it a reasonable question to ask, does it all become too much for the body/mind to take in?
Should be awesome all the same...

 

[Magiashkii]

Still doing some testing to fine tune but everything working together in VR is amazing so far. I'll post some pictures soon of the setup that includes 4 LFEs, 1 Clark TS209, and Dbox 4250i. I have found its like adding syrup on top of already amazing pancakes... It only gets better

 

[Mr Latte]

Still doing some testing to fine tune but everything working together in VR is amazing so far. I'll post some pictures soon of the setup that includes 4 LFEs, 1 Clark TS209, and Dbox 4250i. I have found its like adding syrup on top of already amazing pancakes... It only gets better

lol, I need a flight, coffees on me

 

[Magiashkii]

I have some initial testing done... What information are you looking for on tactile feedback on bass shakers versus dbox

 

[Mr Latte]

I have some initial testing done... What information are you looking for on tactile feedback on bass shakers versus dbox

Perhaps, wait till I have the latest files ready, these are a good step up from what you may of experienced with the older sets back in November. I would like your views on these with the hardware you have but then how that compares to what D-Box motion brings in tactile immersion.

Regards D-Box tactile, nowhere have I seen where it has been broken down in detail on what it offers, how it compares to SSW or Simvibe. Advantages Vs disadvantages. I know it can support upto 100Hz but how does it perform in comparison to the energy of a large Buttkicker or the detailing of a TST?

From my view/experience SSW in particular with it using waveforms (.wav) brings so much potential to how effects can be represented in feel or sensation. These can be created to bring much more specific detail within their complexity than using say "tone generation" features that Simvibe uses. Yet by design bring the user more ability to shape the character/sensation of the effect. From this perspective what does D-Box bring, I assume nothing other than perhaps un editable effect files and control mainly for their intensity or sensitivity. Which effects perform well, which not so well, what effects does D-Boxe bring those other solutions may not? Like I shared, nobody or no racing channel has even come close to offering an interesting look into this.

I understand D-Box motion has simple sliders but some stated having tactile in operation can reduce the motion in some way? More detail on this would also be welcomed in what shortcomings it has. Most D-Box users seem to maybe only add a single Buttkicker but as you have both options, how far can we combine both options? Are some effects via D-Box worth having and using with SSW or Simvibe?

Basically, if D-Box is considered to be by many as one of the best motion options. How and what needs to be done on such a cockpit to bring to this the best tactile experience also?

 

[Magiashkii]

Let me get some screen shots of the software today so we can cover the game center software that comes with dbox

 

[Magiashkii]

Current setup now... Cable management soon

 

[Magiashkii]

After extensive testing with dbox and the bass shakers... I have found that they complement each other. Dbox just isn't a full frame mover but it also has tactile feedback on a whole other level. It can feel like it's going to shake the entire rig to bits and can be down right scary. The bass shakers are like a getting punched by a 5 year old verses dbox is more like getting punched by a pro boxer. The energy is almost exponential. A 6 point movement on a scale of 1 to 60 in the dbox software (when starting at the stock setting of 40) is suppose to be double the energy output... Which is a huge jump. I find that with the blending of the base shakers and dbox there is a very clear feel to each car and is worth keeping on the rig. I had thought initially I would be taking it off but it's absolutely staying on

 

[Michal Burisin]

After extensive testing with dbox and the bass shakers... I have found that they complement each other. Dbox just isn't a full frame mover but it also has tactile feedback on a whole other level. It can feel like it's going to shake the entire rig to bits and can be down right scary. The bass shakers are like a getting punched by a 5 year old verses dbox is more like getting punched by a pro boxer. The energy is almost exponential. A 6 point movement on a scale of 1 to 60 in the dbox software (when starting at the stock setting of 40) is suppose to be double the energy output... Which is a huge jump. I find that with the blending of the base shakers and dbox there is a very clear feel to each car and is worth keeping on the rig. I had thought initially I would be taking it off but it's absolutely staying on

Wow, big LFEs feeling like a punch from a 5 year old

What about noise levels / vibrations?

a) How can you compare D-Box, just the movement without it's tactile to NLM V3 regarding noise?

b) How can you compare D-Box tactile noise / vibrations when compared to the 4x LFE + TST you have?

c) What about combined operation of D-Box + D-Box tactile + tactile?

I see that you have it standing directly on the floor. How much vibrations does it send to the floor? How much noise it generates? Can it be heard from other rooms next to it / below it?

Sorry for lot of questions, just there's nowhere else to get any information regarding D-Box and it's direct comparison to other systems.

I'm just trying to figure out if D-Box or possibly other motion solution would be possible to use in concrete apartment building with relatively thin walls, or if I should just forget about it straight away (I have apartments above / below me). I could employ lot of vibration mitigation systems to limit the vibration going into the floor - but I'm not sure if it's possible to kill all of it, as you describe it could be crazy strong.

What I'm also worried about is deep bass, which has a lot of energy, and could spread even across many walls. Also general noise in normal frequencies might be too much for me at some point...

Many thanks!

 

[HugoB]

Wow, big LFEs feeling like a punch from a 5 year old

What about noise levels / vibrations?

a) How can you compare D-Box, just the movement without it's tactile to NLM V3 regarding noise?

b) How can you compare D-Box tactile noise / vibrations when compared to the 4x LFE + TST you have?

c) What about combined operation of D-Box + D-Box tactile + tactile?

I see that you have it standing directly on the floor. How much vibrations does it send to the floor? How much noise it generates? Can it be heard from other rooms next to it / below it?

Sorry for lot of questions, just there's nowhere else to get any information regarding D-Box and it's direct comparison to other systems.

I'm just trying to figure out if D-Box or possibly other motion solution would be possible to use in concrete apartment building with relatively thin walls, or if I should just forget about it straight away (I have apartments above / below me). I could employ lot of vibration mitigation systems to limit the vibration going into the floor - but I'm not sure if it's possible to kill all of it, as you describe it could be crazy strong.

What I'm also worried about is deep bass, which has a lot of energy, and could spread even across many walls. Also general noise in normal frequencies might be too much for me at some point...

Many thanks!

+1 on all the questions

And can I add: do you have the D-BOX 1.5" or 3" version? Is D-BOX more fun than NLV3 in VR for you? Cheers!