New Tactile Hardware 2023 / 2024

[Mr Latte]

Intro
It has been a while since I did a thread on tactile here...
Appears we have new hardware options to consider and that Simhub also has had improvements with its support for tactile immersion.

In recent times we are also seeing a current trend for tactile/haptics in pedals.


Thread Goals/Perspective
To discover ways towards affordable and improved tactile immersion. Offering in-depth comparison between these newest and possible other hardware options.

To determine which may be best suited to particular users. Which offer more regards effects sensations and detailing.

To seek performance benefits, improvements in effects felt character, or offering more control towards different user preferences.


New Exciter Products
It's not very often new products arrive with this type of hardware, so it is interesting to take a look at these new affordable options.

I am showcasing two interesting and recently released tactile exciter products that I have not yet seen much about.

With so little information about these new models I am curious to determine how they perform and potentially improve over the current best models we have used in the past.



Parts Express (USA/Canada) has a wide range of Dayton Exciters but currently I have only seen the "Excite" models available from European based store Sound Imports.

Links provided below for each product.

Dayton Audio EX32VBDS-4​

Info​

Data​

​

Xcite Xtreme XT32-4 All-round Sound Exciter​

Info​

Data​

SIMAGIC - Haptic Pedal Reactor
Credit to Simagic for bringing a complete solution that simplifies things and does so at an attractive price. Also for making it usable on many makes/models of pedals. These are reasons why this unit has attracted so much recent attention.

It appears, already in a short period of time, to have found a wide following. This combined with people making available 3D printed mods/attachments so it can be installed for various models of pedals.


Haptic Controller / Power Supply / Haptic Reactor

What's The Full Story?
Several popular sim YouTubers have promoted this product. Impressions have in general been good and it's likely some people here may already own these by now.

I know many of you will have seen videos or are well aware of what this unit is but I think it needs looked at in more detail and interesting to compare with other options.

Specifications
Not all specs are listed, we see in the software the device is targeting punchy feeling frequencies. Yet with this, it appears to have a much lower operating range in frequency response to what exciters can offer.

*Software Controlled Frequency Range
10Hz - 50Hz





SIM PRO Software
Nice appearance and easy to use, this will be excellent for beginners or those that only want to apply basic effects. It will incorporate with their own hardware and enable a user to control haptics for pedals/handbrake.



A recent update did make the HPR also compatible with Simhub.
Most reading will be aware as it is the most popular and best "tone generation" software available. So the owner can have an alternative choice to control the HPR devices or to use the official Sim Pro software but more on that later.


Simagic Haptic Controller
Both software options enable 10Hz-50Hz frequency response for effects.
Both software options share a similar motor based restriction.

Connecting the HPR device to Simhub with the official "Simagic Haptic Controller" lets a user configure within Simhub via the "Shakeit Motors" mode.

*Additional features / improvements or fixes may be needed and can come in updates.

Important Difference No.1
The HPR is not the same as common rotational rumble motors with offset weights. Those are often the same used from console controllers. Below is the official video to highlight this HPR product being more powerful and different in design in how it operates.



Simagic Official Explanation

 

[Mr Latte]

Upon first impressions and learning of the HPR unit from Simagic.
I considered it may be similar in size to a Tamiya RC cars motor.

The general assumption seemed to be it used a typical motor, which we know now is not the case. It is smaller than what I and certainly others may assume.
Yet it appears to operate much better than basic rumble motors with nice styling, plenty of recommendations and easy to setup all at a reasonable price.


Online Reviews
One of the more useful and detailed reviews I seen about its internals and operation was from Dan Suzuki. I believe he was the first to illustrate using the HPR unit but having it powered by an audio amplifier and not just the official controller and power supply.

In doing this, then it makes a potential BIG difference from the perspective of Simhub possibilities. Yes, you can use the HPR via Simhub with the official controller but when doing so.

We then use a different mode in Simhub as one is for configuring "Motors" and the other is for configuring "Audio Devices".

This was not fully highlighted and most people may not be aware of the differences. I will cover this below but here are his excellent videos.


Video 1

@12:40


Video 2

@11:20


So a quick recap -

Haptic Controller
1 x Controller & PSU Supports up to 3x HPR units on Pedals.


Simagic TBRS handbrake can also support an additional HPR unit.
Simhub can also support product
Simhub may offer or have more effects than SIM PRO software.

* 10Hz - 50Hz frequency response
* Magnet - moving weight operation
* Static frequency only


Important Difference No.2
What is not fully being explained or showcased on reviews I have watched so far needs to be highlighted. Below I will illustrate this relevant factor that needs the HPR to be tested, in both scenarios and also to the new exciters I am sharing in this thread.


Official Connection Method
Using The Haptic Controller & Power Supply

Simhub "Shakeit Motors" - Restriction
HPR is restricted like other motor solutions to operate with a static or fixed frequency. So if you apply multiple effects to a unit or pedal. Then all the effects will use that same frequency.

This is for both SIM PRO software configuration but also when connecting to Simhub and configuring it via "Shakeit Motors".



Unofficial Connection Method
Using A Mini Amplifier / Soundcard

Simhub "Shakeit For Bass Shakers" - Benefits
This mode in Simhub is for configuring a soundcard device. When applied, this option offers more controls and settings for effects.

* Not restricted to a static frequency operation.
* More controls available
* Apply custom made multi-layer effects

What we need to determine is while it is possible to use the HPR in this mode via a soundcard/amplifer. In doing this we are making it operate in a similar manner to tactile transducers or exciters.



Interesting Findings
In one of the videos Daniel highlighted that the units uses a weight with an electrical coil magnet which is similar to a BK unit and weighted piston.

So possibly in someway similar to a Buttkicker or Earthquake model?
If so, these can give a punch/slam or on/off operational character when moving a weight within a container? Potentially meaning why it then could have less finesse in how it delivers its haptics?

He even commented that the "Simucube Haptic Pedal" didn't feel that much different but that it perhaps felt smoother and I wonder if this is part of the reason for that?

The combination of the unit tuned for punchy frequencies, it only using a fixed frequency within that range and its method of operation.

These factors might showcase some of its potential operational characteristics and with this possible limitations when it comes to trying to apply or enjoy certain types of effects.


Queries / Concerns / Testing
* How well does it operate with producing varying frequencies?
* Can it cope with effects that offer Base/High operation?
* What is a suitable or safe amplifier to use?
* Which amp settings could be recommended?
* Does the HPR work with higher than 50Hz in this mode?
* Could the unit overheat if operated this unofficial way?
* What are the results from all above and longterm usage?

 

[Mr Latte]

HPR - Restricted Frequency Response
If the unit is indeed limited at producing faster/higher frequencies. The SIM PRO software and Simhub "Shakeit Motors" enables only upto 50Hz which is not that high in tactile terms.


Effects Limitations
Did some of you notice in reviews the person stating that some effects did not just seem to feel right or suited to their own preferences. So they disable them , this is a key area that needs examined.

The points I am highlighting for the units operational character is one of the possible reasons for this, even if using the official Haptic Controller with Simhub. While that may offer more effects to apply, it is still limited with how the HPR operates with static or fixed frequencies.

Take a moment, compare the two settings/options Simhub has for most types of effects between each mode. "Shakeit Motors" & "Shakeit For Bass Shaker"





Effects Creation / Experimenting
Someone that has experience with making effects. The same Simagic HPR device could potentially enable better effects to be created when using a soundcard/amp and treating it like a typical transducer rather than have only a fixed frequency used for its operation.

Going back to Daniel mentioning that the strength of the unit can be too much and based on it operating in the on/off punch type operation. I would at this point (prior to testing) say we could possibly control that better with more advanced layering of effects/frequencies but only possible with the amp/soundcard method.


Stay tuned.....
We do not even know yet how well these new exciters compare to the HPR.
Additionally, I am not even certain yet that the HPR unit will function well enough when trying to use it in the same way as a transducer.

 

[Mr Latte]

Product Showcase / Comparison 1

 

[Mr Latte]

Product Showcase / Comparison 2

Simagic Haptic Pedal Reactor has now arrived as well....
Lets do the first ever comparison (I am aware of) for these new tactile products.

Very nice design and build for the HPR but I have to say I was rather surprised by how small it actually is.

Here it is for reference to the other new contenders and even a toilet roll, lol...




This may help get an idea also of how much bigger the EX32VBDS unit is to the typical exciters. Its diameter is also similar to a medium sized mug.





I think we may need to improve the stock mounting solution for the BDS-4 . While not shown in this image below it's very small attachment in diameter for the size of the unit if being installed vertically.




Early Thoughts / Pre Testing
I am more intrigued at the moment with the larger unit that it may offer more low/mid bass within the frequency ranges we use alot for effects.

Will this new unit offer improved detail starting around the @60hz range were we find many budget units or even BK models start to drop off more.

Can it offer improved operation as well in its audible output within the 100-200Hz for applying 2nd or 3rd harmonics in effects creation, mmm and how much better are they with general audio?


Hopeful
If we have better lower/mid bass than current exciters but with this, also the full range abilities an exciter usually brings. We may actually have here a unit that can let us achieve something that hasn't really been possible before?

 

[Mr Latte]

HPR Suitable Amps?
Their is nothing in any manual or shipped with the unit to help partner the unit with an amplifier. So this method is clearly d.i.y for those considering using it that way.

The amp that Daniel showed in one of his videos was a model I had mentioned several years ago for budget transducers/exciters. This is the Nobsound NS01G PRO.

See Here



As this amplifier also acts as a USB soundcard it will not need a separate soundcard to operate. This helps keep costs down and the user simply selects the device within Simhub configuration. Improved performance can be found with a decent soundcard but more on this below.

This little amp could potentially power two units (Amp 2x50W). I cannot yet determine how reliable or how well this combination will work. Just offering a possible option but not responsible for those who want to try!

An alternative to power upto 4x HPR units (3x Pedals 1x Shifter)
would be the Nobsound M4 mini amplifier which I purchased and shared in May 2020 on the forums as an ideal amp for budget exciters. It will need a soundcard to connect to PC for Simhub.

See Here

 

[Mr Latte]

Soundcards
Regards soundcards potentially used for the HPR and with exciters or transducers.

To make things simple, having used/tested a lot of different soundcards over the last 2-3 years. If wanting or needing one recommended. This is the best performing budget priced soundcard I am aware of.

See Here




The Startech 7.1 model performs better than many other models that may get shown/recommended alot by people. I did various tests of cards with readings and taken after 3 runs as Simhub will not always output an identical response.

If we look closely at the graphs but in general we see improved dB and increased surrounding frequencies to the centre value being applied with the Startech card. As indicated on diagram "C" it also outputs a similar level at 70% volume to a popular choice of soundcard at 100% volume.

So prior to amplification, the potential of @30% variation in soundcard output levels between different cards makes a difference to the felt sensation.

To help illustrate this better
Set an effect on your own setup with Simhub global volume at @60-70% and then compare that to 100%. It makes quite a difference to the felt sensation right? That is a similar amount of dB you feel, to what we are talking about between different soundcards.

This is one example, as a reason for people even with similar transducers / amplifiers and installations. They may find trying to use or sharing other peoples effects and settings with effects or equipment will not always be successful. As on one persons setup it may be too weak yet on the other too harsh.

It deserves to be highlighted as it is an area that often gets overlooked in tactile and some will just rely with onboard audio which also may not be that great.




Some of the budget cards I tested a good while ago also showed what looked like harmonic distortion or interference. This one below is maybe widely used but I would avoid.



So take note that not all soundcards or onboard audio are equal, even if it is less important with budget tactile transducers/exciters. With the more expensive units or those seeking to power the largest Buttkicker / Earthquake models.

It then makes a lot of sense to use a better soundcard and a model that also appears to have less bass roll-off of low frequencies.

 

[worms14]

Is the name of the female plug known to connect the HPR to it? Don't want to spoil the original cable to connect to the amplifier, I prefer to sow what I buy or make.

 

[Mr Latte]

Is the name of the female plug known to connect the HPR to it? Don't want to spoil the original cable to connect to the amplifier, I prefer to sow what I buy or make.

Below should help....

While Daniel showed a cable connector from the reactor socket to the amplifier in one of the videos. He used a rather short (10cm) looking cable solution like this one below in his example.



It might be better to have a longer cable that connects to the 2.5mm barrel socket from the reactor.

Something like This might be a better option allowing the amp to be placed somewhere better? We want the FEMALE version.

Specification Of This Particular Cable:
5.5mm x 2.1 mm DC power supply male repair cable is widely used for worn or damaged power cords, such as 12V 24V DC power supply

16AWG DC cable - Double 1.5mm² copper wire, thicker wire diameter than 18AWG, allowing higher current equipment to pass

The DC power cord is 1m long (about 3FT), which is enough to complete most projects. It can also be cut as required. The double-layer PVC insulation layer is safer and corrosion-resistant. It can also be bent as needed and is very flexible.

A user could insert the bare cable ends into the amps speaker terminals or use banana plugs to the amps connectors as Daniel commented.

 

[Mr Latte]

* KEPT FREE FOR FUTURE

 

[Mr Latte]

My Views On Tactile
I would say that yes, simple tactile can offer enough immersion for a lot of people and those content with basic tactile effects. I am highlighting here also my own perspective and I seek much better than entry level or average levels of tactile immersion, instead to go beyond that.

Different approaches and user expectations will therefore possibly bring pros/cons based on the users goals, philosophy or ideas and preferences in how they want to build or apply tactile effects.

What you as a user decide to do is your choice but I will try to cover some factors that are relevant to how/why I am focused on these new exciters and what they may bring to further effects potential with tactile.


My Own Approach
I am hoping that this new model will bridge a gap in that it offers a bit more power than the exciters that people have already installed in the past. I believe it could open the door for some interesting achievements with multiple units installed to a seat and increase the potential with advanced effects multilayering.


Thinking Differently
I introduced this approach several years ago with exciters and how they can be combined with other units. With more experimenting, gradually we keep learning how to develop better effects.

Such effects created with a different approach, that can utilise multiple units, and can also use specific units for specific effects elements or body regions. This can give us more options in developing effects in how they are represented or felt by the user.

Having more performance potential and more control as well as more freedom in effects creation are the primary benefits.

Therefore unlike the traditional method, it does not always rely on a "single unit" to be responsible for generating "all frequencies" or indeed "all the active effects" placed on that individual channel.

So while exciters can be used on their own in traditional ways, I will cover that and the limitations I see but will also offer my own usage scenario ideas too.


Back To The Focus
The focus here however is to determine how these new models improve over the current options in performance. Also how they differ to one another.

Yet do not be surprised If I highlight along the way, the idea that even on pedals, generated tactile effects do not necessarily need to be limited or restricted to single units operational performance.

Err, even from a budget perspective for pedals why cant we possibly combine the HPR unit with one of these new exciters. It may well be that each unit brings its own benefits with lower/higher frequencies and does a much better job to help better represent more variation or felt character to effects sensations.

If that indeed is achieved then this simply means more types of effects can possibly be used, tailored to the users preference and enjoyed.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thread re-organised and improved.
Some more minor tweeks possibly but just a small update as
Amp and cable for the HPR have arrived.

 

[Mr Latte]

Had a quick go at just connecting the Nobsound amp to the HPR and yes the cable works a treat as expected.



Simhub Test 01
Configured the Nobsounds built in soundcard within Simhub's Sound Output settings and applied it with (Custom Channel Map)

* Channel test confirmed as working
* Shakeit Bass Shakers mode is active and responses are generated


Amplifier
Adjusting different volumes low to start
Simhub Global 50%
Effects "test" tried up to 100%

Additionally tested with setting the HPR as primary sound device in windows.
Used an audio tone generator.

Decent response from 5Hz+
Operational well beyond 50Hz

Based on this early look. It appears that the HPR will indeed operate with this approach.
Bringing the added benefits of "Shakeit Bass Shakers" that I mentioned.

So yes its possible to operate the HPR unit no different to a transducer and having the potential of using multilayering methods by applying different frequencies for more advanced effects.

Still want to be cautious at this point, because its performance and operational reliability if using it this way still needs to be looked into. Makes me wonder why the unit is officially restricted to 50Hz.

I can only think they may have been concerned, either about possible overheating or the audible noise being a factor with higher frequencies.

Will conduct more in depth tests in near future.

 

[Mr Latte]

HPR Fix?
I've been reading that the P2000 Haptic Controller got a fix with Simhub as it was operating at a lower output than if connected to P1000 pedal base. So updating to the newest release.


Test Setup
Decided that I am going to build a tactile test platform to let me help compare these units to each other but also to other transducers. Guys, I want to see what frequencies with generated test tones, how well each product performs. Not just go by which one feels strongest overall.

 

[Mr Latte]

Just a quick update for those following....

I connected the XCITE and the VBDS-4 to the amp and had each unit attached to their own metal plates. Just brief tests as had them on my lap. Also had the HPR connected via official method with controller and Shakeit Motors.

The Xcite model seemed to handle or need more amp volume as in comparison the same setting with the VBDS-4 was too much. So while both units are 40W it looks like one is more efficient.

Played around with a few frequencies and from early impressions (with Simhub update) the HPR seems pretty strong with low frequencies (10Hz/20Hz) bit of punch (more weight) in comparison to the exciters.

Just early comparison but I think the exciters will feel (smoother in application) so different and may start to show their benefits maybe in the 30Hz or 40Hz range. Still too early to say....

Hopefully get some time to do some work towards the test/frame but looking forward to see what I can discover and share with you guys.

 

[Tbird232ci]

@Mr Latte I really appreciate the information about the Startech sound card. I had been looking at various cards, but the reviews were less than helpful.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte I really appreciate the information about the Startech sound card. I had been looking at various cards, but the reviews were less than helpful.

Hey thanks for the feedback.

I was quite surprised with the variation in different models. You can feel it too when swapping cards but using the same Simhub settings.

The Startech 7.1 performs quite closely to my own preferred card (SoundBlaster X3 / X4). Those cost a lot more but tbh not what most people want to spend for tactile. Also if needing more than one soundcard for Simhub usage depending on the users tactile configuration.


Other Soundcard Factors
I noticed some instances of differences in the level of output over the 7.1 channels with some cards. Not huge but again noticeable with surround channels outputting lower than the main stereo channels. I don't know if it was just a specific card and tolerances of that one unit.

Just highlighting this as some people may discover a scenario that a few of their tactile units do not feel as strong as others, with the same settings.

Different possible reasons for this but Simhub offers a way to balance the output of channels anyways in its "Sound Output" controls to apply any necessary balancing of channels.

Another soundcard quirk, is that some cards can restrict the lowest bass frequencies for the "Centre" channel. IIRC one user told me a while back they couldn't understand why one of his large BK LFE was so poor compared to the other. It turned out the shared output for CEN/SUB on his (Soundblaster Z) soundcard appeared to limit the bass output for the CEN channel. Not sure if it was software/driver related to that model but is something to be mindful of that other cards could do the same on CEN or SUR channels.


Speaker Wire AWG
Manufacturers can sometimes recommend a gauge of cable to use with their product. Is it a factor? I will compare the same units on the same amp but with two quite different cables.

It's one of the "little details" I don't want to just assume but actually will incorporate with tests/comparisons and usage of various frequencies.

 

[herve45]

Hello
On simhub "output tuning" is it better to use "sound card volume" or "generated sound gain" ?
Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

Test Platform Reason / Purpose & Benefits
The bench test platform I build, as will be shared, is something that would be quite expensive to make based on the materials it uses.

I have a general idea, design I will go with (based on components I am for implementing into my own custom rig build). So this test platform, helps me also with my own build ideas. I am hoping to have this built within the week. Additional revisions can be applied to it as it will be adaptable.

Photos to come during the process.

Another reason for making this.... Well, I've never seen anyone really try to build something with this purpose. It will help offer better comparisons and determine how good/bad different models or various brands of transducers/shakers and exciters operate to each other.


Exciter Comparison Begins
My first test is remarkably simplistic.
Both of the new exciters are attached to these beautiful quality plates. One each side L/R attached to large industrial rubber isolation feet/blocks used in professional installations.

My feet are placed on the plates and comparing the initial direct output.
Pen paper, at the ready to give a score (1-5) to how I rate each response for each unit with each frequency tried.

*With the test build we can also look at using phone/tablet with apps on vibration readings but I am just eager to see what the first experiences/findings are.


Test / Source
Simhub is being used with "Road Vibrations", "ABS" and "Gear" effects.
I am aware these effects may not output pure sinewaves of the "input frequencies" applied in Simhubs settings. So a further test will be done with a tone generator also.

In Simhub for now, I am using the "effects test" feature. Therefore not live generated telemetry at this point but just to apply the same thing to each unit and get the first initial perspectives of how each unit differs on this first test.

I will then conduct the same test with the HPR via the official controller with same frequency applied with each each effect.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello
On simhub "output tuning" is it better to use "sound card volume" or "generated sound gain" ?
Thanks

For most users and installations the default SCV option is fine.

IIRC, thinking back I did not find any secret sauce or primary performance benefits with monitoring the output of both modes. I may not be fully correct on the below. I'm hazy with some elements as been a while since I was at this and I think any images of testing I had done looking into both options are on the old PC.

From memory SCV will output all attached soundcard(s) based on the global volume applied via windows.

1. Simhub Global / Channel Levels / Soundcard Output Level
2. Effects Volume
3. Optional - Pre Amplification Processing = DSP / EQ
4. Amplifier Volume
5. These are all combining factors to what the installed tactile unit will receive


Generated Sound Gain
GSG mode, IIRC could enable a user to apply different soundcard levels for Simhub usage that each soundcard used. Or to apply the built in crossover feature only to a specific card and not another with units attached to that card and the different output levels you may want to associate for that card.

It could be a benefit with an installation using very different makes/models of units and amplifiers they may each be powered by.

An example of using the crossover feature, may be units like budget TT25 or Exciters and a user applying a crossover to reduce/prevent low/high range frequencies going to those units.

In my opinion, it seems to be an additional control element a user can use to help tailor what models or level of tactile hardware they are using.

I am not fully convinced that frequencies below 20Hz are the cause/reason of exciters being damaged. It was a concern at one time. I expect the issue is caused more with excessive wattage or poorly configured control of 1,2,3,4,5. Can tell you that, in this thread I will look deeper into it and will be part of tests that get done.


Channel Test Issue?
I had illustrated an issue with the "Channel Test" feature in Simhub that contains no warning. This feature, is primarily just to check all your units are operational but.....

This outputs @40Hz at 100% soundcard volume regardless of what global gain was applied. So some people may have damaged their units using this with excessive amplifier volume. The 40Hz range is also one of the strongest frequencies that some budget units may produce. I don't know if this was ever fixed in any updates to Simhub but I very much expect some people damaged units not aware of what amplifier volume to use.


Configuration Preferences / Methods
Different people have different views or approaches.
Some soundcards do not operate best at 100% volume, the same could be said with amplifiers close or at max level.

I would seek more of a balance with 1,2,3,4,5 above.
To determine the strongest frequency output from a transducer/exciter is not overbearing or exceeding the units operational performance. In particular when an effects gain level in Simhub is at 100%.

This does not mean we need to use an "effect volume" at 100%. It means that with whatever settings we apply with 1,2,3,4,5 we avoid damaging a unit or issues with piston pang on shakers if it is set to that.

I would say its important to have some headroom in allowance here as other effects also generating the same frequency at the same time then add to the amplitude of that frequency, increasing its output. This is also another potential reason why damages may happen with less robust models. People often applying @40-50Hz to several effects they use?

If we seek additional energy/volume for specific effects then, their are ways we can apply this with other larger or more accomplished transducers for desired frequencies. In my vision for the exciters, their main roles were to be able to deliver specific sensations or effects activity to specific body regions. Also to help improve the usage of multiple effects operating at once.