New sim PC, opinion needed.

[Jacco van der Zaag]

That's the issue with computer tech. You can keep waiting forever, because there is always coming new stuff to the market.

 

[Durge Driven]

I won't really recommend going for the non-k.

Sorry, can't agree it depends on your situation

As for tests the 8700 runs 2666 ram and actually only does 4.3GHz all cores
so that is a 700MHz advantage and a handful of fps that wont effect refresh levels, considering wise people spend that much on a GPU would be getting Gsync

dearer cpu, chipset, memory, cooling, PSU, better case even is warranted

So you can save money on all that which balances out the performance gains

Sure if money is no concern K is the way to go

 

[RasmusP]

Sorry, can't agree it depends on your situation

As for tests the 8700 runs 2666 ram and actually only does 4.3GHz all cores
so that is a 700MHz advantage and a handful of fps that wont effect refresh levels

dearer cpu, chipset, memory, cooling, PSU, better case even is warranted

So you can save money on all that which balances out the performance gains

Sure if money is no concern K is the way to go

That's what a forum is for. To have different opinions and give the asking persons possibilities to choose from
I see your point, yet I come from another one. Both on solid ground, agree to disagree and hope the asking persons will choose rightly for their own situation!

 

[manu68]

This is also why I put this project on the table.
It may be useful for other people here, as we are not all "geek" with a big knowledge of the available components.

I don't like to spend money for something expensive I don't really need, and building a high end PC is not my goal or my hobby.
The all system must be homogeneous for what I expect to have at the end.
But if I get good explanations and can understand the advantages for the future, money is in my case not the problem.

I could read some more and I think i will go for the Gigabyte Z370 gaming 5.
It should be a good basis together with the i7-8700k and The MSI GTX-1070ti.
Not the most high end, but an already nice compromise.

I am about ready to purchase.
(just some more check with the SSD M2 and the memory DDR4. and of course the monitor )

 

[Durge Driven]

DVD : Asus DRW-24D5MT (I have many old sim and document on CD/DVD)

Hi

I have couple of things, try a LG USB external DVD
awesome and a few dollars dearer

1. You remove a brick from case
2. no running wires up top of case
3. Better airflow
4. Almost silent compared to internals
5. Plug in when needed
6. At fingertips

But the most compelling reason I can think of is the reliability

I have had best internal burners to oem
All of them at 16x speed had less then impressive write failures
and even at 8x still a fixed percentage of Frisbees each week

I swear this LG USB I have not had one fail from 100's of burns
every time I connect I do around 20 DVD and am always amazed
I will never buy a internal again

Oh reason I personally like is I use Nero express and in my version there is no way to save max write speed so I was forever selecting 8x before each burn
mind numbing ........now with 8x max writer I don't have to

Another odd one I recommend anyone is this
https://www.simplecom.com.au/simple...docking-station-for-2-5-and-3-5-sata-hdd.html

Alot of people complain about speed
You must set drives used in device manager for the quick cache method
then it screams along

even the shop I got it from had no clue and said they got 60mbs ( which was a lie they onlly did 30-40mbs connected to USB3.0 ) BUT with cache set right you get max speed your sata/s
will do

Two best things I have brought in years

 

[RasmusP]

One last thing from me:
Have a read about windows on an m2 drive. I don't own one yet as I don't have any slots for it but I remember reading something about boot problems etc.
That's really just throwing in some guesswork, it might work totally fine!

 

[Durge Driven]

One last thing from me:
Have a read about windows on an m2 drive. I don't own one yet as I don't have any slots for it but I remember reading something about boot problems etc.
That's really just throwing in some guesswork, it might work totally fine!

+1

I have 2 Samsung M2 960 250GB & 970 500GB in Asus B360 with retail W10 Home and fresh OSes are very rapid indeed and i always hated that "OEM" tag on primary partitions lol

I use the 500GB as primary with a 77.5GB C:\ and the rest for D: my first steam library and the 250GB is 2nd library and 3rd/4th steam are 250GB/500GB older SSD and last 2TB for sim patches and 5th library for all sims don't mind running on sata

( and to think a few years ago i bagged having to install steam for rF2 .......
come in sucker ! , 4 SSD .....evil steam ! )

Another good thing is along with USB DVD I need 3 less sata leads and power

instead of packing out my new Obi 750 case All my other satas I leave in drawer for use with usb 3.0 dual docking station less heat wiring more space better airflow need i go on


edit:
atm my C drive is 27.5 used so 50GB free more then enough for next build +

I use trueimage , to do a full image of C:\ takes about 4 mins ! from booting the computer till finish
and restoring takes the same ! lol

Oh one thing I don't like is because the M2 can't use port 0 & 1 they come last in disk management, no biggie ...I guess

 

[maelstrom]

As you can read from RainhamIron's post he got a big fat noctua air cooler. He had some expensive aio watercooling before but that was loud and didn't do the job really.

The Noctua NH-D15 is certainly the king of the aircoolers but the top AIOs (or better still, custom loops) are definitely better, can be just as quiet and, in the case of the AIOs, take up considerably less space inside the case. See https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/nzxt_kraken_x72_review,10.html and the following 2 pages for a good comparison. The more you overclock (and why get an 8700k if you're not going to) the bigger the difference between the Noctua and a good AIO. I have a Corsair H110i GT which cools better whilst being just as quiet as the Noctua NH-D15. Also, apart from the sheer size of the Noctua, the thought of having a 1.3kg weight hanging off the front of my MB never really appealed to me.

 

[Durge Driven]

Here is what I meant about Disk Management and M2's



Another thing I just noticed the "OEM" is back on the reserved partition
doh DD ......because you downloaded the latest build
My retail USB stick is 2 builds old now so takes too much time to update
Using that partition said Healthy not Healthy (OEM)

 

[Durge Driven]

The Noctua NH-D15 is certainly the king of the aircoolers but the top AIOs (or better still, custom loops) are definitely better, can be just as quiet and, in the case of the AIOs, take up considerably less space inside the case. See https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/nzxt_kraken_x72_review,10.html and the following 2 pages for a good comparison. The more you overclock (and why get an 8700k if you're not going to) the bigger the difference between the Noctua and a good AIO. I have a Corsair H110i GT which cools better whilst being just as quiet as the Noctua NH-D15. Also, apart from the sheer size of the Noctua, the thought of having a 1.3kg weight hanging off the front of my MB never really appealed to me.

I am with you me and Duc always fight over this for years at Nogrip lol

I brought my first 240 radiator and corsair obi 750 so 5 x 140 fans
should have done it years ago, yes I only run b boards and non K
which really means you only need a H60 to run 4.3Ghz load ( again that is all 8700 runs at and 8700K 4.6Ghz all cores ( coffee lake has some bug using turbo with xmp and one manufacturer even rigged it to run 8700K at 4.7GHz all cores to cheat benches which caused undue heat voltage and heat to unwitting users ! )

Oh like I said 8700 + H60 or 8700K@5GHz + H110 or better ( hope you have air cond. ) you work out the price difference

Corsair H110 ( overkill for my 8700 but soooo cool full load it's silly)

So in conclusion with this turbo/xmp lower turbo issue why should any non overclocker buy the K to gain 300MHz under load ( 4.3Ghz vs 4.6Ghz 4core load and 65w / 95w tdp ) silly less then 1/2 what those benches produced above

 

[RasmusP]

why should any non overclocker buy the K

To be able to smash all core 4.8 GHz at it in a few years. You can't predict whether you'll need it or not. But if money is not a crucial point then better have it and don't bother with the CPU/Mobo/RAM market for a few years longer.

In 2011 the 2600 non k was ridiculously overpowered. Same for 2600 compared to i5 2500.
As written earlier in this thread, without Hyperthreading or without the overclocking I'm running since the end of 2016 now, I would've upgraded for an i7 4970 probably and would bite my ass now when looking at the 8700k in comparison.

For VR with some overlay apps in Assetto Corsa you already kinda need an overclocked 8700k. Or in other words, the higher you OC, the more apps you can run and higher reflection settings etc. you can throw at it.
Who knows what will be in 5 years?

I'm really really glad that I have the i7 and the k. Anything lower would've resulted in me already upgrading.

I see the points for the non k though

Overall from my personal perspective it's i5 8400 for good performance and saving lots of money but upgrade possibly in 3 years or just get the i7 k and be ready for 6+ years like I was

 

[Durge Driven]

sorry for spam but somewhere was comment about water cooling being noisy
and I agree some are

Corsiar Obsidan 750D and H110 cooling = 5 x 140 fans
Well I can't hear it running over my tinnitus ! lmao

Honestly though it is quietest thing I have ever owned 4.3Ghz 65w full load 50C+ or less in any sim it never even has to spin up !

Mind you not in aussie summer @40c with no air cond !@!
With H60 and H90 and 4690 and 7600K with 40C no air cond
last summers they get too hot but would be same for best air cooler

Seriously I dare you heat your room to 40C + , see how hot your PC before boot ! and it goes downhill from there hehe

all these 20C ambient temps lab tests mean squat to a struggling aussie lol
In my summer you must turn off all inlet fans or heat the case more


I always sell AIO with my last build so only ever a few years into 5 year warranty
so espically with 140mm fans not as much bearing wear they get good deal too


i hear ya mate !
if we all thought the same would be a sad world

 

[DucFreak]

The Noctua NH-D15 is certainly the king of the aircoolers but the top AIOs (or better still, custom loops) are definitely better, can be just as quiet and, in the case of the AIOs, take up considerably less space inside the case.
(...)
I have a Corsair H110i GT which cools better whilst being just as quiet as the Noctua NH-D15. Also, apart from the sheer size of the Noctua, the thought of having a 1.3kg weight hanging off the front of my MB never really appealed to me.

Cools better?
....maybe, when you reach highest voltages, closer to more extreme OC practices.
Otherwise, for 99% of cases, difference is not all that relevant.

Just as quiet?
...sorry, but it's not true.
From personal experience, the corsair fans used on the H110i are quite good, but not all that silent.
Nothing, and I mean nothing out there beats the NF-A15 PWM fans of Noctua (found in their CPU coolers). Outstanding ratio of air moved for the lowest noise. They're patented, and relatively expensive for a reason - they're simply the best. Hear it to believe it. I did, the hype is all true.

Liquid-cooling, be it AIO or custom solution, will always be prone to failure. It's not myth or gossip, it's a fact. I don't mean just the radiators and the fragile tubing/connections, but the pumps. It may take weeks, or months, or years (you just never know) but will always fail at some point. Guaranteed.
Some pumps are also a bit noisy in silent environments. Not "loud" but annoying in the emmited sounds.

An air-cooler will never, ever fail.... because there's nothing to fail. It's 100% reliable, forever.
If that much, the fan bearings can fail (never seen it, but I guess is possible after a decade of 24/7 work?!), but then even that is a very easy and super cheap part to replace. Simplicity at its best, it just works.
There are no noises, apart from the sound of the fan(s).

More over, most decent cooling brands have update replacements you can get for their coolers when a new socket is introduced. Meaning, you'll probably be able to use a good cooler (air or liquid) through different generations of hardware/systems.
When you add the reliability factor, if a good air-cooler is not a great investment, then I don't know what is.

In regards to the thought of having over +/- a Kilo of weight hanging off the front of the motherboard, it's really just that - a thought, because it's not a problem.
The only time it was a concern was when the Intel Skylake processors were launched back in 2015, and only occured with the heaviest coolers in extreme situations, like when dropping the cases (such as with shipment service mis-handling, when shipping complete systems). Not in normal scenarios.
The best manufacturers for air-coolers have literally decades of development, they've already have it figured out.

Next, let's compare prices....
- Noctua NH-D15 = 85.00 Euros
- Corsair H110i GT = 150.00 Euros

Does the extra paid make sense to you?
...fair enough if you think "yes", but it really doesn't to me.

BTW, even then, there's no need to get a Noctua NH-D15. There are more affordable solutions with comparable performance.
For example, a Scythe Fuma rev. B performs about 95% as good, and costs 50% less(!).
The mentioned Thermalright Macho Rev. B is an even cheaper solution, also good for most user cases.
Next to these, you'll probably have to pay 2x (if not 3x) for a liquid-cooling solutions with comparable performances.

My advice for the OT after years and years and dozens of systems (good and bad) built and maintained, for me, for friends and their friends, is to put the money where it really counts.
No need for unnecessary (or bigger complexity) in cooling, gadgets and bling-bling crap (f.ex, LED fans and stripes are a total waste of money).

....me and Duc always fight over this for years at Nogrip lol

Yep.
And unless AIOs proove to be better for same dollar (which they still don't!), I'll always, forever, vouch for an air cooler, and will never recommend AIO with the current radiator/pump technology.
For most users, I think air-cooling is the definition of "best bang for the buck". Simple.

 

[Durge Driven]

apples to oranges Duc and no one ever said they are better value ?

Why do people go out and buy huge core radiators, thermo fans and braided lines
for their street machines and others are happy with less that do the same job

Its called life

 

[DucFreak]

apples to oranges Duc and no one ever said they are better value ?

Why do people go out and buy huge core radiators, thermo fans and braided lines
for their street machines and others are happy with less that do the same job

Its called life

"life"?
I bet you're biting Nvidias press conference and pre-ordering an ultra overpriced RTX 2080?

No mate, it's called marketing and fashion.
People pay for what they're led to think they need. Sheep follow the herd.
It's always been like that, always will.

F.ex, PC cases.... decades ago it was white color cases. Then futuristic shapes. Then black cases. The windowed cases. Then Glass cases. Some cost 200.00+ Euros, for no particular reason.

The current ridiculous trend, for example.... Motherboards and RAM sticks with LED bling-bling like christmas trees....? LMAO The manufacturers can't believe they pulled this one and managed, laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Durge Driven]

Yes I get 1800MHz 2080 @ $1,199 which is cheaper then I would have paid for a GTX1080Ti
Right now same store the good Ti's are still dearer ?

I can't believe sim community is going to mock RTX when at the same time are upbeat about updated
static rain night and puddles lol, it makes no sense to me, this is ground breaking eye candy
and immersion

good lord people went on how AC made rF2 a cartoon !
future RTX sims like AC2 will make AC look cardboard

the huge difference to me is a sim developer has taken it on and soon the rest will follow like sheep

 

[manu68]

Thanks everybody !
Now I am totally lost

Seriously, all that I could read is very interesting and I have already learned many things.
I agree on the k vs no K, AIO vs ventirad, ......it is a difficult choice
The problem for people like me is that the choice is so huge that we need help from people with experience like here. This is why such a forum is so precious

I have decided on some components now. Maybe they are not the best and or the cheaper, maybe I am wrong, but I have to decide on something .

CPU : Intel I7-8700K.
I willdon't use overclocking 99% of the time, but who knows ? It will be available if needed.
Motherboard : Gigabyte Z370 Aorus gaming 5
There is probably other offers as good as this one, but it is a Z370 for overclkocking the I7-8700K, various connectors for many things, wifi, ...
GPU : MSI Geforce GTX 1070 Ti Gaming 8g
It could be endless discussion. I have seen this one which seems to be an honest compromise. The look is ok, and the review I could read are mainly positive.
Alim: Coolermaster Masterwatts 650W
Once again many choice. It seems to cover my needs at the moment. It has enough connection for the MSI (8 pins + 6 pins needed to power the card properly)
Ventirad : Be quiet Dark rock 4
No AIO for me. The Dark rock 4 has good review and should cover my needs. I could upgrade that easily if needed in some years (possible to had a fan ). I have choosen the Be quiet, because I will also purchase 2 fans be quiet Silent wing 3 for the enclosure
HDD : Seagate Firecuda 1To (Hybrid)
More than enough place for some , mods etc..
SDD : Corsair Force MP300 M2 PCIE 3.0 2x 240 Go
For Windows and the main software I will use.
The motherboard has three M2 places, so I don't see any point why not to use one of them. l will go for M2 SDD and I will see.
Less cables

What I don't have decided 100% at the moment.

PC : Fractal Design R5 window
Very nice enclosure, but I am not sure about the DVD player/burner at the moment.
I could go for a nice but more simple enclosure, smaller, as I may don't need 5.25" bay.
I also will have only one HDD , so I don't really need a very big enclosure.
As it has been said, I can had anytime an external DVD/burner, and I also have a laptop with DVD burner (and my wife has also a recent Macbook pro)

Memory DDR4 : G.Skill D416GB 3000 Ripjaws V K2 GSK
So many choice. I honestly have absolutely NO IDEA what to choose.

Monitor.
I have decided for a 35" 21:9. Great looking monitors, nice compromise between price, size and performance with sim racing.
I will probably take a model with G-Sync, as I have a GTX 1070i . It may be useful.
I have some options, but I hesitate A LOT between 1080p, and 1440p. Same with 100Hz and 144hz or more.
I really need some advices on the screen resolution and frequency
G-sync works well between 60 and 100 fps, so 100hz should be enough .
But in the future ?
Monitor is not where I want absolutely spare money.

 

[Jacco van der Zaag]

Have you checked the RAM is supported by the motherboard? You can find it in the manual of the motherboard. Might overlooked it, but the topic has been sidetracked a bit..

 

[RasmusP]

Memory DDR4 : G.Skill D416GB 3000 Ripjaws V K2 GSK

I'd recommend to get something with lower height. Shouldn't be a problem with the dark rock but all these fancy cooling things aren't needed. I always aim for as low height ram as possible. Some nice cooling cover is good to have though. For grabbing and some little cooling.

To the monitor: there are enough threads
Gsync is awesome, 100 Hz and therefore fps should be enough.
I am looking forward to finally get a 1440p monitor. Everytime I work on my surface laptop or a MacBook and come back to my 27" 1080p monitor it almost hurts the eyes.
Plus you need less anti aliasing.

But it's ridiculously expensive to have it all so I wouldn't know what to buy. Honestly.

 

[manu68]

I think so

Support for DDR4 4133(O.C.) / 4000(O.C.) / 3866(O.C.) / 3800(O.C.) / 3733(O.C.) / 3666(O.C.) / 3600(O.C.) / 3466(O.C.) / 3400(O.C.) / 3333(O.C.) / 3300(O.C.) / 3200(O.C.) / 3000(O.C.) / 2800(O.C.) / 2666 / 2400 / 2133 MHz memory modules

https://www.gigabyte.com/fr/Motherboard/Z370-AORUS-Gaming-5-rev-10#sp