Motion system with 10000$ budget

[Pablo Roldan]

I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).

 

[SigmaMotion]

I just wanted to report on my sfx150 purchase from eraciing lab... The elements arrived in three packages from different origin points (motors, actuators and servo drives)... About at the same time.... One of the motor mounts that goes on top the actuator was a lightly scratched from the trip and Alex from eracing immediately sent a replacement without asking any questions.... Excellent customer service the whole way... All questions were always answered in a very timely manner... I assembled and mounted everything in less than 10-12 hours (and I'm horrible with my hands)....all the necessary parts were supplied and Everything worked well immediately... It's an amazing system.... Super responsive, quiet, I don't think i can ever drive without it. I'm not even close to finish tuning it but that's an SrS exercise.
Only suggestions i have:

1) to remove the key from the motor shaft may be obvious to most but it wasn't for me. I just went to the hardware and found a mini hex screw and a mini hex key to extract the key from the shaft as it was insterted. tightly

2) when i watched saint Barry's pt actuator video, he received the servo drives and cables with labels indicating what goes where... the diagram received by Eracing indicates which cables goes where in the Thanos controller but no label on cables ... Simple enough to do and may save you time... (I'm an idiot and had an actuator wired the wrong way..)

3) before you connect to the actuators to the thanos controller, you should do a functional check of the actuators only...(also on saint Barry's pt actuator video) ...make sure you check all parameters as per the document sent by Eracing. I was too enthusiastic and didn't set my voltage to 110v us network and the servo deives gave me an error message... (But didn't blow up)

I said it already but this thing is absolutely amazing ... I don't have a life anymore since it's been installed....

AC and acc have poor telemetry apparently but automotibilista 2 has superb telemetry out of the box...
The way those rumble strips feel under your butt is just phenomenal...
Also I'm glad I took the 150mm... In Bathurst or spa with big elevation changes, it makes a huge difference...
And since you can change srs setting from your phone live, you can see instantly the pitch change when you are on slope and the car is stopped....

Curious to why you think AC and ACC have poor telemetry. Both are running at 360Hz + unbuffered, the only games that beat it are BeamNG at 4000Hz. I know that AC optimizes the track and still has a single point tire model, but we found it to be quite lively. Thanks.

 

[commandant.brioche]

Curious to why you think AC and ACC have poor telemetry. Both are running at 360Hz + unbuffered, the only games that beat it are BeamNG at 4000Hz. I know that AC optimizes the track and still has a single point tire model, but we found it to be quite lively. Thanks.

You clearly know more than me. I just repeated what i jeard from pro tuners...
One indication is that we can't have rumble strip effects in ac and acc.

 

[SigmaMotion]

You clearly know more than me. I just repeated what i jeard from pro tuners...
One indication is that we can't have rumble strip effects in ac and acc.

Cool just making sure. Rumble strips are very interesting and require high frequency processing. Two reasons why they might not work...

1) some games don't model the details of the track, like each and every bump like iRacing does, and hence why it takes so long to load each track in the beginning so to be efficient and lower loading times, game developers draw regions or areas where a certain feedback is felt, usually for the wheels FFB mechanism, but the out of bounds areas are very simple and large polygons with very little grain or detail. This is efficient, and not a bad thing necessarily, but not realistic, AC does this with its off track area, if you go off track, it always feels the same, and just oscillates the vibration. You can also adjust that frequency in the ini files.

2) the rumble strips require a certain sampling rate. AC and ACC physics engine runs at a steady 333Hz, some games like Dirt 2.0 and rFactor (I think) run at 60Hz, which was fine in the past and okay for most feedback devices like a wheel. But you need to sample higher frequencies, and process higher frequencies and to be able to mechanically reproduce some rumble strips at speed. Some of the systems running Arduinos or do motion processing on the computer might have issues with this.

Someone some time ago created a suspension track in AC, its got some good rumble strips and jumps. If anyone has motion they should download it and give it a go. A good test of motion system performance. Another simple test is to drive in a fast tight car in a straighline and just make constant left and right turns. The motion system should be able to keep up, if the turn eventually become less intense or stop all together while you are still turning the wheel, that is a form of motion washout, where the system on the whole can no longer keep up with the signal data from the game. ;-)

 

[Philip K]

I too have been looking at the dk2, trying to weigh up the benefits of their system v the extra travel you get with others, it is frankly a head melter, but I do think they have some interesting features which are coming very soon.

There is some information from their Facebook group on the work they are doing on vibrations / haptics, they have it tested and running at 667hz so far which I think is far above what other systems can generate (correct me if I’m wrong).

their control method is also velocity based rather than position and they are very adamant in not using any canned effects.

I also looked at the qubic systems, limited to 100mm travel, but the speed, they claim 800mm/s which is bonkers, although would you be able to reach that in 100mm stroke? Who knows!! Their haptics / vibrations for their system is stated as 100hz for comparison.

if anyone knows what the pt / thanos / srs can achieve for hz haptics, then that would be of interest.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

I am confused about the motion systems.Some people talk about fast/little movements is the way to go as those from DBOX and DK2 , other people in the other hand talk about having long travel otherwise if you can not match orientation with what you see on the VR heaset inmmersion is lost.

Will this be person dependant?

Does it worth having a motion system just for haptics?. I like dbox and DK2 aproach but they have to deliver more than that in a convincing way.

Still do not understand why dont just go with a SFX150 , you can always limit travel by software.

 

[OlaGB]

I too have been looking at the dk2, trying to weigh up the benefits of their system v the extra travel you get with others, it is frankly a head melter, but I do think they have some interesting features which are coming very soon.

There is some information from their Facebook group on the work they are doing on vibrations / haptics, they have it tested and running at 667hz so far which I think is far above what other systems can generate (correct me if I’m wrong).

their control method is also velocity based rather than position and they are very adamant in not using any canned effects.

I also looked at the qubic systems, limited to 100mm travel, but the speed, they claim 800mm/s which is bonkers, although would you be able to reach that in 100mm stroke? Who knows!! Their haptics / vibrations for their system is stated as 100hz for comparison.

if anyone knows what the pt / thanos / srs can achieve for hz haptics, then that would be of interest.

Most systems that can do vibrations, is up to 100hz i think? D-box also does up to 100hz from what i`ve found.

I made myself a list of the things i wanted out of a system, and pro/cons of the different subjects to consider.
All systems are different, none fits every customer out there.

What i find even more frustrating, is that there`s alot of seller`s in the buisiness. Seller`s that tells you what YOU want, and suprisingly thats exactly what they sell. Nothing new there, i know, but it`s a difficult product to buy so you should do youre own research and thoughts about what you wish to achieve.
And then there`s people. People saying SFX with arduino is perfect, some that`s claiming D-box is magnetic driven when it`s not, people that maybe dont to much tech but still talk as they know it all. I think that if someone tells you there`s only one choice, they probably are`nt the right person to listen to..

There`s tons of pros/cons to consider.
My personal main topics where;
-Do i need/want alot of travel? Yes travel can be limited, but it will define where youre monitors are placed safely anyway. You need alot of Space between rig and monitors with alot of travel. I would choose higher travel systems if i where doing VR flightsim`s for sure!
-How is it controlled? Internal computed loop, or maybe pc calculated? Arduino or higher industri grade electronics?
-Good system software and software for tuning, thats easy to use.
-Good tactile feedback? Some wants just alot of movement, other want`s to know when they barely touch the kerb.
-Size and placements of actuators? Some are very long, some stick out alot to the sides, some has to be in a perfect square ++
-Tidy installation? I wanted a clean minimalistic install. (Not afraid of wires tho, i`m a electrician/tech)
-Noise level? Not a big issue for me, but i can`t stand high freq noises.
-EMI issues?
-Sim compatibility and development?
-Customer service?
-Price?

Also consider if you want to advance to surge/sway, and if the system can do that.
I dont want that, but i wanted active belt tension, and i`ve chosen a standalone system for that.

Basicly you need to choose what you want and what you`re willing to compromise..

 

[crooksy]

If you are serious in VR, then you should not consider anything less than 100mm (or even 150mm). When you race in VR and go over big banks or steep hills (or even at oval), and if your motion system does not have enough travel to move the rig at the angle to match the visual in VR, it breaks the immersion completely.

On the other hand, if you don't use motion compensation for VR or race with monitor, then don't bother going over 100mm because doing big movement with monitor breaks immersion. That's one of the reasons why tuning motion down works better for such rigs.

For me VR+150mm+motion compensation is the way to go. It overcomes the limitation that a traditional 1.5" system has and opens up the new possibilities for motion rigs.

If there's any lag though in VR then it's very noticeable. Lets be honest though no matter how much travel there is it's never going to match exactly 1:1

Some people are different in VR sometimes a small amount of quick movement is just enough to trick the brain, for others they may need more movement.

That's why I'm glad I will get to try before buy before making a decision.

 

[crooksy]

That loan is actually a great offer!
Have you tried any sfx, dbox, pt actuators?
The 150 mm is not a deal breaker and it's only useful on a few tracks (spa, nur burgring, Bathurst) but i respectfully disagree that it's not significant ... I set a limit of 100mm through the controller to see the difference and the pitch angle difference is probably 2-5 degrees.. more importantly, you really feel the difference when climbing or descending the slope...
Regading the software, sigma sent me a long email to explain that their solution is superior but with an equal speed of 250mm/s and people raving all the time about srs, i just couldn't be convinced to spend an extra 1500 usd.

Well I didn't say that it isn't significant, I just said that it's not as significant as you might think. For example if it was a choice between a system that had a huge range of movement for flight sims, rally off road racing and track racing but had lag vs a system with small range and no lag then I'd choose the one with no lag every time.

Remember too that a GS5 seat is superb at conveying elevation changes too, so I will be very interested to see how the GS5 and Sigma will work together

Regarding other motion systems, no I haven't been fortunate to try other systems but I'd love to try them. That's the whole issue with motion you kind of have to go all in and typically you stick firm to your decision because you've invested so much into it.

One thing to note about Sigma, they have been around for a long time and were building full size racing simulators with real cars, they used DBox for a long time but had issues with them as a supplier so they decided to build their own. That's why I say they will be a rival to DBox because they have a lot of knowledge about that system and know how to improve upon it.

 

[crooksy]

I am confused about the motion systems.Some people talk about fast/little movements is the way to go as those from DBOX and DK2 , other people in the other hand talk about having long travel otherwise if you can not match orientation with what you see on the VR heaset inmmersion is lost.

Will this be person dependant?

Does it worth having a motion system just for haptics?. I like dbox and DK2 aproach but they have to deliver more than that in a convincing way.

Still do not understand why dont just go with a SFX150 , you can always limit travel by software.

I would say yes it's person dependent and VR or non VR dependent.

I would tend to trust the likes of what Barry says at Sim Racing Garage too, simply because he's in a rare position to thoroughly test many different systems and provide an informed opinion.

 

[Philip K]

1. P1X
2. GS5 Seat
3. GBelt
4. Sigma Integrale DX2

This is what I am aiming for, so far I have the P1X and GS5 seat and will be working my way through this upgrade path

Crooksy, I think you must have been reading my mind with your list, that is currently how my list sits, I’m just needing to finish some indoor / outdoor renovations first to I’ll be in trouble with the other half lol.

For me if the dk2 was 100mm travel it would be a slam dunk for me, the 50mm travel just gives me doubts, so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it all when the time comes

 

[Pablo Roldan]

1. P1X
2. GS5 Seat
3. GBelt
4. Sigma Integrale DX2

This is what I am aiming for, so far I have the P1X and GS5 seat and will be working my way through this upgrade path

I am on the same boat.But G-Belt will come first.

For G-Seat i will wait until PT-Actuators shows his work.

An waiting for opinions of the people that just purchased the DK2...

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Also considering Wind.For me that I play mostly F1 style cars i think could also be a good addition.

I did not see it really at first.But i think that if i manage to make the wind hit me only in my face as if in an actual F1 cockpit it could work really well.

 

[Clover11]

Anybody seen any info on PT's new active belt system? I see it is available on their site, but there is almost no info. Obviously wondering how it compares to the g-belt.

 

[OlaGB]

Anybody seen any info on PT's new active belt system? I see it is available on their site, but there is almost no info. Obviously wondering how it compares to the g-belt.

Ordered it the other day. Got some info..

Servo DC motor, into gearboxes. Claims it`s silent!
Separate left/right motors, and based on rotation not a lever like G-belt.
Direct 110/220v and USB, with SRS software they said.
Claiming approx same functions as G-belt, but quicker (might be brag, who knows).
Supposedly self tensioning when you start the car!
Ment to be installed on the rig frame.
First 500 orders gets a 5 point belt included.
About a month+ wait.

 

[blekenbleu]

any info on PT's new active belt system

According to Karl Gosling, it is jointly developed with SRS,
which site does not yet offer it, despite software and firmware support for it.

 

[Pablo Roldan]

Anybody seen any info on PT's new active belt system? I see it is available on their site, but there is almost no info. Obviously wondering how it compares to the g-belt.

This is a message i got from Echo as a reply asking for the g-belt:

"Hi Pablo,

Thank you so much for your interest in our Active Belt Tensioner kit.

Our Active Belt is available in Europe for sure, but the first batch 50 sets have been sold out.
If you order now, I can arrange your order in the line of the second batch, one month around.

Let me give you some featuring descriptions, we are totally DC closed loop servos, 24V and the power train system is by using a flange size 42 servo motor which mounted to a high precision gearbox( which meets a very high end mechanical machining tolerance 5 arc/minute ), and the output shaft driving a wheel which revolving the belt for tension and output. And left and right belt are working individually, by synchronizing move, like surge, left sway and right sway,etc.

Another big aspect of pt active belt tension kit is, we are automatically tension tight ( hold your shoulder )once your engine ignition, just like driving a real car..

Have a nice day !"

 

[metalnwood]

The PT belt looks good to me. I have one so not in the market but the price seems OK, it's two motors and if it's got a gearbox I am sure it will pull as much as you would want it to.

I like the idea that it uses, I assume, torque to adjust the belt for you at the beginning but that fact it is tied to SRS wouldnt do it for me.

I do have SRS and it looks like it competes well with software satisfying the user that doesnt want to tinker but I dont always use SRS and I would want to use it with something else as well, like flypt.

 

[crooksy]

Also considering Wind.For me that I play mostly F1 style cars i think could also be a good addition.

I did not see it really at first.But i think that if i manage to make the wind hit me only in my face as if in an actual F1 cockpit it could work really well.

I made my own wind machine using the SymProjects board and Bitcoin mining high speed fans, it's a fun easy project to do.

Wind is something that a lot of people laugh at but it's surprisingly effective in VR.

 

[crooksy]

Crooksy, I think you must have been reading my mind with your list, that is currently how my list sits, I’m just needing to finish some indoor / outdoor renovations first to I’ll be in trouble with the other half lol.

For me if the dk2 was 100mm travel it would be a slam dunk for me, the 50mm travel just gives me doubts, so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it all when the time comes

I just got divorced so I don't have to worry about the other half,. I'm treating myself to all the toys that I denied myself all these years!

 

[Philip K]

I just got divorced so I don't have to worry about the other half,. I'm treating myself to all the toys that I denied myself all these years!

I feel lucky in that sense that the wife is onboard with the whole idea and knows I’ve been waiting to do it for a long time now, so post Christmas is decision time on final choices!