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Motion system with 10000$ budget

Pablo Roldan

Premium
I have a rig with a tactile system built which i feel pretty good but from what i have read in this forum i with all probabity have no idea what i really good tactil system feels like.

Besides improving it which i think should be the first thing before going for a motion system i am thinking and thinking (or dreaming and dreaming) about what a motion route go for.

I like actuators because of the heave, and pitch to surf the road, but i see people with actuators and still using a seat mover to kind of feel de G-forces (even not sustained).So i am wandering which combination would work best for me:

1-Actuators+Seat mover (No traction loss, i am not building a >4 actuators setup in my room)
2-Actuators with G-seat (Simulated traction loss, and i wander if a g-seat fully replace seat mover)
3-Next limit Traction loss + Seat mover/Gseat (Missing the heave and pitch, but really would like to know how that nexlimit traction loss platform feels,if someone have it and can tell)

Or any other combination you find the best for you,i am just pointing these 3 out.

A G-Belt could fit on any i guess.

If you had around 10000$ what motion system would you build?(Not including pedals/wheel,shifter).
 
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DK2 looks pretty good. Double the travel of the DBOX system and chepear. Only thing is they are a bit noisy and not looking as good.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I like the finish in the dk2 it's a tough finish that won't scratch and mark easily.

I think if the noise would have been worse than any other system then Barry would have mentioned it in his review, I had similar concerns with GS5 seat but it isn't noisy and can't be heard when wearing headphones in VR so I doubt it will cause problems.

Noise is a good issue to bring up though and is something worth considering when living in a small or open plan apartment.

I used to live in an open planned loft apartment and the noise traveled so much so that the sequential shifter would wake up my ex when racing late at night and there is no way a motion system could have been used in that scenario.

Equally if you've got neighbors living beneath you then it's something to consider too.
 
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NetLawMan

Premium
Yeah, if I had a Lamborghini, I would be happy too. I would take care it so well, keep it safe in the garage all the time.

Then I would drive my Jeep to the ground and have some fun too.
A little sarcastic don’t you think? The difference is that your Jeep is subject to regulations, and has to meet minimum safety requirements. It is built by a large publicly traded company that would suffer consequences, including government and legal liability, for failing to meet safety regulations. So it is not the same as buying from a company that is not subject to safety regulations, in a product segment not subject to scrutiny, and that is not necessarily concerned with repercussions.

Thus my point was not to say everyone must buy dbox. It was to highlight some things that should be taken into account.

Thanks for the sarcasm.
 
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Tronicgr_6DOF

Authorised Vendor
Premium
A little sarcastic don’t you think? The difference is that your Jeep is subject to regulations, and has to meet minimum safety requirements. It is built by a large publicly traded company that would suffer consequences, including government and legal liability, for failing to meet safety regulations. So it is not the same as buying from a company that is not subject to safety regulations, in a product segment not subject to scrutiny, and that is not necessarily concerned with repercussions.

Thus my point was not to say everyone must buy dbox. It was to highlight some things that should be taken into account.

Thanks for the sarcasm.

I would like to see a list of such government regulations please. Does it include all people doing DIY at home too? That would be interesting.

BTW, you didn't get it. I would get D-box too if I was rich enough and wouldn't mind the 1.5". I would place them on my couch in the living room, and use the bad boys 6" in my mancave on the actual fully loaded racing rig. :)
 
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metalnwood

Premium
That's not correct according to the guys at Sigma DX2 reaches max speed in the 2 inches easily and when fully loaded. In fact Max speed in 70ms at 1/3 of the travel.


edit - and I must have not read your full answer because you said it on the last sentence!

The sigma is just saying that it reaches its full speed within it's travel of 50mm. On it's scope it doesnt look like it reaches that full speed until one third of travel, so for 1/3rd of travel from motionless it is still ramping up.

Another interesting thing from that video is the time division, it looks like nearly 300ms to do it, a bit less. On the calculator to the left is a figure of 2.71xxxxx which looks about right so I am guessing that is what they calculated from the time division. so it takes 271ms to go full stroke.

That is 184mm/s or 7.2" /s averaged but appropriate for the test the conducted. Close to their stated figure but 14% lower.
 
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NetLawMan

Premium
You can start with the NHTSA. Any car used on a public road is subject to regulation, including the NHTSA. Let’s not forget state regulations. Car manufacturers are obviously subject to additional regulations as manufacturers.

Again, all are free to choose brand and type as they see fit. I only added a couple of points that might be helpful for one to consider when making the decision for themselves.

Oh, and I am not rich. So it’s not about being rich. Everyone gets to set their own priorities. I have certainly been a person and seen other people save for a longer period of time if they want something that might be more expensive (I.e., short term vs long term gratification).

There is also a used and refurbished market. So it’s not fair to tag d-box or any other North American company (employing North Americans) as a product for the rich because it is more expensive than products that are sold by companies that invest little in development, but have enough manufacturing capability and lower cost labor, to go after the rage of the day for the sake of short term profits.

That’s not to say this is the case for every company, as there are plenty of true d-box competitors investing in this market. For me to make such a broad sweeping statement would be like tagging d-box as being only for the rich without fully acknowledging the similarities and differences to competitor products, and thus putting it all into context.

-Cheers
 
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OlaGB

Premium
edit - and I must have not read your full answer because you said it on the last sentence!

The sigma is just saying that it reaches its full speed within it's travel of 50mm. On it's scope it doesnt look like it reaches that full speed until one third of travel, so for 1/3rd of travel from motionless it is still ramping up.

Another interesting thing from that video is the time division, it looks like nearly 300ms to do it, a bit less. On the calculator to the left is a figure of 2.71xxxxx which looks about right so I am guessing that is what they calculated from the time division. so it takes 271ms to go full stroke.

That is 184mm/s or 7.2" /s averaged but appropriate for the test the conducted. Close to their stated figure but 14% lower.
No system made so far, is capable of accellerating to max speed immediately without any ramp time. It`s physically impossible.
And the actuator will be moving while ramp up.
Spec for all systems are max speed, not average. Average speed will normally be closer to max speed the longer stroke the actuator has.

The video proves the system runs at max speed (rpm is proven, and we know the lead of the ballscrew) for 2/3 of the travel of total 50mm at close to max reccomended load!
It proves the motor is well suited for the job, and that the powersupply is powerfull enough to handle all 4 actuators simultaniously.
If the powersupply where to weak, the ramp up time would be significantly longer at higher load due to high amp draw at low rpm`s, and peak torque would`nt increase much compared to the lower load test.
This is my personal views/opinions, but it`s really just basic electronic knowledge.

It doesnt prove it`s better than `system XYZ`, but i really dont think that was the intention either.
 
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metalnwood

Premium
No system made so far, is capable of accellerating to max speed immediately without any ramp time. It`s physically impossible.
And the actuator will be moving while ramp up.
Spec for all systems are max speed, not average. Average speed will normally be closer to max speed the longer stroke the actuator has.

The video proves the system runs at max speed (rpm is proven, and we know the lead of the ballscrew) for 2/3 of the travel of total 50mm at close to max reccomended load!
It proves the motor is well suited for the job, and that the powersupply is powerfull enough to handle all 4 actuators simultaniously.
If the powersupply where to weak, the ramp up time would be significantly longer at higher load due to high amp draw at low rpm`s, and peak torque would`nt increase much compared to the lower load test.
This is my personal views/opinions, but it`s really just basic electronic knowledge.

It doesnt prove it`s better than `system XYZ`, but i really dont think that was the intention either.
Yes, I understand that. I didn't see his last sentence so was pointing that out also to him - which turned out to be unnecessary.

The reality for all of these is that most of their motion is only in the range of a few mm and max speeds are far from achieved there.
 
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Just to be clear I'm not a Sigma DK2 fanboy or anything I'm just impressed with what I see so far. Overall I think all the motion systems out there are great options for anyone and you won't be disappointed whatever option you go with, they all have their pros and cons. If there was a perfect option it would be dominating the market.
 
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Pablo Roldan

Premium
Just to be clear I'm not a Sigma DK2 fanboy or anything I'm just impressed with what I see so far. Overall I think all the motion systems out there are great options for anyone and you won't be disappointed whatever option you go with, they all have their pros and cons. If there was a perfect option it would be dominating the market.
I am waiting for a quotation of the DK2 system here in Europe.
For now i am not going to get a motion system but it looks that in the future it will be between SFX150 and DK2
 
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I am waiting for a quotation of the DK2 system here in Europe.
For now i am not going to get a motion system but it looks that in the future it will be between SFX150 and DK2
I recommend you follow the Sigma Facebook page they post regular updates and respond very quickly over on Facebook.

They are currently working on the DK3 which will support even more weight
 
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Pablo Roldan

Premium
The P1-X should be here wednesday and i might start building it right away.

I also ordered 2xButtkickers LFE along with a ND3000X

The 2xTST239 will have to wait until next year since i am buying them in USA and will have them brought here to spain with a family member i have studying there.

I am planning to build at the back of the simrig a "BOX" with all the connections needed to have it running.And i do not know how to do it so i would like some recomendations.

I want to connect to the FRONT side of the box the USB cables from the PC , the Neutrik NL2 FX from the amps and a Electricity plug.

On the BACK side of the box should be outputs to plug the USB Hubs, the Neutrik NL2 FX to the BK/TST's and the Power strip.

If you can point me to threads of builds that made something similar or you have suggestion or different ideas easier that you think work better please i need advice on this.
 
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OlaGB

Premium
The P1-X should be here wednesday and i might start building it right away.

I also ordered 2xButtkickers LFE along with a ND3000X

The 2xTST239 will have to wait until next year since i am buying them in USA and will have them brought here to spain with a family member i have studying there.

I am planning to build at the back of the simrig a "BOX" with all the connections needed to have it running.And i do not know how to do it so i would like some recomendations.

I want to connect to the FRONT side of the box the USB cables from the PC , the Neutrik NL2 FX from the amps and a Electricity plug.

On the BACK side of the box should be outputs to plug the USB Hubs, the Neutrik NL2 FX to the BK/TST's and the Power strip.

If you can point me to threads of builds that made something similar or you have suggestion or different ideas easier that you think work better please i need advice on this.
Are you trying to make it fast to disconnect/connect for moving it?
If so, use a USB hub for all units on the rig, a powersupply spread cable, and a multi-pin connector for the shakers..

If not, the less connections the better. As directly cabled as possible, is the best
A USB hub is smart anyways though, to have less cables between the pc and rig.

And if you consider motion down later on, try to install cables with a lazy loop between rigid and moving parts of the rig.
 
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OlaGB

Premium
I got my DK2 this week, and have been running it for a few days now..

I do understand that it’s possible to make a really great tactile system with several size shakers, amps and software tuning, but this is SO much easier to do, and it really is _very_ good at tactile vibrations.
If you go deep into shakers, it’s going to cost about the same as well.

The motion system took me 1.5-2h of installation, software is very easy to set to youre liking, and it self detects what sim you are running. Couldnt be easier.

And it’s not loud at all. Was a bit worried of the noise level when watching videos, but it’s really quiet compared to that!

My 4 buttkicker lfe’s and 2 Nuke amps are now switched off for road surface / bumps / rumble strips etc, as the DK2 system does a _waay_ better job.
I have the lfe’s to do engine vibs still, while waiting for Sigma to finish that part of the software.. Then i will most likely only use the LFE’s for minor details just because i allready have them.

I tried to switch off the system after running it for a few hours, and set the lfe’s to do everything again, and the rig felt dull, boring and less detailed in comparison. But thats me, others might disagree.

7AF0D631-B019-4CEF-BC55-3561EEBA01EE.jpeg
 
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Pablo Roldan

Premium
Are you trying to make it fast to disconnect/connect for moving it?
If so, use a USB hub for all units on the rig, a powersupply spread cable, and a multi-pin connector for the shakers..

If not, the less connections the better. As directly cabled as possible, is the best
A USB hub is smart anyways though, to have less cables between the pc and rig.

And if you consider motion down later on, try to install cables with a lazy loop between rigid and moving parts of the rig.
What is a multi-pin connector?
 
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Pablo Roldan

Premium
I got my DK2 this week, and have been running it for a few days now..

I do understand that it’s possible to make a really great tactile system with several size shakers, amps and software tuning, but this is SO much easier to do, and it really is _very_ good at tactile vibrations.
If you go deep into shakers, it’s going to cost about the same as well.

The motion system took me 1.5-2h of installation, software is very easy to set to youre liking, and it self detects what sim you are running. Couldnt be easier.

And it’s not loud at all. Was a bit worried of the noise level when watching videos, but it’s really quiet compared to that!

My 4 buttkicker lfe’s and 2 Nuke amps are now switched off for road surface / bumps / rumble strips etc, as the DK2 system does a _waay_ better job.
I have the lfe’s to do engine vibs still, while waiting for Sigma to finish that part of the software.. Then i will most likely only use the LFE’s for minor details just because i allready have them.

I tried to switch off the system after running it for a few hours, and set the lfe’s to do everything again, and the rig felt dull, boring and less detailed in comparison. But thats me, others might disagree.
Congrats on your rig.

How is the feeling going up/down hills?
 
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OlaGB

Premium
Congrats on your rig.

How is the feeling going up/down hills?
Stock, the ‘Environment’ setting that simulates hills and banking, was at 5 of 10. Then the rig follows the terrain quite a bit. Too much for my taste, as it distracts me more than it amuses me, so i run it at 3.
Still i clearly sense going up/down/sidehill , but it’s not disturbing.

In Dirt 2.0 where theres more action, for me the 50mm travel is enough.
It’s not the impressive tivoli carusell for showing of to buddies, but its enough to read the terrain, feel the rush over jumps, and since the system is quick and strong it’s also enough to make you hold on tight when you see that ‘this is gonna hurt’ moment

I honestly have zero regrets for not going for more travel as of today.
But i might feel that way if i went for even less travel.
 
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My P1-X arrived a few days ago and I'm in the process of building it. Absolutely loving it so far, the adjustability is crazy and I've already been able to make a few little mods really easily that I wasn't otherwise able to do with my VR3 rig. I can now get a hybrid seating position with the pedals at their highest position and my GS5 seat tilted way back and on the lowest setting.

The only thing I don't like which Barry mentioned in his review is that the wheel deck comes in three separate pieces rather than all welded as one piece. It's an absolute pain to align and tighten correctly especially if you only have one pair of hands. Once it is all tightened up and aligned it's rock solid though.

However if someone shorter comes to to visit and try out the rig I might run into problems, so I might look at getting some 80/20 L handles to quickly slide the pedals back and forth on those rare occasions.

I want to avoid using seat and pedal sliders at all costs because I always notice the slack in them and they eventually irritate me.

New PC will arrive in the next week or two and then I'll be ready to try out the DK2
 
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Pablo Roldan

Premium
I have my PX-1 assembled.I am working with the tactile now.

I do not know what MrLatte RaceBass is about, but while waiting for it do you think something like in the image I quickly made with Photoshop would work fine?.

It would be just a metal plate under the seat resting over 4 vibration dampeners and a Buttkicker LFE and TST239 bolted underneath it.
 

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metalnwood

Premium
That looks fine, but I quite like how @TonyMM has done his. He uses four of the rubber bobbins like in the pic attached. He doesnt mount them directly to the seat but to the 4040 that eat sits on. I think this will give better stability to them.
bob.png
 
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