PC1 Let's give SMS a little credit here

[Damage Inc]

pCARS is a good sim, with flaws admittedly (which are not hidden and are discussed all over the internet), but is more or less 100% feature complete unlike other recent releases such as AC, R3 and I believe RF2 was not feature complete when released (although stand to be corrected). Xbone flaws are a mystery to all WMD members as we had nothing to do with that version at all. I believe SMS should get some credit for being a small team and releasing a complex game across 3 platforms (unlike the others mentioned) and as I say more or less feature complete.

It's not to everyone's personal tastes but tell me what is?

 

[John Peat]

Let's face it - whatever you think of the game (for the record, I think it's a decent if nothing amazing) SMS seem to have NO CONCEPT of PR or Customer Service and little awareness of how that makes them look.

Bell comes across as an arrogant sociopath - he apparently cannot understand that he owes people who funded/bought his game a finished product and that by delivering that he MIGHT get funding for the next one - nope, instead he just bans people who speak out and then asks them for cash? Heh...

SMS's approach is one of being overbearing trolls, their forum is an echo chamber and they allow (maybe even encourage) their staff to come to other forums and hammer-home aggressive/childish arguments - you cannot really wish them any level of success.

My suggestion they be a bit nicer to people, do a bit of PR etc, got me banned (of course) - it's probably too-late for that tho, I'm sure Mr Bell will rescue his stuff from the ashes of this company and make another one (as he's done at least twice before) - he won't get the £7m he's asking for the PC2 from this community tho - will he?

 

[Micas_WMD]

My suggestion they be a bit nicer to people, do a bit of PR etc, got me banned (of course) - it's probably too-late for that tho, I'm sure Mr Bell will rescue his stuff from the ashes of this company and make another one (as he's done at least twice before) - he won't get the £7m he's asking for the PC2 from this community tho - will he?

Its an interesting "suggestion", but how are you more qualified than Ian to be making those suggestions? I'm really curious about that.

Why on Earth would Ian need to 'rescue his stuff'? Is it because the first game was too successful?

And you have the completely wrong understanding of the £7m community pool. Ian doesn't need it. He's made it available to those who choose to participate. Heck, I suspect that the pCARS 1 Senior Managers (true investors) could buy about half that budget on our own. I know I want to flip as much as I can.

I just can't get over how backwards the thinking is. Ian doesn't have to do anything. He can fund pCARS 2 on his own. He doesn't need to involve the sim racing community in any capacity, WMD or otherwise. He doesn't need to offer perks, or make announcements, or take constructive design ideas, or make daily builds available, etc. He could be like every other company and go dark for a while, then release the game and keep all the money for his own company. Instead, he's doing the opposite. The grief he takes for doing so is stunning, but then, he's a smart guy. At first I thought the net dramas were counter-productive, but now realize they're quite helpful to success. So, thanks.

 

[Andy_J]

At first I thought the net dramas were counter-productive, but now realize they're quite helpful to success. So, thanks.

You are welcome.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

Its an interesting "suggestion", but how are you more qualified than Ian to be making those suggestions? I'm really curious about that.

Why on Earth would Ian need to 'rescue his stuff'? Is it because the first game was too successful?

And you have the completely wrong understanding of the £7m community pool. Ian doesn't need it. He's made it available to those who choose to participate. Heck, I suspect that the pCARS 1 Senior Managers (true investors) could buy about half that budget on our own. I know I want to flip as much as I can.

I just can't get over how backwards the thinking is. Ian doesn't have to do anything. He can fund pCARS 2 on his own. He doesn't need to involve the sim racing community in any capacity, WMD or otherwise. He doesn't need to offer perks, or make announcements, or take constructive design ideas, or make daily builds available, etc. He could be like every other company and go dark for a while, then release the game and keep all the money for his own company. Instead, he's doing the opposite. The grief he takes for doing so is stunning, but then, he's a smart guy. At first I thought the net dramas were counter-productive, but now realize they're quite helpful to success. So, thanks.

You seemed like a normal fellow in your posts, explaining stuff and being reasonably harsh, but lately, you're acting weird. What gives?

Also, nice PR is not really a suggestion, but common sense. Yes, you can flamebait and get the attention that way, as apparently it is the case right now, or be a nice person and gain attention that way, while making almost everybody happy.

 

[John Peat]

Its an interesting "suggestion", but how are you more qualified than Ian to be making those suggestions? I'm really curious about that.

I wan't claiming to be qualified at anything - I posted what a PR person would have posted, the sort of thing you say to customers when they ask a question.

I wasn't suggesting he should grovel and as he appears to have an issue with 'sorry' he didn't even have to say that - but his answer was "it was a mistake - nothing to do with me - get over it" which isn't what people expect to hear from someone in his position.

I don't like PR-speak anymore than anyone else does, but when people are angry/upset/peeved, the best response is to be polite, constructive and helpful - it's hard to be angry with someone who's being nice - it's easy to stay angry with people who blow-off your issue and/or say it's not their fault (if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all)

 

[John Peat]

To the WMD people in particular - a serious point I'd like to make.

Take a look at Dirt Rally - a game launched onto Steam Early Access with no PR fanfare, no years of videos and previews etc. etc.

Despite it's Early Access status, they've had a fair bit of flack over some stuff (esp FFB) - but their community team has worked really hard to get people back-on-side and the game has sold REALLY well as a result of their efforts.

Videos like this won't have done any harm...
<mod-edit: you can post your videos here http://www.racedepartment.com/media/ . Media moved there.>

Now, SteamSpy suggests sales around 95,000 copies for Dirt Rally - it suggests sales around 190,000 for Project Cars - even if those figures are wrong, the proportions won't be

To clarify - Codemasters shifted half-as-many copies of a clearly unfinished game with NO Advertising, NO years of teaser videos etc. - and they have more stuff to add and an actual "release" to come yet

This is what happens when you have a proper community/PR effort - when you respond to issues, encourage positive feedback and don't just ban anyone who says anything you disagree with.

Note: Codemasters have a history of releasing games which the community felt were unfinished and often never fixed them (esp the F1 games) - but here we have them doing "community/PR" right and I think the result is sales WAY over what they expected.

The Internet has many, many ways to assess/review/feedback on games - you can't control it all - you can't argue it all down and you can't ban everyone who disagrees with you - the racing community is small, you can't upset a big chunk of it and expect to sell many games.

 

[Zytok]

Andy/Emerson whatever the hell your name is, please stop calling everyone who chipped in an "investor" it's getting tiring. I spent some money to play/playtest a game nothing more.
Micas might not have but he's special

 

[Arne Dopudja]

To the WMD people in particular - a serious point I'd like to make.

Take a look at Dirt Rally - a game launched onto Steam Early Access with no PR fanfare, no years of videos and previews etc. etc.

Despite it's Early Access status, they've had a fair bit of flack over some stuff (esp FFB) - but their community team has worked really hard to get people back-on-side and the game has sold REALLY well as a result of their efforts.

Videos like this won't have done any harm...

Now, SteamSpy suggests sales around 95,000 copies for Dirt Rally - it suggests sales around 190,000 for Project Cars - even if those figures are wrong, the proportions won't be

To clarify - Codemasters shifted half-as-many copies of a clearly unfinished game with NO Advertising, NO years of teaser videos etc. - and they have more stuff to add and an actual "release" to come yet

This is what happens when you have a proper community/PR effort - when you respond to issues, encourage positive feedback and don't just ban anyone who says anything you disagree with.

Note: Codemasters have a history of releasing games which the community felt were unfinished and often never fixed them (esp the F1 games) - but here we have them doing "community/PR" right and I think the result is sales WAY over what they expected.

The Internet has many, many ways to assess/review/feedback on games - you can't control it all - you can't argue it all down and you can't ban everyone who disagrees with you - the racing community is small, you can't upset a big chunk of it and expect to sell many games.

This exactly. Bear in mind that the "kiddie" content ala RX is yet to come. That will boost the sales even more. And so on and so forth.

A dog that barks, doesn't bite. CM are no such dog in this case.

 

[LacSlyer]

To the WMD people in particular - a serious point I'd like to make.

Take a look at Dirt Rally - a game launched onto Steam Early Access with no PR fanfare, no years of videos and previews etc. etc.

Despite it's Early Access status, they've had a fair bit of flack over some stuff (esp FFB) - but their community team has worked really hard to get people back-on-side and the game has sold REALLY well as a result of their efforts.

Videos like this won't have done any harm...

Now, SteamSpy suggests sales around 95,000 copies for Dirt Rally - it suggests sales around 190,000 for Project Cars - even if those figures are wrong, the proportions won't be

To clarify - Codemasters shifted half-as-many copies of a clearly unfinished game with NO Advertising, NO years of teaser videos etc. - and they have more stuff to add and an actual "release" to come yet

This is what happens when you have a proper community/PR effort - when you respond to issues, encourage positive feedback and don't just ban anyone who says anything you disagree with.

Note: Codemasters have a history of releasing games which the community felt were unfinished and often never fixed them (esp the F1 games) - but here we have them doing "community/PR" right and I think the result is sales WAY over what they expected.

The Internet has many, many ways to assess/review/feedback on games - you can't control it all - you can't argue it all down and you can't ban everyone who disagrees with you - the racing community is small, you can't upset a big chunk of it and expect to sell many games.

This is something SMS hasn't really taken into account. Word of mouth, especially in a tight-knit community like sim racing, does a hell of a lot more than flat out marketing, especially the marketing they take advantage of with their community. And while the marketing push from the first game was successful, I'm not so certain it'll work with a second game considering the issues the first had, and still has, as well as the often erratic behavior of their community to disregard anyone who disagrees with them.

I honestly think that they'll be incredibly disappointed when they come to realize that a second game developed and marketed with this method won't work out as well. Especially if their focus is going to be the sim racing market and not a more casual player base, both of which the first game took advantage.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

This is something SMS hasn't really taken into account. Word of mouth, especially in a tight-knit community like sim racing, does a hell of a lot more than flat out marketing, especially the marketing they take advantage of with their community. And while the marketing push from the first game was successful, I'm not so certain it'll work with a second game considering the issues the first had, and still has, as well as the often erratic behavior of their community to disregard anyone who disagrees with them.

I honestly think that they'll be incredibly disappointed when they come to realize that a second game developed and marketed with this method won't work out as well. Especially if their focus is going to be the sim racing market and not a more casual player base, both of which the first game took advantage.

Don't be so sure that they will be disappointed. The coop and various features (Like proper replay and spectate options, driver swaps, just the things we need in simracing, who would of thought, eh?) alone will yet again hype millions into buying the game. The only people that can be disappointed are buyers, yet again. But maybe this time around it will be better, hopefully.

 

[c172fccc]

Now, SteamSpy suggests sales around 95,000 copies for Dirt Rally - it suggests sales around 190,000 for Project Cars - even if those figures are wrong, the proportions won't be

Yeah, but the thing is that pCARS is also available on consoles, which Dirt Rally is not at the moment. If pCARS was a pc only game, it would have a lot of more sale on Steam for sure.

I agree that what Codemaster is doing right now is very good, I'm happy to see that their efforts pay off.

 

[Andy_J]

Andy/Emerson whatever the hell your name is, please stop calling everyone who chipped in an "investor" it's getting tiring. I spent some money to play/playtest a game nothing more.
Micas might not have but he's special

Zytok, whatever the hell your name is, nope. I'll call them investors because essentially that's what they are. You better get more sleep if you are getting tired of it. It was an investment scheme.

ps, can I ask you why some of these game spoiling bugs weren't discovered prior to launch? Did you not notice them in your daily builds?

 

[John Peat]

can I ask you why some of these game spoiling bugs weren't discovered prior to launch? Did you not notice them in your daily builds?

According to some other forums I've read, if you posted about "known issues" or "missing features" you were branded "too negative" and your posts were removed or your account banned entirely for repeat offences - so it's likely that they "didn't hear" a lot of what people were saying.

 

[Zytok]

Again, just to clear things up. Contrary to popular opinion, no-one has ever been banned for simply reporting an issue or requesting a feature. What people have been banned for is repeatedly demanding a feature or otherwise being considered disruptive or rude. Posts reporting a known issue may have been moved to another section of the forums or people may have sometimes been told to "read the thread first".

We were always told that the official forum was not a normal forum and to look on it as a virtual office so as in a real office, people who stand on desks shouting are told to pipe down or leave.
In reply to Emerson, there were a lot of issues that were reported (probably more than SMS could handle) and we were usually told that they would be fixed in due course. The SMS forums however could be very chaotic at times and this is something that they are supposed to be sorting for PC2.

Ideally, I guess the game could have benefitted from another 6 months of testing/fixing but bills need to be paid and they'd already gone over-budget so I presume they figured they had to get it out and patch it later.

Personally I'm surprised that they are letting people post at the entry price this time around as with one or two major exceptions it tended to be the lowest tiers that caused the most problems with leaks and "whining".

 

[AndrewBo]

Wow. Here at RaceDepartment we don't take any money from ppl that like to post in our Forum.
Well, maybe we .......................
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.
.
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Nope.

 

[Zytok]

maybe you should, it'd help to pay the server bills

 

[John Peat]

"Are you angry about something in a racing game - do you want to?"

A - Discuss it - Free Membership
B - Discuss it in a heated manner - Premium Membership required
C - RAAAAAAAAAAGE - £50 Bronze Membership Required

 

[Andy_J]

maybe you should, it'd help to pay the server bills

Us proper members do help pay the server bills.

 

[Zytok]

aww bless.

 

[Andy_J]

aww bless.

Atypical. Go and troll elsewhere or go back to your WMD masters if you have nothing to contribute here.