Is VR dead?

[o Tiger Feet o]

Is it possible that we are individually susceptible to SDE in different ways or that the headsets themselves vary in terms of quality of display?

I have been told that people that have had replacement units that the SDE has varied.

I wouldn't say mine is bad, it's just there. If I had used any other headset other than the O+ it probably wouldn't even be an issue.

Ive tried the Steam trick and every combo of setting s but as suspected none of it alters the STE. ....just to note In some cases the SDE can give the impression something is sharper too.

I think ultimately, for me, coming from the O+ it's a sideways move and not an upgrade. If I was coming from a Vive or original Rift I think I would be more amazed by the Pimax

One thing that did surprise me is just how well the Pimax runs on my machine. (1080ti). Pitools must be pulling off a few tricks behind the scenes.

@EsxPaul don't let me put you off at least trying for yourself . (With Amazon you can now do that). I'm beginning to think my failing relationship with Pimax is the typical

" it's not you, it's me"

 

[EsxPaul]

I can't be certain but I think there is some merit in thinking that we are all more or less sensitive to SDE.

The very first impression I had when I put on my OG Odyssey was one of dissapointment. I remember thinking how great the picture was but such a shame that it was being seen through some kind of tightly meshed net. It was the the very first thing that struck me and it took me about a week or so for my brain to somehow ignore it. From that point on it just seemed to go away for me even though in reality nothing had changed.

I then had my nephew try it out and he couldn't notice the screen door at all, even when I was stood next to him and describing in detail exactly what he should be looking for.

Go figure

 

[RCHeliguy]

First room scale headset, 50% of PC VR users, first higher res gen and a half HMD, first mass produced HMD with eye tracking, wireless link...

And finally Cosmos with HMD cameras that can actually be used for tracking and not just as some cosmetic ornaments. I know, blasphemy.

That is the sad thing about all of this. They create something, but it still isn't quite right.

They were first to market and at one point had a lead, but they lost it when more polished solutions came out.

They offered many upgrades over time to improve or fill holes. Like their advanced headphones option. I wasn't until the Vive Pro that they finally had a complete headset.

As I already said, they "should" have been the enthusiast's choice. Somehow their products never come together to be more than the sum of their parts.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Paul, I don't think I noticed the SDE much at first, and in game I usually forget about it unless I think about it.

However now that I have cranked up SS and have very solid 90 fps everything looks better and I'm noticing the SDE more. Hopefully in a month or so the Index will drop this down to barely noticeable for me.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

That is the sad thing about all of this. They create something, but it still isn't quite right.

They were first to market and at one point had a lead, but they lost it when more polished solutions came out.

When you say 'came out', past tense, what specific HMDs you have in mind?

 

[RCHeliguy]

So the Vive came out with hand controllers first, but they weren't very good. They had great tracking, but their headset was heavy and without headphones.

The Rift came out later with hand controllers but they were excellent and it's built in headphones were good. The tracking was not Vive quality but quite good. When they dropped their price they quickly outstripped the Vive in sales.

When the Vive Pro came out they were still very pricey, still had the wand controllers. This was over a year before the knuckles were released which I hoped would make their system the enthusiasts choice, but the knuckles were still evolving.

Then the WMR headsets came out at a low price point. The VIve was the only expensive game in town and wasn't compelling enough to justify the extra expense.

Since then the Pimax has released a headset at a higher price point with large Field of View, the second manufacturer with a headset in that eco system that was arguably more of an enthusiast headset.

Now Valve has the Index which is the most refined full system out in that ecosystem and StarVR hopefully in the wings.

So where does this leave HTC Vive?

Well Oculus is focused on the lower end and selling two stand alone systems and an inside out PC headset. Where is HTC?

The Index is getting rave reviews at the higher end and others are going after resolution only solutions. Where is HTC?

My earlier point confirmed. They continue to miss the boat and have nothing compelling in any market. Despite some real innovations, they have not ever gotten any whole package right.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

So many things are wrong in that list of yours. And most importantly you didn't list a single HMD that has all the features HTC has in a single package.
You mentioned though (no surprise) your magical Index unicorn again, guess you are just not as interested in discussing anything else as any thread you post in ends up with that.
Could as well just create "Index worshiping" thread to keep it all there.
Not sure why you are so hard on trying to convince yourself and others that it is the best thing since sliced bread. You don't even have one yet, nobody does.

 

[HugoB]

Yea but only a bunch of youtube guys have anything right now, people discussing here only have last gen HMD’s so until we have the new stuff in our hands, it’s just parroting opinions from youtubers.

But if you go by positive reports of Index, you can’t disagree that it’s a killer HMD, by the looks. The alternatives can all have one thing better but a lot of things worse, or nothing better, or two things better but more things worse. Put any HMD on a scale with the Index and Index most always comes out an overall winner (by what we know, of course we’ll need to try for ourselves to be sure of anything). I don’t care which HMD will win, I will just buy the best. I have no sentiment towards any manufacturer, I have no loyalty whatsoever. But just going by specs and preliminary reviews alone, it’s hard not to be excited about the Index and it was the reason why I thought: fck it, I’ll just preorder and see for myself.

The reason I haven’t yet bought the Reverb is because there are too many negatives and problems surrounding it that don’t give me the decisive confidence to be an early adopter.

As soon as the StarVR hits the market, I’ll buy it first second, there’s just too much positive rave about it that it could ever be a disappointment.

Of course I’m not happy about the Index’s low res panels, but that’s actually the only thing I’m not happy about. And because I’m coming from a Rift CV1, I’m sure it will still be an improvement (as long as I haven’t tried higher res).

If Reverb’s high res panels prove to be so much of a plus compared to Index’s, that it outweighs all the negatives, and objective, non sponsored reviews confirm it cannot be ignored, I’ll buy the Reverb to see for myself, and keep the best one.

Nobody likes fanboyism, but nobody likes unsubstantiated bashing either.

We’re all just parroting now, in a few months the cold hard truth will be revealed and disputes will be settled.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Exactly HugoB,

After getting the Rift I considered getting a Vive Pro, but was waiting for the Knuckles controllers to drop. A Vive Pro with Knuckles would have been a good complete package for me. It never happened.

I even considered the original Odyssey when it was first released, but once again couldn't get past the controllers or tracking which has made every WMR a nogo for me personally since then. I'm not suggesting it's not a good solution for others. Obviously it is.

And yes I'm very excited about the Index. I don't pre-order new products as a rule of thumb. I generally want to see how a product is recieved. It always is a good rule of thumb.

I've only done this a few times when I see something that is absolutely compelling. To date I've done this 3 times and have had a 100% track record when I do this.

Obviously that track record only has meaning to me. I'm sorry of I'm overly effusive about the Index. I'm certain I'll be happy with it, but it is the only product out there that checks all my boxes. Nothing else comes close.

I would consider a StarVR in the future using my base stations and Index controllers. They claim to be working on an audio solution which I expect would also be top notch. When that is released, I'll likely jump at it. I also want to see them become a bit more solvent.

I'm not remotely saying the Index is a forever headset, but it will take me to the next level and be a great ecosystem to support the next best of breed HMD when it arrives.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Valve has Index reviews embargo until June 28th (official release date), what you see on youtube or anywhere else are just sponsored "previews", don't expect to see fully honest opinions.
It could be a nice headset but definitely not a giant killer as Valve trying to picture it, especially in the light of other upcoming offerings.

 

[RCHeliguy]

What upcoming offerings?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Someone does not read this thread.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Someone does not read this thread.

So no real completion until the StarVR is released? Got it, but that still isn't a complete system, it still would require half of the Index system.

Giving I'm looking for a full system, there is nothing in the pipeline.

If you are only looking for an HMD with no concern for hand controllers, there are other options coming. All have deal breakers for me.

 

[HoiHman]

I'm expecting the Reverb will have the slight edge for me over the Index.

3 reasons
- Highest Resolution
- Headset style resembles the oculus one
- Over ear audio
- No light house 2.0 EMI issues

But like mentioned before, not all "reviews" we have seen are completely unbiased. The only way to really judge is, is to try yourself.

I currently use the Oculus CV1 without a facial interface and have it hanging in front of my face without touchting it. I'm expecting the special bracket i made for the CV1 to fit for the reverb with none or almost none modification.

The Index will require some more adjustements and trial and error the achieve the save result, also the Index will need adapters to make the audio over ear to overcome the noise of the motion. Finally the Index also needs mouting points for the light houses.

Yes i ordered 2 light houses, because like with the Pimax and the Valvve Pro, there's a change that the Index will be troubled with EMI tracking issues. So i'm saying the second light house will solve that, but at least i will have it in stock, to give it a try.

In short it will be a lot of work to get the Index working to my liking, but if it's the better headset, no problem it will be worth it.

I have been waiting for 3 years for a meaningfull upgrade.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Another tease on Cosmos. Sounds very promising.

You’ll also immediately spot the multitude of cameras, which point not only to mixed reality applications, but also to inside-out tracking. I think we can safely declare external motion trackers a dead technology now.

Can't agree more on that, seems like we have only one company still clinging to that old tech.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Until something better comes out.

I agree that eventually inside out will win, but to date even Oculus hasn't pulled it off. The Go, Quest and Rift S are all still a step down from the old Rift cameras never mind base stations.

Maybe HTC will make a huge advance in that space, but I'll believe that when I see it, and it would currently take a huge advance just to reach parity.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Detailed breakdown on features and some speculations, little outdated from CES 2019 but still okay for refresh course on what to expect.

I can even see what looks like IPD adjustment dial on this picture. And the cameras, they are huge comparing to what I have on Odyssey, that means more coverage, that is better tracking, hopefully.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Andrew, I sincerely hope they bat a home run!

They really need one.

For inside out to hold up for room scale gaming and from a coverage only standpoint they need a camera on the back of the headset strap and dome cameras that extend out possibly from the headphones to each side. That still wouldn't be parity, but it might be close enough. There will still be blind spot issues.

From an accuracy stand point, they will still need a breakthrough to reach parity.

They may have reached decent latency, but I haven't seen numbers yet.

External trackers are still not compatible, but I'll admit they are only used in a niche as small as sim racing is mostly for combat games with full sized gun controls.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

You must be overthinking it, considering that just two tiny cameras on WMR work just fine for 95% of controllers tracking cases and 100% for head tracking, that little extra should be plenty for 99.99% of users. Not saying that there is no small segment interested in 1mm room scale accuracy tracking.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Most people I know doing room scale gaming do not consider WMR controllers anything but frustrating to use.

I now people who use Odysseys for display only usage, but put the Odyssey in the corner and use their Rift for room scale tracking. Everyone I know who has compared them side my side think the WMR hand tracking and controllers basically suck. I've heard much stronger language.

I know I would have given up on room scale gaming if WMR was as good as it gets.

Of the 5 people I know personally who have run both systems, every single one of them came to this conclusion. My gut feeling is that most people who think WMR hand tracking and controls are decent have never felt how good hand tracking and controls can feel.