PC1 Is Project Cars realistic?
- Thread starter Dan Allen
- Start date
How rude!
Show me where he was calling for a dumbing down?
He just says he likes all racing games.
Just like me, I want serious sims to be serious sims, and fun games to be fun games, and I have time and place in my life for both. I'm sorry you don't.
That's you once again trying to put people down for things they've not even said.
You really really can't hear yourself can you?
If by incompetent you mean selling million+ copies of a popular and liked game (not by you admittedly, but there does seem to be a lot of us that do enjoy it), then sure.
Of course it has it's moaners, but so does every game I've read anything about for the last 10 years, there's a significant number of gamers for every title that will never ever be satisfied, same as in every other walk of life.
As for them not making a "Sim", A: that's your opinion (I disagree) and B: they took Shift2 and added more Sim features than any of us could have hoped for given the starting point and that they HAD to target casual gamers at the same time to make the sales otherwise the investment wouldn't have been worth it and there'd have been no game.
Its simple economics. See above.
Show me where he was calling for a dumbing down?
He just says he likes all racing games.
Just like me, I want serious sims to be serious sims, and fun games to be fun games, and I have time and place in my life for both. I'm sorry you don't.
That's you once again trying to put people down for things they've not even said.
You really really can't hear yourself can you?
If by incompetent you mean selling million+ copies of a popular and liked game (not by you admittedly, but there does seem to be a lot of us that do enjoy it), then sure.
Of course it has it's moaners, but so does every game I've read anything about for the last 10 years, there's a significant number of gamers for every title that will never ever be satisfied, same as in every other walk of life.
As for them not making a "Sim", A: that's your opinion (I disagree) and B: they took Shift2 and added more Sim features than any of us could have hoped for given the starting point and that they HAD to target casual gamers at the same time to make the sales otherwise the investment wouldn't have been worth it and there'd have been no game.
Its simple economics. See above.
You only list 2 titles is that all you care for is 2 titles?
You are really good with creating assaumptions and you know what people say about those but that's not me that's you. The only thing dummed down are your overall interest in the genre as a whole and you try to speak for every serious sim racer don't shovel out so much disrespect for others doing their own thing. Your comparable to a bug on a water buffalo's butt and will never change.
Your Words
Btw, the community JUSTIFIABLY gave SMS kaka for not only failing to produce a sim, but also producing a game in worse shape than when under the supposed command of EA/Big publisher, iow, SMS are incompetent, and have proved it over and over.
So who here thinks the Shift titles are better then pCARS? Or is it just David's clueless trolling?
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Here we go again, and buggered if I know why, but we have fanboys defending incompetent devs.
LOL, most people consider rf2 the goto hardcore sim, so go over to ISI forums and tell all of those technically minded people that the simcadey pcars is really a sim and see how it goes down.....bet ya won't, lol.
LOL, most people consider rf2 the goto hardcore sim, so go over to ISI forums and tell all of those technically minded people that the simcadey pcars is really a sim and see how it goes down.....bet ya won't, lol.
No, because I would never go pimping another title over at ISI due to the respect I have for them and their team.
But that's because I like RF2.
If I didn't like RF2 I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time over there telling them they're all fanboys for liking something I don't.
But I know you don't get it.
I wouldn't say SMS are incompetent. I think they quite successfully achieved their real objective of creating a pretty racing game with sim'ish handling but most importantly a vehicle to push DLC.
I don't think SMS ever said they were trying to compete with or topple hardcore pc sims like RF, RF2, Iracing, GSCE, etc. I think the annoying thing is the fanboys that want to elevate Pcars to the level of a hardcore sim when it was never meant to be.
Is Pcars handling more realist than GT/Forza? Definitely. Is Pcars handling as realistic as the hardcore pc sims? Definitely not. Is Pcars a fun racing game that is close enough to realistic handling yet still able to make an average driver feel like a hero? Yes...... Just get off in the grass one time and you will see the grip is almost as much as the tarmac and the car will slow down like a dragster that pulled it's parachute. Yeah... real hardcore there!
I totally get why so many people love this game and why people love GT/Forza and I also understand why many people dislike and get frustrated with hardcore sims. Hardcore sims are not for everybody or even most people. Hardcore sims don't care that the driver is missing the gforces that a real life car driver would feel and missing the 3 dimensional depth perception due to flat 2d monitors. These 2 issues alone make correct levels of grip seem very slippery because perceived sense of speed is way off and seat of the pants feel for grip is non-existent. Fudging the grip levels up fools the mind to make up for these two sensory inputs that are missing.
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"Fanboys defending incompetent devs"
Hmm you are totally warped! the only reason you post in the pCARS forum is to troll and put down the people who like this game. Your a sad individual who needs your posting privileges revoked where it concerns the pCARS forum. So you can learn how to post correctly in forums for titles you actually own and like.
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No. This is simply not true. They basically said that they think most of the so called "hard-core" simulators has got it wrong (remember, this is more than 4 years ago when it started and iRacing was just completing it's first revision of the NTM and was still running the highly flawed and unrealistic OTM on most cars!!). They were convinced that real cars, driven by real racing drivers, would not be so idiotically unpredictable and badly handling. The whole debate on this started during the development of GT 2 due to the amount of feedback from Henrik Roos.
The truly annoying thing is that the actual developers, the coders, AJ the physics coder set out to create the most realistic tire model you can possibly create with the given CPU budget of today's processors and yet the marketing team kept trying to downplay it and tried to keep the GT/Forza crowd calm by stating that they are not going for ultra realism.
What's even more annoying is that the people you call fanboys, who keep insisting on originally intended realism of pCars, are actually correct. They got their information from the WMD forums during development and have thus seen all the various mutations of the tire model. Hence they KNOW for certain that the stuff was never intentionally dumbed down (only the default car setups were tweaked to make the cars be more docile and thus easier to control for people driving with controllers). Heck, some revisions of the tires were by far the most difficult to drive in any simulator ever created.. and crazy as it sounds, some people liked those tire models and thought "yes! this is ultra realism!!!".. only to have Ben Collins and Nicholas Hamilton go "WTF is this ****??".
You make such a claim. Now back it up with real numbers. People keep insisting that it's not but please, could you perhaps be the first person to properly back this up with REAL data, real numbers? You do understand that there is full telemetry available? We also know that the GT3 cars in AC (if that's a sim you think is "real hardcore") have more peak grip than in pCars.
We also know that AC and iRacing have both become a lot more progressive in their tire model for each successive update.. basically meaning they become a lot closer to the progressive grip falloff and heating model of pCars. At least iRacing, in it's early NTM revisions was so way off that it wasn't even funny. The grip progression there was non-existent and completely and utterly flawed (heck, even admitted so by the developers themselves). Does this mean that you still insist on iRacing being more realistic than pCars 3 years ago?
My point is this: You make a strong statement. Quantify it. Back it up with data please, then explain why all the other simulators have become closer to pCars handling over the years (yes, this includes rF2 as well which had quite a few tweaks since it's official release for alpha/beta or whatever it is now).
I play all of these magnificent games of ours but I just can not understand some of you guys logic. It just doesn't make any sense. You just broadly throw pCars under some kind of moniker.. "yes it is more realistic than GT/Forza but no.. it is nowhere near as realistic as hard-core sim titles". It's absurd. A philosopher would have a field day with the logic.
So in the end it boils down to some kind of feeling of belonging somewhere? You want to feel like you "belong" in a group of "special" people, while completely disregarding real world physics and reality. Is that it? Again, we know, for a fact, that the iRacing OTM was extremely flawed (it was amazing for it's time, in GPL.. 1998!!). Dave Kaemmer himself has said it on numerous occasions (thus defending his NTM). Yet you want us to believe that pCars was/is less realistic?
As for the "Fudging the grip levels up fools the mind to make up for these two sensory inputs that are missing." is a complete load of bollocks. Another myth that people keep stating on various forums. It is very simple: We have proper telemetry in all of the simulators. Just look at the data. If the data makes sense and compares pretty well with real life data, then it's pretty close to reality. If peak grip is somewhat within reality then it's good. Granted, it's a lot more difficult to measure the tire progression and how a tire breaks away (it's the black-magic part and not even Ferrari with their super computers can get it exactly right) but at least you can look at real racing drivers throttle and break plots over a course. If those match relatively closely then you have a fairly decent simulation.
Final disclaimer: Look, I'm not going to say pCars is perfect. It's not. Far from it. There are some truly strange things in the physics of various components and the tire model, while complex, is definitely far from perfection. But it aggravates me how so many people can be so blind. We have all these weird physics from various iterations of rF2, AC and iRacing, yet they get complete cart blanche on these forums. Nobody even questions them in the context of pCars (and it's mainly these forums for some weird reason.. people on iRacing forums are highly critical and attentive of the defects in their own beloved sim). It's just bizarre. pCars has an incredibly complex tire model with properly separated parts of the tire. The rim is simulated, the carcass, the inner ring/rubber, the air temp and pressure within this all.. heck even the elasticity of the carcass and how it is affected by flash heating (rapid heating) is simulated.. all the way to flat spotting and grinding down the rubber. Why this SIMULATOR is completely pissed upon here is just weird..
.. not that it really bothers me all that much (even though I may come off that way hah!). I just happen to have a free evening and nothing interesting is on telly. In fact, I think I'll be off to drive some more AC. Haven't tried the La Ferrari with the new tires yet.
No. This is simply not true. They basically said that they think most of the so called "hard-core" simulators has got it wrong (remember, this is more than 4 years ago when it started and iRacing was just completing it's first revision of the NTM and was still running the highly flawed and unrealistic OTM on most cars!!). They were convinced that real cars, driven by real racing drivers, would not be so idiotically unpredictable and badly handling. The whole debate on this started during the development of GT 2 due to the amount of feedback from Henrik Roos.
The truly annoying thing is that the actual developers, the coders, AJ the physics coder set out to create the most realistic tire model you can possibly create with the given CPU budget of today's processors and yet the marketing team kept trying to downplay it and tried to keep the GT/Forza crowd calm by stating that they are not going for ultra realism.
What's even more annoying is that the people you call fanboys, who keep insisting on originally intended realism of pCars, are actually correct. They got their information from the WMD forums during development and have thus seen all the various mutations of the tire model. Hence they KNOW for certain that the stuff was never intentionally dumbed down (only the default car setups were tweaked to make the cars be more docile and thus easier to control for people driving with controllers). Heck, some revisions of the tires were by far the most difficult to drive in any simulator ever created.. and crazy as it sounds, some people liked those tire models and thought "yes! this is ultra realism!!!".. only to have Ben Collins and Nicholas Hamilton go "WTF is this ****??".
You make such a claim. Now back it up with real numbers. People keep insisting that it's not but please, could you perhaps be the first person to properly back this up with REAL data, real numbers? You do understand that there is full telemetry available? We also know that the GT3 cars in AC (if that's a sim you think is "real hardcore") have more peak grip than in pCars.
We also know that AC and iRacing have both become a lot more progressive in their tire model for each successive update.. basically meaning they become a lot closer to the progressive grip falloff and heating model of pCars. At least iRacing, in it's early NTM revisions was so way off that it wasn't even funny. The grip progression there was non-existent and completely and utterly flawed (heck, even admitted so by the developers themselves). Does this mean that you still insist on iRacing being more realistic than pCars 3 years ago?
My point is this: You make a strong statement. Quantify it. Back it up with data please, then explain why all the other simulators have become closer to pCars handling over the years (yes, this includes rF2 as well which had quite a few tweaks since it's official release for alpha/beta or whatever it is now).
I play all of these magnificent games of ours but I just can not understand some of you guys logic. It just doesn't make any sense. You just broadly throw pCars under some kind of moniker.. "yes it is more realistic than GT/Forza but no.. it is nowhere near as realistic as hard-core sim titles". It's absurd. A philosopher would have a field day with the logic.
So in the end it boils down to some kind of feeling of belonging somewhere? You want to feel like you "belong" in a group of "special" people, while completely disregarding real world physics and reality. Is that it? Again, we know, for a fact, that the iRacing OTM was extremely flawed (it was amazing for it's time, in GPL.. 1998!!). Dave Kaemmer himself has said it on numerous occasions (thus defending his NTM). Yet you want us to believe that pCars was/is less realistic?
As for the "Fudging the grip levels up fools the mind to make up for these two sensory inputs that are missing." is a complete load of bollocks. Another myth that people keep stating on various forums. It is very simple: We have proper telemetry in all of the simulators. Just look at the data. If the data makes sense and compares pretty well with real life data, then it's pretty close to reality. If peak grip is somewhat within reality then it's good. Granted, it's a lot more difficult to measure the tire progression and how a tire breaks away (it's the black-magic part and not even Ferrari with their super computers can get it exactly right) but at least you can look at real racing drivers throttle and break plots over a course. If those match relatively closely then you have a fairly decent simulation.
Final disclaimer: Look, I'm not going to say pCars is perfect. It's not. Far from it. There are some truly strange things in the physics of various components and the tire model, while complex, is definitely far from perfection. But it aggravates me how so many people can be so blind. We have all these weird physics from various iterations of rF2, AC and iRacing, yet they get complete cart blanche on these forums. Nobody even questions them in the context of pCars (and it's mainly these forums for some weird reason.. people on iRacing forums are highly critical and attentive of the defects in their own beloved sim). It's just bizarre. pCars has an incredibly complex tire model with properly separated parts of the tire. The rim is simulated, the carcass, the inner ring/rubber, the air temp and pressure within this all.. heck even the elasticity of the carcass and how it is affected by flash heating (rapid heating) is simulated.. all the way to flat spotting and grinding down the rubber. Why this SIMULATOR is completely pissed upon here is just weird..
.. not that it really bothers me all that much (even though I may come off that way hah!). I just happen to have a free evening and nothing interesting is on telly. In fact, I think I'll be off to drive some more AC. Haven't tried the La Ferrari with the new tires yet.
People who have been doing this for a long time have been brainwashed by the physics in the sims of yesteryear and see this as the way it's suppose to be. I agree pCARS is more sim then people would like to think or even admit when I can compare it to GTR2. They may say the same things about that title as well? Who knows but camping out in the pCARS forum with the intent of putting it and it's users down and have been camped out here for 4 years in this forum is just mentally sick! Narrow mindedness at it's best. I don't care if they like rF2 better I like it but it just has not evolved into a title I spend a lot of time with. Have they (speaking of tires) found a balance in the even newer tire model yes I think they have but people were defending the last version tire model that rF2 had at release and it was quite flawed(cold tire bug and poor heating model). Now it's pretty damn good but don't tell these trolls here that because they still want to think of me as a Fanboy when I'm not. I like many titles for different reasons but they just can't understand that concept.
What about the crazy off track grip levels?...people have made vidoes exposing that, so does the telemetry match rl there?
Maybe pcars tyre model is decent, but it's suspension and braking models suck.
Maybe pcars tyre model is decent, but it's suspension and braking models suck.
Notice the difference in language between the pro pcars camp and those who dare criticize it?....I'm guilty of such crimes against humanity as calling someone a casual gamer, yet in return I'm labeled mentally ill.
As I've said many times, it's always the pcars investors who want to silence or discredit people, and WMD portal is a prime example of this dispicable behaviour.
As I've said many times, it's always the pcars investors who want to silence or discredit people, and WMD portal is a prime example of this dispicable behaviour.
"Despicable"
If you could manage to make more than a couple of sentences without insulting the games fans (I wasn't in WMD) then we could probably have a decent discussion about the games strengths and weaknesses.
Sadly you don't seem able, constantly returning to this thread like some addict to add more insults.
David Cordell posted a thought out and friendly explanation of his views, and you don't see a single person attacking him, they might disagree with his views, but no-ones being rude to him, simply because he wasn't rude to anyone else.
Perhaps there's a lesson there.
If you could manage to make more than a couple of sentences without insulting the games fans (I wasn't in WMD) then we could probably have a decent discussion about the games strengths and weaknesses.
Sadly you don't seem able, constantly returning to this thread like some addict to add more insults.
David Cordell posted a thought out and friendly explanation of his views, and you don't see a single person attacking him, they might disagree with his views, but no-ones being rude to him, simply because he wasn't rude to anyone else.
Perhaps there's a lesson there.
No actually you are. Or that the only sim racers that count are the hardcore crowd which many of those play pCARS as well.
Actually think of this forum as the corner bar where most of the patrons are pCARS fans and then walk into said bar throwing around the insults that you do I think you would get your butt whipped pretty quick. As you throw around words people will fight over. I don't think you should be removed from this site but be removed from this forum related to pCARS(because your only intent is to troll) and the works of SMS because for four years now you have been trying to crap
it up pretty good. You have a chip on your shoulder where it concerns this material and you need to steer clear of the discussions about it. Neither you or David Cordell(even though I don't think Cordell's only intent is to troll the discussion) contribute to this site but are very active to try to bring the quality of the discussions down for those that do contribute to this site.Yes I agree Mr. Cordell brings up things to debate rather then being generalized about everything but on many occasions has not been accurate like he is repeating what other people say rather then first hand experience with the game. I personally think he does not own the game or has played the most recent patched version as the game is as much sim as GTR2 or Race 07 or R3E or Assetto Corsa for that matter. However it seems more people go out of there way to try to label it simcade then these other titles. I agree there are things that are arcade like not being able to shut off auto pit lane, not having a rev limiter, not being able to make a pit stop in practice mode, and some of the way the garage setup area values are designed as basic sliders and not using values representative of RL but as for the driving yes it is very much sim. As for driving onto the grass all I can say to that for those complaining practice more so you can take the grass out of the equation.
One of the reasons I liked Race07 so much was that there was no doubt that real world behaviour was modelled, as to it's accuracy, that's another matter, but I know for certain that tyre wear was modelled, slip streaming, lift off oversteer, and very noticeable car behaviour relative to specific set up changes, iow, do something drastic to the front brakes and it was noticeable and appropriate relative to the actual adjustment....so a far more impressive sim than some people give credit.
Can the same be said of pcars, is it really believable that they'd arcade the hell out of the off track behaviour, but on track is full on sim, LOL, come on, that's so absurd it's literally hilarious.
Btw, most pc sims all work beautifully with my same logitech profiler settings, but I'm wondering why pcars is the exception?
No son, no, it's JUST YOUR OPINION I'M TROLLING, especially as you're clearly oblivious to how rl cars behave otherwise you'd simply accept pcars as simcade, which is fine, but when you try and censor me, LIE about what you think you know, and also rubbish or equalize the other proper attempts at sim racing, you should expect at least one sensible person to challenge your bs.
Mate, it's not my problem you don't like definitions, ie, simcade and casual gamer.....in some ways, they're a recent trend, so there's no point pretending these things/people don't exist, yet apparently when I expose their existence I'm in serious violation of "something", someone's been offended for some reason.
Don't forget{perhaps you're unaware}, that paid WMD employee Redi/F1racer at Virtualr used nogrip racing to convince people that the ridiculous Shift games were sims, of course, he was really speaking to the new breed of casual gamers, as they're the only ones who'd accept the core aspect of the game being dumbed down.....ofc, a big boost in GFX was ready to take it's place.
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