Formula Legacy Manager 2 - 80s

kedy89 · Jul 31, 2018

rubaru said:
So, you mean it's more like real life?

For current years, yes. For the early 80s hell no.

Sasha Jednak · Jul 31, 2018

Maybe making reliability to cost 2pp? It would be more in line with the 80s I think. That would then make it possible to have real life 1982, because you need to choose if you want speed or reliability.

Milos · Jul 31, 2018

Sasha Jednak said:
Maybe making reliability to cost 2pp? It would be more in line with the 80s I think. That would then make it possible to have real life 1982, because you need to choose if you want speed or reliability.

Everyone would choose speed then. Because reliability is very low value even when it costs 1.
My team (on both sides of the coin) has proven that higher reliability % does not equal better reliability.. quite often actually

I'll give a some examples I remember but there are many more:

1980 - Arrows had roughly 10% higher reliability for the entire season compared to Ferrari. To Renault maybe even 15%. Yet Lauda retired the most of the top 6 drivers (leading to Arrows losing the constructors championship), and with Watson included, Arrows had combined only 1 less DNF than both Ferrari and Renault.
1978 - iirc Ligier had 15, maybe even 20% more reliability than Arrows. Yet all 4 cars retired the same amount of times (5).
1973 - I know going into the final 3 races, Ferrari had a 2 point lead and a significant pace advantage and like 60% reliability. I had lost hope of a promotion, however they were hit by some really poor retirement luck and we ended up equal on 33 points. And even though Ferrari got through still, the tables don't tell the whole story.
1966 - BRP had quite a pace advantage in the final round. The only thing stopping Clark from being a 4, maybe even 5 time champion, was a DNF in Mexico. So I improved my reliability by 1 to 60%, so that I had 5% advantage over Brabham and Cooper (tier 1 teams did not get a massive amount of sponsor PP at the time, hence the minor upgrade. Before R10, I had 5PP, Brabham and Cooper had even less than that) As the tables show, of the front runners Clark was the only retiree, and BRP was relegated to tier 2 by 1 point. In hindsight, I should have brought a beefier upgrade, but it doesn't change the fact reliability did not work as intended in this case.

Now, the only reason I upgrade reliability is because in theory, at stock numbers, every 4th race I will have a double DNF, meaning guaranteed loss of sponsor income. And this (losing 6-8PP) is just unacceptable in the modern tier 1, where teams can get even 28/30PP from the sponsor (Arrows 79, Renault 80, likely Arrows 81). If everyone was at 40% (which would happen if reliability was made expensive), you're only relying on having this moment after your competitors, which is basically a coin flip. And that's just not fun and interactive at all.

In 1972, me and Tobi/Rob Walker started the season roughly even, and risked it at 40% reliability, putting our battle of surviving in tier 1 to a coin flip. But, I had a double DNF in round 2. And then round 5. Tobi only had his in round 6, allowing him to get a big enough boost by then to build a gap and survive.

However, in order to have more DNFs, maybe the starting value should be altered instead, reduced to 30 or 25%. Then there is still an incentive to buy reliability with more DNFs across the board. Especially now that the risky sponsors were buffed and teams upgrading 10-20% reliability early in the season, and even more through the season, has become the norm.

Meff28s · Jul 31, 2018

Well to be honest, I actually try to find ways to make the game evolve. There are many things I think about but I'm not sure of what to do :

Number 1 and 2 are just plasters IMO
Number 3 is an anwer about Reliability
Number 4 can make things worse
Number 6 should be effective next year
But Number 5 and 7 are for me what SHOULD BE the FUTURE of this game ^^

Change the sponsor rewards (but not the sponsors themselves) and add a +1PP automatic every race. This way, way for Tier 1, a Podium would mean +3 and a Top 6 +2 which is no longer the double of the "safe option". The gap between the two sponsors is huge and NO ONE has been promoted with the safe option since the 60s.

Change the objectives of the sponsors to make the risky option a little bit more risky. Podium would become Top2 and Top18 would become Top16. This way, Tier1 teams and Tier4 will be a little bit less rich.

I personnaly find it very very very frustrating to end up with a double DNF. The average Reliability give us around 14/15 drivers that finish every race. It is just a little bit too high compares to what happened in the 80s (10/12 finishs) so if you'd like more realism, the best way to achieve that is to start every team at 30% reliability. The road to get 85% would be a little bit harder.

Decrease a little bit the gap between Tiers. Currently we have this (Tier1 = 16 // Tier2 = 11 // Tier3 = 6 // Tier 4 = 1). There are 5PP between every Tier which sound quite good IMO, especially because of the sponsors. If it is reduced to only 4PP, I fear that Tier2 teams with a real big Sponsor advantage and fully loaded at the start of the season could beat the Tier1 during a whole season. I fear it because nothing is set in the rules to face that situation. What happen if a Tier2 team gets the Championship ? They are automatically promoted to Tier1 and so two Tier1 teams got relegated ?

The one I was thinking about for some weeks now is this one : delete a Tier. Reduce it to 3 Tiers only. Tier1, you can compete for the wins and Titles. Tier2, you are a midfield team, you compete for points. Tier3, you are a back-marker, you compete for the Top10 in purgatory. My idea was to add a 4th Tier1 team to increase the Title battle and a 4th Tier2 team. Also I wanted a team that is promoted to be immunized against relegation (you are not managing elevators FFS). There should still be only one promoted and one relegated team per year.
Why is that ? simply because a Team stuck in Tier2 that falls, broke, once in Tier3 is likely going to fall to Tier4 and be beaten by the team that is currently in Tier4. Going back to Tier2 lasts at least 4 seasons with no guarantee to ever come back in Tier2.

Avoid the "Arrows and Renault" cheat to happen. What is it ? let me explain. @pierre815 is currently doing what @Milos successfully did couple years back which is throwing away an entire season with the guarantee to start the next year with 10PP carried over from the wasted season. This way, currently Renault for example, will enter Tier2 next season fully loaded and was the only one to bet more safely (because he knew he wouldn't win). My idea was very simple, you shall spend all of your PP during off season for the construction of your new car because every PP saved will be deleted at the start of the season.

Delete once and for all the sponsor rewards ^^. I don't think the system of getting a better reward when you're actually doing well is a good thing for competition. This is exactly why, at the beginning of FLM 2.0 I've tried to find an other system. The biggest problem IMO is that if you're screwed once and you're not able to get your sponsor reward it is completely over and you're doomed. There is no suspense when a team is doomed no matter what happens. Unless the "target numbers" are back (which is something I really thought about), my best idea was another simple bet game. Which driver will win this race (works for every "market" and the 3 next races). If you're right you get 2PP, if wrong you get nothing. If you bet on a team instead of a driver (a safer option) you get 1PP only. IMO it would reward the ones that understand and look closely at the game. And it would mean that even if your season starts badly, there's always a chance for you to come back. It also means that no one is guaranteed to get 10PP at the end of the year.

EDIT : I've just seen that Number3 has been written quicker than I did by @Milos

Milos · Jul 31, 2018

Meff28s said:
NO ONE has been promoted with the safe option since the 60s.

Arrows, 1978

Meff28s said:
What happen if a Tier2 team gets the Championship ? They are automatically promoted to Tier1 and so two Tier1 teams got relegated ?

Standard procedure is applied. BRM beat me in 1959 when he was in tier 3 and I was in tier 2. But only 1 tier 3 team got promoted, BRM, and only 1 tier 2 team got relegated, Connaught/Reg Parnell. And I still got promoted to tier 1 like usual.

I don't know how much I like idea 6. It contradicts a lot with idea 5.
Look at March in 1977. I had much less PP and basically a 0% chance to survive against the rich Surtees and Rob Walker who also had strong lineups at the time. I'd just end up not getting my 10PP back because I can't get the podiums once Surtees and Rob Walker eventually build a gap and their 2nd drivers begin beating Lauda on pace. While it improves the competition within the tier very short term, it slowly kills the team in question as it can never accumulate enough PP without doing trades or getting very lucky with bets. Especially with your immunity system where you get to tier 4 even slower, so you could spend almost a decade just getting into tier 4 where you can finally catch some PP again. The team would end up like Surtees just a lot slower.
Edit: however, if you implement idea 1, then maybe it becomes easier to get your 10PP back. Then the change is good.

rubaru · Jul 31, 2018

Can I throw in a #8? Suppose I decide it was a stupid idea to put all of my PP on engine in the first round. I'd like to have a chance to nerf 1/2 of my engine upgrade and move it to aero. Once per season. I think that would help, too, if the first part of the season is heavy on one value, and the second half is heavy on the other. As it is now, if I put all my PP on engine and win every race, I might be screwed the second half if most races are aero. And betting on aero early on you don't get any bonus because you can't win.

Also, I think spending 3PP to change sponsor is too much. I'm likely going to a weaker sponsor, and will have to do well in three races just to make up what I just spent.

Meff28s · Jul 31, 2018

rubaru said:
Can I throw in a #8? Suppose I decide it was a stupid idea to put all of my PP on engine in the first round. I'd like to have a chance to nerf 1/2 of my engine upgrade and move it to aero. Once per season. I think that would help, too, if the first part of the season is heavy on one value, and the second half is heavy on the other. As it is now, if I put all my PP on engine and win every race, I might be screwed the second half if most races are aero. And betting on aero early on you don't get any bonus because you can't win.

Also, I think spending 3PP to change sponsor is too much. I'm likely going to a weaker sponsor, and will have to do well in three races just to make up what I just spent.

I agree with the end of your post, 3PP to be able to win 3 or 6PP at max is way too much... if the Idea #1 is not effective ^^

But I don't really agree with your #8 as it seems to me that the whole game is to choose between those two track types. If you can go backwards (even with a penalty), it's killing the only "strategy" you have in this game IMHO.

The_Laskinator · Jul 31, 2018

Meff28s said:
IMO it would reward the ones that understand and look closely at the game. And it would mean that even if your season starts badly, there's always a chance for you to come back. It also means that no one is guaranteed to get 10PP at the end of the year.

I for one, dont have the time to spend working out every little way to do better, and I dont think I'm alone, I'd much prefer it to be more casual and not get more techincal

Slyfrequency · Jul 31, 2018

I don't mind the way this game goes, whether it stays the same or becomes more complex.

We do need a change though, I like the idea of a team having immunity for a season. Because with Lotus, once I stopped winning and was in a relegation spot I risked it and didn't save PP and instead put PP into the car, but it didn't pay off. Then over the next few years I dropped all the way down to tier 4 which sucks.

rubaru · Jul 31, 2018

I don't like the immunity. Sometimes teams get promoted accidentally.
Prefer the 4 teams per tier. A little more competition that way, and focusing your efforts to beat 3 teams.
I like reducing the gap between tiers from 5 to 4. You will still get the occasional tier 2 winning a race and, really, what's wrong with that? Would anyone here be disappointed if Renault or Haas win a race this season?

Omer Said · Aug 1, 2018

A lost battle, no way to fight against that aero number!

Sasha Jednak · Aug 1, 2018

@Milos , I agree on that reliability.

@Meff28s As for number ideas: they all sound good to me

More teams per tier, different sponsor rewards. I am still ok with 5pp between tiers, here is why.
With 4 tier1 teams it is enough teams that can win. It would be unrealistic to have 5+ teams winning. But even that could happen using idea #6, where you develop your car in off season, not knowing if first races are engine or aero dependent (I hope it would be done like this). So it can happen for example that 3 tier1 teams go for engine, 2 tier2 teams go for aero and first 2 tracks are aero.

Then as the season progresses, things come into place. I mean I don't see how it would be real that tier2 team wins the championship, when did that happen in RL?

Milos · Aug 1, 2018

Sasha Jednak said:
when did that happen in RL?

I actually had a look. Never

But I think a buff to 4PP would actually not affect the championship order too much, if at all. Tier 1 teams are still tier 1 teams.

I tried it with Clark in 1967 when I got relegated. Because I did not buy a big reliability upgrade in 1966, I had a lot of PP to work with. And obviously I had Clark so I had the best driver by a mile. And while Brabham and Cooper were drained, and therefore easy pickings for Clark, Rob Walker who got promoted was not, and we had the same amount of PP. However, I think Von Trips was a B driver so I was relying on Clark to pull the weights. It worked initially, but despite my sponsor giving more PP, I drained too much resources on one track type, and later in the season I could simply not compete when the other type of track came. And, Von Trips had the better reliability, so my only chance was to hope that reliability didn't work as intended again, which didn't happen. Eventually, I think after R6, I decided it was pointless to keep spending resources for a small chance to win, when I know I can probably win in 1968 much more easily when I get promoted (which I did).

I believe 1967 was the closest anyone will ever get to winning a championship in tier 2. The competition between drivers is much bigger now, and will remain so for the rest of the game, maybe only with the exception of the early 00's and Michael (and that's likely only 2001 and 2002 when Hakkinen retired and Montoya, Raikkonen, Button and Alonso were rookies). But, anyone who has Michael at this point will likely be in tier 1 anyway. And if not, he will have to contend with balanced tracks, an overpowered tier 1 sponsor, 7 extra races, probably a 4th tier 1 team, and Rubens, Ralf and DC who might even be A class. And even then they probably need some retirement luck as well. 2 extra PP isn't going to overcome this massive advantage tier 1 teams have. But, it may mean that teams like McLaren in 1980 or Ferrari and Brabham in 1981 can win more than just once. Which wouldn't be a bad thing!

Benutzername · Aug 1, 2018

Milos said:
I actually had a look. Never

But I think a buff to 4PP would actually not affect the championship order too much, if at all. Tier 1 teams are still tier 1 teams.

I tried it with Clark in 1967 when I got relegated. Because I did not buy a big reliability upgrade in 1966, I had a lot of PP to work with. And obviously I had Clark so I had the best driver by a mile. And while Brabham and Cooper were drained, and therefore easy pickings for Clark, Rob Walker who got promoted was not, and we had the same amount of PP. However, I think Von Trips was a B driver so I was relying on Clark to pull the weights. It worked initially, but despite my sponsor giving more PP, I drained too much resources on one track type, and later in the season I could simply not compete when the other type of track came. And, Von Trips had the better reliability, so my only chance was to hope that reliability didn't work as intended again, which didn't happen. Eventually, I think after R6, I decided it was pointless to keep spending resources for a small chance to win, when I know I can probably win in 1968 much more easily when I get promoted (which I did).

I believe 1967 was the closest anyone will ever get to winning a championship in tier 2. The competition between drivers is much bigger now, and will remain so for the rest of the game, maybe only with the exception of the early 00's and Michael (and that's likely only 2001 and 2002 when Hakkinen retired and Montoya, Raikkonen, Button and Alonso were rookies). But, anyone who has Michael at this point will likely be in tier 1 anyway. And if not, he will have to contend with balanced tracks, an overpowered tier 1 sponsor, 7 extra races, probably a 4th tier 1 team, and Rubens, Ralf and DC who might even be A class. And even then they probably need some retirement luck as well. 2 extra PP isn't going to overcome this massive advantage tier 1 teams have. But, it may mean that teams like McLaren in 1980 or Ferrari and Brabham in 1981 can win more than just once. Which wouldn't be a bad thing!

I still hope ferrari can win more than once in 1981

Milos · Aug 1, 2018

Benutzername said:
I still hope ferrari can win more than once in 1981

Definetly possible as round 11 even threw some uncertainty on my end. But on paper Lauda still has an advantage and probably won't retire with that reliability.

Benutzername · Aug 1, 2018

Milos said:
Definetly possible as round 11 even threw some uncertainty on my end. But on paper Lauda still has an advantage and probably won't retire with that reliability.

And i just realised that it was his home gp. Whoops.

Milos · Aug 1, 2018

Benutzername said:
And i just realised that it was his home gp. Whoops.

And I just realized that now as well..

But, at least he managed to win the Austrian GP once, in 1979. So it's not quite like Rubens.

Meff28s · Aug 1, 2018

1981 Formula One Season (13-15)

The 1981 season is over ! Congratulations to the winners !

Off Season instructions will follow...

Meff28s · Aug 1, 2018

In Red, the picks of the teams that already have a A driver and that can't sign another A driver.

You have 48h to buy, sell, trade or fire a driver (or a signing position) !
You have 72h to send me your wish-list

Meff28s · Aug 1, 2018

!!!!! FLM 2.5 : Rules Changes !!!!!

Thank you guys first for your answers during this rules debate. I made my decisions and here are the things that will evolve for the upcoming season..

Change Number 1 : Every team will now start with 25% Reliability (instead of 40% during off season).

Change Number 2 : You will no longer be able to save more than 10PP at the very end of each market. Every PP above 10 will be deleted (exactly like some years ago).

Change Number 3 : You will earn +1PP every time at least one of your car finishes a race. In addition to your sponsor rewards (which do not change), you will be able to earn up to 3PP per race.

Change Number 4 : We will now have four Teams in Tier1, four in Tier2 and three in Tier3. The Tier4 is deleted. However, only one team is still promoted (and relegated) in each Tier (exactly like before).

Change Number 5 : I'll keep the gaps of 5PP between each Tier at the creation of the chassis at least for now. But now a Tier3 team will start with 0A 0E, a Tier2 with 5A 5E and a Tier1 with 10A 10E.

Notice that for this particular season, Both Tier4 teams will be promoted in Tier3. The worst Tier1 team will be relegated in Tier2. The worst Tier3 team will stay in Tier3 while the two others will get into Tier2. The two best Tier2 teams will be promoted in Tier1