Buying advice please - Next Level v3 Motion Platform

[MarkR]

I'm looking for some advice and thoughts of other owners or people with good knowledge of the product, please.

I always said I'd buy myself a motion simulator if I could afford one and had the room available. Well, that day may have arrived. I'm impressed by what I've seen of the Next Level v3 Motion Platform

This seems to meet all my criteria:

+ Limited space requirements, I don't have room for a huge sim rig but this seems compact enough to work.
+ Works with Oculus Rift VR, that fixed head position setting solution is impressive
+ Great support and regular updates from the developers
+ Available in the UK
+ Works with my current Thrustmaster wheel and accessories.
+ Sub £3k for the full setup, I'm not a pro racer I'm not looking for a practice simulator this is just for fun so the cost/fun balance has to be right.

So help me do the man maths! Is it worth it?

Is there another similar product I should also look at? It would need to be reasonably compact, work with VR, available in the UK without too much hassle and in the same £3-5K price range.

Is there anywhere I can try one or even better several of the systems in the UK?

 

[HugoB]

@Mr Latte I agree with you concerning the tactile feedback on the D-BOX. There is very little information available about the actual performance or adjustability. It's odd that Barry even turns it off completely. I understand there is a slider to let you choose if tactile is prioritised over motion, or motion over tactile. This means you lose fidelity in both if you are not totally left or totally right. Barry has tactile completely off. This means you won't feel engine RPM and other chassis vibrations?

Another point to consider is this: I've seen demonstrations of the D-BOX 'test cycle' demonstrating motion range and vibration range, you can see the whole room shaking, even the camera:

The problem with D-BOX is that the vibration is directly transmitted into the floor! This is what you are trying to avoid so badly with traditional tactile setups right?
I can understand you will want to turn off tactile feedback on your D-BOX if it will get you evicted. Rather have a very locally concentrated tactile with low power directly bolted to your seat and pedals, isolated from the frame through methods ingeniously researched by you. But maybe somebody has found a solution to this problem? There is so little available on the internet.

@AntoN_CheZ I totally agree with you regarding VR. Resolution is of course not up there yet, but it does not distract from the experience in my opinion. The head tracking is so precise with the current HMD it is exactly one-on-one to the movement of your head. I used to just race to improve my lap times, spent zero time enjoying the cockpit of the cars, only racing to get a couple of hundredths off of my time. I didn't matter what the car looked like, I couldn't see it anyway. Just how it felt through the wheel and how fast it was. Now though thanks to VR, I load up a car that fascinates me like the Lotus 25, or the Ferrari F40 and sit there on the starting line, just soaking up all the details of the cockpit, look behind to the engine, try to immerse myself into the car, until I feel like I'm there, then carefully start driving. I sometimes enjoy cruising down the Nordschleife, occasionally hitting the gas, like I would if I was really driving a half million dollar car. I don't even know my lap time and I don't care. Other times I load up Niki Lauda's Ferrari 312T2 and cruise down Nordschleife to Bergwerk corner, park the Ferrari and get out, walk around a bit and feel the eerie sensation of being there when it happened. Then get back in and hit the gas, finishing Niki Lauda's lap VR opens up a totally different way of enjoying sim racing. No going back for me. Of course once you get used to it you can also use it to your advantage and actually improve your lap times, because you have a way better sense of speed, and a better judgement of how far away you are from the apex, thanks to stereo vision.
Motion and VR seem to be equally revolutionary for immersion. But I can understand motion needs to be properly calibrated to portray correctly in VR. I'm thankful for your work on tuning the NLV3 and looking forward to setting it up with the settings you've shared with us!

@Michal Burisin I get what you're saying regarding every angle of freedom is better, but from what I gather, it matters more how well the movement is executed, how well the software interprets the data and subsequently portrays that to you via change in direction. The problem is that movement is not about a 1:1 copy of what the car is doing, but rather in tricking the brain into linking what is seen and heard to what is felt. Thats why everyone advocates speed and precision over range of motion. Not a lot is needed to trick the brain, think about all the people falling over while using VR, the brain is strong, it can emulate motion, so only small cues are necessary to convince it, the rest will be filled out by the brain. I long lost interest in 6DOF, it can only simulate at most 0.5G's (45 degree angle in most outrageous contraptions) there's a plethora of research showing its limitations. So everyone is moving 2 or 3 DOF, but with very strong, very fast, short range actuators. This is the key, so I believe if you're going full frame motion, I'd really try to get the strongest actuators and keep your rig as light as possible. I was interested in D-BOX because they have a record of supplying actuators for commercial experiences, these things last years running 8 hours a day. Pay once kind of thing. Couple that with their software which is developed directly in conjunction with the games physics engineers and you get a suspension feedback as real as it can be. I'd love to be surprised by the quality of an open source powered DIY actuator setup, but haven't seen reports that anything can come near to D-BOX yet.

Rear traction loss is for sure a great thing to have working. But I'm going to keep that for the end, when everything else is up and running and I'm bored and have some money to spend. Simply because everyone reports feeling the sensation of TL on a NLV3 and on a D-BOX. Like I mentioned earlier, it's all about tricking the brain, how it is done is not the question, the outcome is key. So if even Barry (with lots of time and disposable income) on his D-BOX says he doesn't miss TL, I believe it is of low priority.

Thanks for mentioning the seatbelt tensioners, I've looked into that as well, and the Vesaro unit seems great, if you have no motion, it could give you some g-force effect. But once you have a seat mover all you need to do is attach the seat belts to your frame with some springs and off you go. Alternatively if you have a full frame motion you can attach them to the floor in some way, read Barry's comments on his youtube review, he mentions working on something.

Well, the only unknown in this whole endeavour is the GS-5 seat, where does it fit in? I want one for sure, but apparently the NLV3 does a good job in tricking your brain into feeling some high g's. Other than full frame where you NEED a GS-5.

So I remain convinced the NLV3 should give you the most all round experience with the broadest range of effects, coupled with VR and tactile giving a masterfully orchestrated immersion. It's pretty kind on the wife too, being quieter than the chirping SimXperience, and allowing the tactile to be more efficiently placed, isolating it from the floor compared to D-BOX which is hammering into your floor.

Again, I'm all ears to people who've got the gear to test it and report (and maybe prove me wrong ) I'm very open to other peoples opinions, after all, it's the reason I'm here on the forum anyway! Just on my 'sim motion journey', gathering data, don't mind me

 

[HoiHman]

Just a few comments:

-The combination of the NLMv3 with a GS-4 seat is just awesome, but only after some modifications:
I modded my GS-4 so that the G-forces are felt much better and more from the side. At the moment it's so good, that i have to think twice before even considering upgrading to a GS-5.

-The cornering (G-force) effects of the NLMv3 are turned down quite a lot and the GS-4 does 90% the G-Force simulation. I still have the cornering effect of the NLMv3 turned on, but only for the feeling of change of direction. The GS-4 can handle a lot other effects, but i have them all turn off. Only roadbumps on the bottom panels and G-forces on the back panels.

-Why have i modded the GS_4? When NLMv3 moves, your body mass has the tendancy to stay inplace. Even with seatbelts, the seat will move you away from the panel that the GS-4 uses to press against you. I have extended the reach of the GS-4 panels by 2 inches, compensating for that movement and give me awesome corner pressure during the entire corner.

-The NLMv3 can't handle seat belt tensioners, it will overstress the motors. I do use seat belts, they are automatically tensioned by the GS-4

-VR motion compension sounds nice, but totally unnecessary for race games. The movements are short and fast, most of the time you neck automatically compensates for the moments.

Kinda like the chicken gimball

- I think Barry sold his entire rig, with tactile and more importantly his GS-4. I can imagine racing a D-box without tactile, but NEVER without a GS-4.

Back on topic : The NLMv3

Please check you post processing settings of your custom profiles after updating to the latest version. The negative linearity setting can skrewup your profile depending how you have it set up before the update.



(i know this from experience)

 

[HugoB]

Just a few comments:

-The combination of the NLMv3 with a GS-4 seat is just awesome, but only after some modifications:
I modded my GS-4 so that the G-forces are felt much better and more from the side. At the moment it's so good, that i have to think twice before even considering upgrading to a GS-5.

-The cornering (G-force) effects of the NLMv3 are turned down quite a lot and the GS-4 does 90% the G-Force simulation. I still have the cornering effect of the NLMv3 turned on, but only for the feeling of change of direction. The GS-4 can handle a lot other effects, but i have them all turn off. Only roadbumps on the bottom panels and G-forces on the back panels.

-Why have i modded the GS_4? When NLMv3 moves, your body mass has the tendancy to stay inplace. Even with seatbelts, the seat will move you away from the panel that the GS-4 uses to press against you. I have extended the reach of the GS-4 panels by 2 inches, compensating for that movement and give me awesome corner pressure during the entire corner.

-The NLMv3 can't handle seat belt tensioners, it will overstress the motors. I do use seat belts, they are automatically tensioned by the GS-4

-VR motion compension sounds nice, but totally unnecessary for race games. The movements are short and fast, most of the time you neck automatically compensates for the moments.

Kinda like the chicken gimball

- I think Barry sold his entire rig, with tactile and more importantly his GS-4. I can imagine racing a D-box without tactile, but NEVER without a GS-4.

Back on topic : The NLMv3

Please check you post processing settings of your custom profiles after updating to the latest version. The negative linearity setting can skrewup your profile depending how you have it set up before the update.



(i know this from experience)

Thanks for your feedback regarding the NLV3! I'm glad to hear the VR integration is not an issue, thats one less thing to worry about. It's also good to hear a GS seat can work with the NLV3, I hope the GS-5 seat allows for adjustment to cater for moving seat. I believe you it must be a very convincing experience.

Thanks for the heads up regarding the NLV3 being unable to handle seatbelt tensioners! It was an afterthought for me, but now I know I'd need to find a different solution. Problem is I wouldn't want the NLV3 to carry too much weight. I presume seatbelt tensioning is a good way to convey brake force? And the GS seat conveys cornering and acceleration, then the NLV3 fills in the gaps, topping it off with some vibration from the tactile. Great stuff to look forward to.

 

[anton_Chez]

Hey Hoi, I plan on doing this (checking settings) once my build is back up and running. Interested to see how the negative values will add to what I have been able to achieve with the previously added features. I think I can get a little more refinement out of it. I did feel that I needed just a little more adjustment, and a negative value may be the trick to get me where I felt I needed to be. Next few weeks I should be back up and running.

All this motion talk has had me on websites and currency conversions all night! I am not even looking for a new motion kit! But I love the actual build process of this hobby and it's half the reason it's so fun. The only problem is when you actually have some money to spend on it! I am actually debating getting into direct drive now that my new chassis will be able to handle any force that I can throw at it. I should get a good return on my V2.5 if I decide to sell it, and I might just keep all the rims I have for it (3 when the McLaren GT3 rim finally gets to me) and buy the Fanatec adapter. But that's a topic for another thread

Overall I do think that the package you get with the V3 is a revelation for the price point. The ability to mount it to a variety of set ups and cockpits, the ability to mount your own seat, whether a GS-? or just a standard racing bucket, the noise (or lack of) factor, the looks and minimalist nature of the unit, the performance for what it's designed for and capable of, the software with profile as well as hardware tweaking, support for many titles, and finally, the price. It's a fantastic way to add a nice looking great performing non wallet demolishing motion system to your sim racing experience. Anyone that has one or purchases one is in for a great time. At the end of the day, you need to experience a high end D-Box system to actually feel like you're missing (or not) out on anything and the majority of us will not have that opportunity.

Totally agree on the VR points hugo makes as well, I have been back on screens for the past month or so since I went back to AMS for a little bit. Love the sim, probably my favourite feeling sim, but pity it's not VR compatible. I found myself missing apexes A LOT and I am not a great driver (yet) to begin with. Was frustrating me. Felt like I had to guess where I was on the track, and even hitting grass a lot because I felt it hard to remember what side drive the car was. In VR you feel the space, and know where you are in the car and on the track most of the time. This will only get better with the Pimax as the FOV is HUGE compared to current units. No more helmet feeling.

 

[HugoB]

@HoiHman A question about the NLV3 VR compensation though:

NLV3 compensation turned off: I understand that if your head stays still in relation to the wheel (and therefore sensors), even though your seat is tilted to either side, in VR this translates to your head staying still in relation to your wheel as well. But your body has moved thanks to the seat. Now you feel a force pulling you away from the wheel, your head compensates and in VR nothing changed. Is this how it works?

What then does the NLV3 VR compensation do? It would tell the VR world that your head is somewhere else right? It would put your head on the opposite side of where your seat moved, kind of like a double compensation (once software and once your own chicken head compensation)? How does this feel in VR? I'm trying to wrap my brain about how this works out, but it's a tricky thought experiment. You say off is better, this might explain the double compensation problem?

 

[HugoB]

...the compensation software says: 'that particular left bank movement never took place'
- which puts your head in front of your wheel, if you would have followed the seat.
- but you didn't follow your seat, you compensated to the right using advanced chicken moves
- this leaves only the software compensation putting your head EVEN more to the right?
- what does this feel like, does it result in you compensating the compensation?
- is this what they mean muscle tension that induces a feeling of g-force?
- I'll have to try this myself

 

[Mascot]

I think I've found the first car/track combo to try on my NLV3 next week: BZ Simwork's Acura NSX at Mid Ohio (the dark tarmac version with skidmarks everywhere - not sure who created it). Been lapping there this afternoon and it's a bumpy rolling thrill ride that this car seems made for.

 

[HugoB]

Ok, I read up on the subject of VR and motion and the need for motion compensation. I'm sorry for the lengthy posts on the subject, but it's bugging me and maybe it's an interesting thought experiment for the people at work that need to kill some time until the clock strikes five

It emerged first when people where using VR with motion, specifically large motion, like 6DOF with angles up to 45. With the sensors mounted stationary this translated to your head moving out of the window of your car or resting on your passengers seat, or checking out the valves of your mid-mounted V12.

A solution was to put the sensors on your moving platform. Works great to a certain degree, but is sub-par because your HMD also gets its cues from internal accelerometers and gyroscopes for the initial movement. So it can become a rather jagged experience. To add salt in the wounds the sensors also have referencing mechanics to know their movement. HTC won't even allow for moving sensors, so only oculus is an option for platform mounted sensors, until oculus departed this feature in a recent update. So people went stationary again and had an Oculus or HTC controller mounted to the platform, registering the movement of the platform and in software cancelling exactly this movement out, resulting in your virtual head staying perfectly level. You're back to being tricked into feeling the lateral G's.

The idea of VR and large scale 6DOF is brilliant because these platforms rely on the trick that tilting you on your side, but making you believe you're still upright by means of visual cues gives the impression of lateral G's, in VR you can't see your room, so it becomes very convincing. With correct VR implementation this would be a match made in heaven. Until you need more than 0.5G. Let alone fast transitions between forward and backward G's like braking or changing gears, no way this could work for cars.

A full motion platform like the D-BOX is actually a wholly different philosophy. If the platform range of motion is set up correctly, the platform is a real reference for the car, because all it does is move according to the spring telemetry and weight transfer. This is why 1.5 inch of movement is enough. This means that if your sensors are mounted stationary away from the car, you will see your car move in VR, and it will also be moving in real life. So your steering wheel will be where it's supposed to be. And there's no need for motion compensation! That is, as long as you're using a limited range of motion. As soon as you exaggerate the movement, you're getting into traditional G's territory, trying to convey lateral G's and so the need for compensation arrises again. But as I understand, most people with a D-BOX kind of setup end up limiting the range of motion and therefore the car is moving correctly alongside the virtual car. Great. You should however have your VR settings as such that your head stays level with the horizon (like your real chicken head does) and the car is left to bounce around in your virtual vision. No lateral G's to be felt though!

A seat mover is a tricky situation, correctly speaking you've got two platforms in effect. Though it could be rather simple, think of it like this, if your sensors are again mounted stationary off the platform, the wheel will stay where it is, like in your virtual world. Your head will instinctively compensate (chicken) the movement of the seat and also stay correctly aligned with the real wheel and the virtual wheel. No need for software to compensate this movement. But if your car starts bouncing around in the virtual world, it does not bounce around in the real world. You won't necessary notice this because you mostly feel your seat which is moving correctly, and in the heat of the motion you will hold on to your wheel and even feel some strange tension in your muscles, that might translate to the sensation of g-forces. For this situation though, a compensation does not make sense.

Anybody still there? Am I right or is there a fault in my reasoning?
The seat mover case is definitely an interesting one in VR, because I can't seem to imagine how it feels like. You'll see the car bounce around in VR, but it will be motionless in real life, but your seat will be bouncing about, your brain however is thrown into a soup of mixed signals which may or may not make the experience better. I do however believe that motion in relation to the wheel is a valuable tool to fool the brain, especially if done right in VR. And I'm sure NLV3 engineers have tested this and found ways to make it feel awesome, which could explain the massive amount of hugely positive feedback from NLV3 VR users.

 

[HoiHman]

@Hugo, i have tried the motion compension of the NLMv3 for about 30 seconds, but somehow the entire image in VR felt wrong. Not smooth enough either. So i turned it off and never tried it again.

The funny thing is that VR and motion worried me also a lot before buying the NLMv3 and the motion compensation software was one things that convinced me buying a NLMv3

I can see it only being usefull with very large movements like in flying games

If i ever were to buy a D-box, before selling the NLMv3, i would investigate the possiblity to mount the NLMv3 on a D-box system. (for the braking forces and small left / right movements only.)

Just like now i would let each system do, what it does best and turn the "double" effects off in the system that handles it in the least convincing way.

@AntoN_CheZ, i really have no idea how the negative values of the post processing could be usefull. I'm very much looking forward to your feedback on that.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte I agree with you concerning the tactile feedback on the D-BOX. There is very little information available about the actual performance or adjustability. It's odd that Barry even turns it off completely. I understand there is a slider to let you choose if tactile is prioritised over motion, or motion over tactile. This means you lose fidelity in both if you are not totally left or totally right. Barry has tactile completely off. This means you won't feel engine RPM and other chassis vibrations?

Another point to consider is this: I've seen demonstrations of the D-BOX 'test cycle' demonstrating motion range and vibration range, you can see the whole room shaking, even the camera:

The problem with D-BOX is that the vibration is directly transmitted into the floor! This is what you are trying to avoid so badly with traditional tactile setups right?
I can understand you will want to turn off tactile feedback on your D-BOX if it will get you evicted. Rather have a very locally concentrated tactile with low power directly bolted to your seat and pedals, isolated from the frame through methods ingeniously researched by you. But maybe somebody has found a solution to this problem? There is so little available on the internet.

Good read, I used that video recently in the tactile thread, the reason is the frequency sweep/drop it does. I can easily surpass that level of energy with multiple of the biggest tactile.

I would say that the strength of g-force possible can be quite brutal with the right effect and tactile hardware. What I have found with SSW and in waveform creation is that the more I learn and experiment with file creation the better I am finding not just strong but suitable effects.

Power beyond the average tactile....

For me and in my own experiences tactile has some benefits that motion just doesn't have and their ain't no way a GS4 paddle pushing into my body would represent the level of energy I can generate from the tactile I have and files I am creating. Yet SSW works with the exact same telemetry and X,Y,Z. Some may prefer the body contact of a moving paddle but few are even taking the approach I am persuing or seeing that a GS4 is not the only or be all solution for g-forces. More importantly, the usage of these axis in giving the user detailed feedback of what the cars handling is doing over each one. With tactile, I believe we have more customization options and ways of having each bring its own attributes. So that when more than one is operating it is not just paddles in the backside and back that we may feel but unique vibrations and bone conduction through our nerves and tissue.

VR3 owners with the right tactile hardware and good installation combined with SSW using well-made files would have very good immersion. No question, D-Box may not be 5x better yet cost in that region more to own. It is a very hefty price to pay but I am not convinced mixing GS4, D-Box and tactile can all work together. I believe the senses will be overloaded and to some degree, each will have a negative effect on the other. For instance, we could lose the specific focus or detail one solution if fine-tuned can bring on its own. Different people may prefer different things.

Each option will likely have its +/- for different people too.
A difference with tactile however is that its possible to have sustained force continuing, as no moving parts and if desired to give braking, acceleration and cornering all their own unique felt detailing or sensations. We then can apply energy more to the front/back axis in relation to the effect. Here again with .wav creation for effects we can do this with fine control and %. Lets say you want 70/30 for front-back in braking or maybe you just want 100% up front. Yet a GS4 or a VR3 is just a seat it brings no independent immersion to the front end. This is one reason for me tactile still is one of the best immersion solutions. SSW makes this possible and it as software also continues to improve and has come quite a long way in the last 12 months.

Motion Questions:

• How do different cars translate over with motion?
• What changes can be made or applied to have a variation with different classes of cars?
• How are G-Loads from one different to another, braking, acceleration, cornering?
• What happens when a motion rig VR3 or moving paddle in GS4 hits maximum travel, yet your only mid-corner?

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I think it’s all a bit subjective as some drivers hate motion and say it’s not even close to real life, it just depends what you feel and notice most in a real car and trying to replicate it.

I was happy enough with my old rig with top end Fanatec gear and a NLR GT Ultimate but as soon as I got VR and felt like I was sat in a car I started to notice all the things that were actually missing. All the flex in the rig, the strange feeling in the wheel, pedals not feeling sturdy enough or quite right, lack off feedback from bumps etc.

So I’ve just been upgrading piece by piece, each upgrade fixing what I notice is missing or wrong for me. Now all I notice is the lack of motion and I’ll start with the best budget option but if that’s not enough I may then, much later down the road get a D-Box setup.

I think you can get 90% of the way to top end hardware performance for much less anyway if you are willing to do some fiddling, research and dealing with multiple parts. The real good stuff is very rarely worth the exhorbitant increase in price.

 

[anton_Chez]

@Mr Latte the cars feel as you would expect them to when compared to each other in real life, An F1 car is going to feel very rough and bumpy, super fast movements when compared to a GT car which has a more laid back feel regarding the suspension and also the feeling of speed. It all works off telemetry so it really shouldn't feel any different to what you would expect from what you see on screen.

I have further tweaked things to enhance the differences in the types of cars. But the problem of running out of range of motion mid corner is never an issue. I tune my movements DOWN, to the point where in F1 cars, the only feeling you really get is the sudden sharp movement left or right. I stop the movement well short because the platform tends to associate intensity with more movement, which is wrong for immersion, You don't move AT ALL in an F1 car, but you feel sharp forces around all direction of movement changes.

I agree with the tactile giving the remaining feeling of G forces on top of what a seat mover can provide. The initial movement provided by moving (slightly) your body to translate motion cues and force of the car changing direction, and then sustained low frequencies pulsing through the body for the teeth clenching feeling. With the right hardware I am sure something great could be achieved. I am not sure about a GS-4 seat but as long as you can't feel the actual prodding of the panel (which would be like someone poking you) then it seems like a good idea. Hoi seems to think so, we can only trust people that have actually used the hardware.

 

[HoiHman]

Guys i'm not sure how tactile can be used to simulate F-forces

If you want to have an indication how the GS- 4 feels pay attention the next time when you go over a roundabout, the pressure you feel on the sides of your back where you are pushing against the seat is exactly the same as what the GS-4 does. ( but reversed off course since you're not pushing against the seat, but the seat is pushing you)

Rodney: When you are mid-corner and the seat / GS-4 panels have reached their limit, you just keep feel the pressure until the G-forces are getting lower.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte the cars feel as you would expect them to when compared to each other in real life, An F1 car is going to feel very rough and bumpy, super fast movements when compared to a GT car which has a more laid back feel regarding the suspension and also the feeling of speed. It all works off telemetry so it really shouldn't feel any different to what you would expect from what you see on screen.

I have further tweaked things to enhance the differences in the types of cars. But the problem of running out of range of motion mid corner is never an issue. I tune my movements DOWN, to the point where in F1 cars, the only feeling you really get is the sudden sharp movement left or right. I stop the movement well short because the platform tends to associate intensity with more movement, which is wrong for immersion, You don't move AT ALL in an F1 car, but you feel sharp forces around all direction of movement changes.

I agree with the tactile giving the remaining feeling of G forces on top of what a seat mover can provide. The initial movement provided by moving (slightly) your body to translate motion cues and force of the car changing direction, and then sustained low frequencies pulsing through the body for the teeth clenching feeling. With the right hardware I am sure something great could be achieved. I am not sure about a GS-4 seat but as long as you can't feel the actual prodding of the panel (which would be like someone poking you) then it seems like a good idea. Hoi seems to think so, we can only trust people that have actually used the hardware.

I understand the point that the intensity level and degrees of movement will be based on the telemetry values any car is producing. It happens in real-time based on each cars physics with the physics modeling being used. With SSW we can even see the telemetry values for each effect in the log in real time. What I was asking is how regards the movement it varies, you mention tweaking different cars so give me some examples of how you are altering settings to match cars producing different telemetry values.

Both audio and physical motion are using the same telemetry. What I am querying is to help me grasp better the attributes for both. This way we could potentially help each other in understanding how certain effect operate and what they do. Maybe this is more apparent with motion than tactile but one thing I would share for example in using "Acceleration"

Self Exploration:
With SSW I have discovered that examining "Acceleration" the gain is linked to the operating range of the effect. It seems to work on a threshold curve and I expect your motion controls work in a similar way.

If I reduce the gain level, the energy is less but also the acceleration is only active to say 100 kph (potentially car dependent). If I increase the gain, of course, it feels stronger but now the range is wider and acceleration is active to say 150 kph. The issue here is that the max working range for the effect feels best but max gain is just far too strong. If I set a 70% level then I loose detailing of the effect in its range but need this to achieve a comfortable intensity.

Now the part I am querying regards your options/settings. With the audio I can create a .wav that enables me to balance the strength (amplitude) level so that is not overbearing but then enable the full range of the acceleration. This way its possible to have the effect give more response yet never go beyond feeling uncomfortable.

Motion Software Restrictiions?
I don't know that the software in VR3 enables or a GS4 in what may be internal or cannot be changed but to me your description of short movement (jolts) for Lateral G is a similar issue of controlling the range but obtaining a suitable felt gain/energy response.

Clearly, the steering amount % is one main parameter with X based effects just as pedal and brake depression % are with Z axis.


Track Scenario:
Can you describe please a track like Barcelona with long sweeping corners how this translates in your motion? I get that with changes in direction from steering in chicanes and (jolts) of energy can feel good with change of direction but what for much longer corners which may have gradual steering input?

For "Lateral G" in tactile with SSW I have experimented alot (files not yet shared) and have achieved like with "Acceleration" the ability to have a sustained energy. 10 seconds variable activity is no problem. As within the .wav (effects duration), I can have the main character of the effect that loops but also a continued bass sweep working with the duration. This can work in any Hz range over the time of the effect (eg, 2Hz per second) and be used to either drop or increase in frequency. So what I have is an effect that feels good with quick changes of direction but also can work fine during the whole duration of long corners and vary its sensation throughout. Another factor is that the tactile is also operating based on other effects, so acceleration, deceleration, wheelslip, bumps are all operating in combination with this single effect based on what the cars handling and driver are doing. With motion, I query how much all these felt sensations and their own personal customisation for each effect can be detected individually compared to what is possible in tactile?

What I am trying to do is help find a link in how we can better bridge tactile and motion but need to understand more in the VR3 way of operating and what can be done with settings.


SSW with its own effects, (Not Simvibe) appears to do everything GS4 offers but with more options/control possible. Let me ask again, as to me once a paddle has reached its max positon, then the level of body pressure is only sustained? This could be 1-2 seconds into an 8-second corner. So surely restriction/limitation of physical movement is a limitation of range, therefore fewer steps of range is possible and as such you have more of an on/off (jolt) than many gradual steps over the example of a 5-10 second corner?

Guys, to me this is not the same thing as having powerful tactile with specially created .wav continue to operate in long corners. Common tactile cannot produce the same sensation so for many of you it will be harder to grasp what sensation is possible here. Yet I expect many of you can realte to feeling strong low bass at a concert or in a cinema and it move you without physically moving you.

Please feel free to help clarify or comment the objective is not to debate but find common principles of how each work, what each can bring and how each can be best combined.
Maybe another time or somewhere else as this thread is going way off track and into the gravel

 

[Avenue19]

Blanes is not using VR compensation either. I'm not realy missing it. Since i have set the unit up that it has relative small movements, i have no trouble using the NLMv3 in VR.

Automatically i already compensate keeping my head steady when the seat moves. The latest update should have improvements in the motion compensation software, but i haven't tried it yet.

The software now also support tactile feedback with up to 8 buttkickers, but i prefer simvibe.

I would like to hear your feedback on VR compensation when you have it set up.

How much space would you say is needed in your setup around the sides of your racing seat, while using your movement settings ? I'm also considering buying NLMv3, but my space is quite limited sideways and especially on the left side of my rig and seat, where there's a wall only about 10-15cm / 4-6 inches away. Can I limit the sideway movement to not hit the wall with the side of my seat, and if so, would you say the level of movement you're currently using, would be allowed in my limited space as well? Big thanks already, if you can help!

 

[anton_Chez]

@Avenue19 yes the software now allows you to limit the range of the platform's throw (maximum movement in a given direction). So if you needed to you could definitely (in a test scenario) get the platform to the maximum range your room allows for and just cut it off there as a maximum throw. The platform will then go no further than that setting no matter what the telemetry says. You can then further tune the settings (both from an overall hardware workload point of view as well as profile based individual titles) to your liking, or, more to the point, your restrictions given your lack of space. The platform doesn't really move THAT much so depending how you have it set up, you might not even need to worry about hitting the wall even with stock settings.

I think the thing that people are getting confused about here is this G-force simulation thing. A motion platform WILL NOT replicate G-Force. End of. Tactile is completely different from motion and should be treated as such. They both offer things that the other cannot, and they work pretty awesome when combined with a level of harmony. The motion platform is designed to give you CUES, to allow you to better understand the relationship between your inputs and the car, similar to how force feedback is designed to give you cues to what the car is doing. It's the initial moment of force / change of direction that the seat mover excels at, while also giving a great sense of speed and feeling of the road being underneath you as you drive. A slight lift as you hit a raised curb, the throw back when accelerating out of the last second gear corner before hammering it down the pit straight, the bump you get up the ass from impatient AI as you're on an out lap, hitting a wall at Bathurst, the bouncing around while navigating the jumps of Sweden or Finland. These are the things that create immersion and believe-ability that we are driving a moving vehicle reacting to an environment. They portray a sense of speed, just like the wheel being super tight when under a massive amount of down-force in an F1 car when in a high speed corner.

To answer Rodney, there is no sustained energy when mid corner in a sweeping bend. The platform stays at the point as long as you're in the bend and as the lateral 'G-force' lessens once the car becomes straighter, the platform returns to somewhat level, depending what else is going on. That's the reason that I have created my profiles the way I have. It limits the unrealistic nature of the platform where (by default) longer sharper turn = more movement to either side. What you want is the initial movement and the strength of the force of your movement to transfer to the platform in a natural way. Smaller movements give a greater sense of immersion because in your car you are not tilted 40 degrees when mid turn around the Parabolica and Monza.

The sooner we allow G-force to not become a deciding factor in our motion platform choices, the sooner everyone will enjoy motion at home for what it is.

Edit: Also Rod, the settings in the V3 work in a similar fashion to how the gain settings work in SSW. There is a (sort of) sensitivity setting in the general profile, and then you can further tune the 'gain' and 'throw' of the platform for that particular profile, independent of all other profiles, for how hard and how far you want the platform to transmit the motion from telemetry to you.

At the beginning you only really had the option of the overall setting, which would (I think) adjust the sensitivity AND the overall feeling of the motion (so higher setting above 1.00 made it more sensitive to say, braking, but also made the platform move a lot as a result). Now, you have sort of like Simvibe (or SSW) style where there is a main % setting for sensitivity (I want to feel ALL the bumps, or only the largest bumps) and the dB setting for how hard you want to feel given bumps. It's done a lot by feel and that's why I spent time with the devs to implement what I felt the software needed to get it to that level of customization that Simvibe (arguably too much) has.

 

[Neil Farren]

So just pulled the trigger on a Sim Lab GT1 rig to mount my V3 to. Thanks to everyone here for all of the excellent advice.

 

[Magiashkii]

@HoiHman before I got my dbox system, I did reach out to Next Level about attaching my v3 to the chassis with dbox. They did get back to me and said it should be OK to use both but they have never tried for themselves. The engineers felt that is should be fine but then again I didn't want to be the guy to try it out first and find out it damaged the v3 which would be a big expense to send it back to Poland for repair. So long story short I sold off the v3 when I got the dbox system but also I still have my GS4 seat

 

[anton_Chez]

I wouldn't combine the seat mover with the chassis mover, but that's just me. Not for damage reason's or because you can't, just because I feel it's too much. Motion is all about subtle cues. Even a D-Box can get rough real quick and movement in that is not as jarring as a seat mover because it's moving the entire frame rather than just your body.

That's my two cents.

 

[Hiro Abe]

All this motion talk has had me on websites and currency conversions all night! I am not even looking for a new motion kit! But I love the actual build process of this hobby and it's half the reason it's so fun. The only problem is when you actually have some money to spend on it!

I wholeheartedly agree, @AntoN_CheZ! I enjoyed building from scratch my first rig which was out of 3/4" ply. I had a blast from the design process all the way through the build and making adjustments as I went and modding it thereafter. Now with an 8020 rig? Well, 8020 is a tinkerer's wet dream! Even after a year I'm still fiddling and making changes here and there. It has been an unexpected facet of this crazy hobby that I enjoy so much.