AMS2 1.5 hour race | Historic Multiclass | SPA 1993 | Thursday December 8th

[GeekyDeaks]

Had a good battle with @GeekyDeaks in the first half of the race. Sorry if i caused any damage during the race in T1 when i oversteered on the throttle and veered to the left making you run into me. I wasnt trying to cut you off, haha.

It was a great battle mate . I was trying not to take advantage when you were passing the GTs so you wouldn't feel under pressure and take risks, but I don't know if that made any difference

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

But some still going fast on the racing line as everyone is racing hard for positions.

I know that was part of rule outlined by Guido but i feel like for Blue flag it take practice as everyone behaves differently and when you combine that with the speed difference it can be hard.
Sure need to lose as little time as possible but also without holding up the faster car too much as that's what the blue flag is really for in the end.

It takes practice. However, in any multiclass league/series, or multiclass event these are the rules being used in, well, I can't say all, as I don't know that, but the wast majority. It is the faster class that has to pass safely. It's really frustrating when you catch a slower class car in an area where it is hard, or impossible to pass (right before Eau Rouge, so you have to slow down for Eau Rouge), Pouhon, Blanchimont etc. That's the part of multiclass racing though.

For cars with much more downforce, it's often smarter to do the undercut, as low/no-downforce cars will drift outwards. Same goes for modern prototypes and modern GT car. The prototypes are way more agile and have much more grip, so it's those who needs to consider this when passing. When a GT car has entered a corner, especially faster ones, it's much harder to change your mind midway to make changes. Now, I don't know how the GT-Vette behaved, but if I were to brake hard mid corner due to a Gr.C car deciding to lap me on the outside, then I would either lock up the fronts and go straight, or get so much front grip that I would spin. First lap at Eau Rouge on my stream (at 30:45) shows what happens with brake and turning at the same time in the Porsche.

Yet again, it's all down to practice and experience, but the reasons why this is the rule for blue flags in multiclass is because it is the easier way from the different cars, but when people know this, it is much easier to handle, as you don't get one driver jumping out of the way, one going slow on the inside, the next going slow on the outside and the fourth driving normally.

I do think the ghosting of cars in Practice Session in AMS2 makes it harder as well, I noticed that Gr.C cars often drove through me during practice. If that wouldn't happen, people wouldn't have the first experience with this in the actual race.

I am also very much aware of me having done 3 seasons of RDLMS, seasons of other Virtual Le Mans series and have hosted 60-70 multiclass events in rF2 since 2020 do have a lot of experience with this kind of racing, and thus look at it as very natural and logical

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Results:

Was I the only GT-Porsche under 2.40?
Was that why you could do so many more laps than me @Redvaliant ? Saving fuel?

 

[Munkyboo]

It takes practice. However, in any multiclass league/series, or multiclass event these are the rules being used in, well, I can't say all, as I don't know that, but the wast majority. It is the faster class that has to pass safely. It's really frustrating when you catch a slower class car in an area where it is hard, or impossible to pass (right before Eau Rouge, so you have to slow down for Eau Rouge), Pouhon, Blanchimont etc. That's the part of multiclass racing though.

For cars with much more downforce, it's often smarter to do the undercut, as low/no-downforce cars will drift outwards. Same goes for modern prototypes and modern GT car. The prototypes are way more agile and have much more grip, so it's those who needs to consider this when passing. When a GT car has entered a corner, especially faster ones, it's much harder to change your mind midway to make changes. Now, I don't know how the GT-Vette behaved, but if I were to brake hard mid corner due to a Gr.C car deciding to lap me on the outside, then I would either lock up the fronts and go straight, or get so much front grip that I would spin. First lap at Eau Rouge on my stream (at 30:45) shows what happens with brake and turning at the same time in the Porsche.

Yet again, it's all down to practice and experience, but the reasons why this is the rule for blue flags in multiclass is because it is the easier way from the different cars, but when people know this, it is much easier to handle, as you don't get one driver jumping out of the way, one going slow on the inside, the next going slow on the outside and the fourth driving normally.

I do think the ghosting of cars in Practice Session in AMS2 makes it harder as well, I noticed that Gr.C cars often drove through me during practice. If that wouldn't happen, people wouldn't have the first experience with this in the actual race.

I am also very much aware of me having done 3 seasons of RDLMS, seasons of other Virtual Le Mans series and have hosted 60-70 multiclass events in rF2 since 2020 do have a lot of experience with this kind of racing, and thus look at it as very natural and logical

No, now that you explain it that way it makes perfect sense.

I was comparing it to Group C blue flags for lapped Group C cars or any car as I definitely have to slow down and sometimes leave room open for them to pass.
But for multi class the speed difference is enough so blue flags don’t make a difference and just means not to defend the pass.

But the blue flags probably put pressure on drivers so what actually happened is lots of GT cars slowed down more than they needed and some were on the inside or outside. So I had that as my reference such that when I encountered GT cars that kept going fast I was put off guard.

Hope this can be made more clear so drivers don’t feel the need to let you through as soon as possible by slowing down before the turn, which can make things inconsistent.

I can see it’s best to assume the car won’t let you through by going off line, so that if they do, you can still pass cautiously rather than assuming they will slow down in the first place.

And I did have close incidents where I tried to pass on the outside as that was what was quickest without slowing down, but the GT cars do drift wide as you say which causes me more disadvantage.
So thanks for the advice, it’s useful.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

No, now that you explain it that way it makes perfect sense.

Woop Woop! I did something useful for once

I was comparing it to Group C blue flags for lapped Group C cars or any car as I definitely have to slow down to let them pass.
But for multi class the speed difference is enough so blue flags don’t make a difference and just means not to defend the pass.

Yup. I did lap one GT today before I was a victim of the server disconnect, and I was a bit unsure if that GT would let me by, or drive normally. So I assumed I wouldn't be let by. Easier that way and as the cars are equally matched, it is a bit easier to get what the other guy are doing.

But the blue flags probably put pressure on drivers so what actually happened is lots of GT cars slowed down more than they needed and some were on the inside or outside. So I had that as my reference such that when I encountered GT cars that kept going fast I was put off guard.

Yup. GT's error there. But that's why it is the racing club as well - learning stuff

Hope this can be made more clear so drivers don’t feel the need to let you through as soon as possible by slowing down before the turn, which can make things inconsistent.

Agreed. Slower classes should drive normally, and be told that again and again It might feel like it is helping when you slow down and move to a side, but it's not any help.
I remember my first season in RDLMS, might actually be the two first as well, back around 2010/2011 or something. My team were in LMP2, and the classes were LMP1, LMP2 and GT. So that meant we had to be aware that GT's drove normal, but at the same time, knowing that we had to drive normal when LMP1's came to lap us. Being in the middle class there was a quite hectic.
IIRC @Magnus Dahlgren drove in LMP2 as well?

I can see it’s best to assume the car won’t let you through by going off line, so that if they do, you can still pass cautiously rather than assuming they will slow down in the first place.

And I did have close incidents where I tried to pass on the outside as that was what was quickest without slowing down, but the GT cars do drift wide as you say which causes me more disadvantage.
So thanks for the advice, it’s useful.

Correct. Then again with experience and many races like this, it comes naturally. I did notice it on the Gr.C guys, the one I've raced with in multiclass in the rF2 events had in general more experience with it, and while I didn't know who was behind me, it was at time a difference.

I think you went to the outside of me at the top of Eau Rouge, the left hander, where I ended up forcing you off and @GeekyDeaks passed you? However, if I where to not drift outwards at the left hander there, I would have to go much slower, not only there, but through the whole Eau Rouge, so to do so, you both would've catched me in the middle of Eau Rouge instead.
So then I would've had to drive even slower to be able to stay on the inside through the right hander etc. That wouldn't been any better for anyone I think

But again. Experience is key in these events. I cannot remember the last time a "drivers meeting" was held before a club race either. So I really get that this kind of racing isn't the norm in AMS2, while for many of us rF2 guys that joined this race, it's something that many of us do quite often As I said, that's what the racing club is for! Learning, racing, having fun and messing up without any major consequences

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

For cars with much more downforce, it's often smarter to do the undercut, as low/no-downforce cars will drift outwards. Same goes for modern prototypes and modern GT car. The prototypes are way more agile and have much more grip, so it's those who needs to consider this when passing. When a GT car has entered a corner, especially faster ones, it's much harder to change your mind midway to make changes. Now, I don't know how the GT-Vette behaved, but if I were to brake hard mid corner due to a Gr.C car deciding to lap me on the outside, then I would either lock up the fronts and go straight, or get so much front grip that I would spin. First lap at Eau Rouge on my stream (at 30:45) shows what happens with brake and turning at the same time in the Porsche.

Most of the time I would agree, and most of the time I would wait for the exit/go underneath the GT.
However, with the speed difference of these cars, you could quite often complete the move around the outside before the GT would start to move towards the outside.
Pouhon and the right-left after are really good corners for this.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Most of the time I would agree, and most of the time I would wait for the exit/go underneath the GT.
However, with the speed difference of these cars, you could quite often complete the move around the outside before the GT would start to move towards the outside.
Pouhon and the left-right after are really good corners for this.

Yup. Certainly is with C1 v GT. As long as you remember that GT's will drift outwards and it is 100% your responsibilty to pass safely in a C1 car, then you are allowed to do anything really

 

[Magnus Dahlgren]

Agreed. Slower classes should drive normally, and be told that again and again It might feel like it is helping when you slow down and move to a side, but it's not any help.
I remember my first season in RDLMS, might actually be the two first as well, back around 2010/2011 or something. My team were in LMP2, and the classes were LMP1, LMP2 and GT. So that meant we had to be aware that GT's drove normal, but at the same time, knowing that we had to drive normal when LMP1's came to lap us. Being in the middle class there was a quite hectic.
IIRC @Magnus Dahlgren drove in LMP2 as well?

That’s right! Participated from Season 1 in the LMP2 class and continuing up till S5(when it got switched away from mainly prototypes to all GT’s if my memory serves me).
Round 2 at Monza was my first event!

But yeah, you‘re in an peciuliar situation where you are driving a seriously fast car/class but still is one step lower from, by comparison, an even more seriously faster class. And then the two lower GT classes… Imagine being in a LMP2 behind a GT1 trying to pass two GT2’s battling for position whilst you have the top 3 in LMP1(the overall leaders) closing up fast and eventually starts darting around in your rear view mirror looking to find a way through, sometimes things could get real hectic!
I learnt a lot from those 4 seasons of driving like that! Sadly I find myself a bit rusty at times nowadays but it‘s a skill that runs deep so all I have to do is find some endurance league(anyone?) so I can do this more regularly for upkeep!

Aahh, as always I’m looking back at the RDLMS with great fondness and a touch of nostalgia!
(I really wished it could make a return and hopefully get the same amount of teams and drivers like it had back then!)

In this race I have to say that the closing speeds were absolutely massive, and I only managed to enter the practice with some 17 minutes left, so I think there were at least three times I nearly pinballed some poor old GT into the barrier due to my limited time learning the difference in speeds. Worst is I had to stomp on the brakes for a slow GT which actually sent me into the barrier with heavy damage, this on my out lap so had to enter the pits straight away, losing even more time in the pits, but luckily the GT were without a scratch!

Btw. Cheers for sharing your stream @Ole Marius Myrvold , seeing you dancing with the steeringwheel reminded me how the lower class cars in AMS2 can be really fun to drive, almost thinking I’d chosen the wrong class! …Until I saw my GTP Vette just swooshing by!
I just gotta have that speed!

 

[James Skinner]

Was a great race, thanks guys - shame so many had technical issues, had a few stutters as the night closed in but nothing gamebreaking, although did have a scary incident with a Group C overtaking when it was teleporting here there and everywhere, the speed they were closing it was hard enough to tell where they were without that... Had a good race in sight of @Redvaliant for much of it until he pulled away but then closed right up again after the pitstop - now I know it's because he had fuel issues!

 

[Eric S]

I am gonna keep it short! It was just a great night! Lots of action on the road. There were some micro stutters and some performance issue down on Au Rouge, but besides that it worked like a charm in VR on my 3060ti.

 

[max1966i]

That was a lot of fun. Pity so many had technical issues, thankfully I did not so inherited second in GT which was undeserved.

Unfortunately got nudged on to the grass coming out La Source on the first lap as we got mixed up with the back of the Croup C grid which made for a fun charge back through the field. Poor pit strategy, mainly not enough fuel to 1 stop, meant being out of position again and another drive back through the RSR's, to once again end up in the pits for repairs...............

@Ole Marius Myrvold, thanks for posting the YT POV stream, the raw pooowah of the Corvete was the only reason I could catch up and retake you in to Blanchimont after our intial pitstops, which were out of sequence.

I wrongly thought you had then tipped me off retaking me through the slower second kink..........oh no it was a fast charging @Guido Trampe ............ ......(YT POV @ 1:18:50)

Hey ho s#it happens and the race was brilliant none the less. Thanks to all for joining and to Dan and Guido for organising. I will defo sogn up for any future Endurance events, BRING IT.

 

[James Skinner]

I'm also definitely up for another one of these. Also, if anyone wants the replay file I have it saved, although it's pretty chunky 600megs or so...

 

[Guido Trampe]

I wrongly thought you had then tipped me off retaking me through the slower second kink..........oh no it was a fast charging @Guido Trampe ............ ......(YT POV @ 1:18:50)

Yeah. Sorry about that. I took a bit to much risk. Waited a little for you afterwards but did not see you again and drove on.

 

[Magnus Dahlgren]

I'm also definitely up for another one of these. Also, if anyone wants the replay file I have it saved, although it's pretty chunky 600megs or so...

Oh yes very much please if you could upload!

 

[Guido Trampe]

To start with the bad... really sadening that the race ended for some off us like it did. I was stupid enough to push enter when it said that connection was lost. Heard from others that didn't that they coulddrive on. Will investigate on the issues.

But.......
It was a great pleasure to organize this event.
Respectfull driving
You all drove like seasoned racedrivers out for some fun and compettition. We survived T1 and Eau Rouge in lap 1. great achievement.
Quallify
We all drove in the timeslot that was predefined, very good. I was ready to intervene if a wrong classed car would be on track in timezone it was not supposed to. But non off that.. Perfect
Voice
Complete silence in Qually. I have done many off multiclass race in ACC league's. Never seen that before. I cant say how it was during racing since I need to turn it off to concentrate. But listening on the last 8 minutes this also sounded as very race mindend.
Pace
Obvious that we were going to race with skill sets from Multiclas novice till E-sports competitive. I think we did well. Looking back the speed difference seemed a bit to much between the classes (Daniel warned me about this but I can be very stubborn ).

So applause to you all. We will do another for sure. I will announce it again 3 weeks up front for everyone to plan and prepare.

As for my own race. I enjoyed it immensly. In my head I had won allready before the race started, preparring a fuel saving setup that would let me do 1 pitstop less then the rest. It turned out to be a "ferrari strategy". Hard tyres and turbo on 77% with a normal fuel mix made the car so slow that I lost many seconds per lap on cars I outqualified before. Lesson learned. I erased Binotto from my contact list in my mobile.

Allthough I could not keep up with the other Group C cars, the Multiclass made it a very dynamic race. The hype was real, felt and repeatable for sure!

Looking forward to the next one.

Thanks Daniel for helping me make this a succes and you all for participating and giving me a big smile on my face. AMS2 is alive!

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Quick strategy tip when fuel is the limiting factor like it was this race:

It's not always about standing still the shortest amount of time, it's about making efficient use of the fuel tank. Rich mixture with full boost is not necessarily inefficient, as it makes you go fast. It becomes inefficient when you have wheelspin or when you start pushing against really dense air at high speeds. If you can't put the power down, then it makes sense to drop the mixture and/or boost.

As for lift and coast, this is so much stronger when you have 2 or 3x fuel use set up. This is because no fuel is injected when you're in gear and off throttle. (Carburettors still squirt a tiny bit in, but it's negligible)

So with 2x fuel use, when you're in top gear, high revs, pushing against dense air, you're using (2*X) amount of fuel per second, with X being quite high in these conditions.
When you lift 100m or 150m earlier, you're using (2*0) fuel per second, which is of course still zero.

 

[Guido Trampe]

Quick strategy tip when fuel is the limiting factor like it was this race:

It's not always about standing still the shortest amount of time, it's about making efficient use of the fuel tank. Rich mixture with full boost is not necessarily inefficient, as it makes you go fast. It becomes inefficient when you have wheelspin or when you start pushing against really dense air at high speeds. If you can't put the power down, then it makes sense to drop the mixture and/or boost.

As for lift and coast, this is so much stronger when you have 2 or 3x fuel use set up. This is because no fuel is injected when you're in gear and off throttle. (Carburettors still squirt a tiny bit in, but it's negligible)

So with 2x fuel use, when you're in top gear, high revs, pushing against dense air, you're using (2*X) amount of fuel per second, with X being quite high in these conditions.
When you lift 100m or 150m earlier, you're using (2*0) fuel per second, which is of course still zero.

Thanks Enzo. Great info. Do you want me to give you Binotto's number? There is still a vacancy at Ferrari

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

That’s right! Participated from Season 1 in the LMP2 class and continuing up till S5(when it got switched away from mainly prototypes to all GT’s if my memory serves me).
Round 2 at Monza was my first event!

Not sure it ever went GT-Only. I know it went down to two classes in the end. One LMP and one GT.
I tried to join in season 2, but it wasn't until season 3 when Roy entered with a team that I actually got to join. It was Roy and myself, and whatever other Norwegian(s) we could find. So that varied from a 13yo kid to veterans and even one race we had a guy who actually got paid to do simracing. As a Norwegian back in 2012, that was rare. It was obvious the difference in skill as well. He made a setup that made us all a bit quicker, and he was fighting for first, while us others were in the lower half!

Aahh, as always I’m looking back at the RDLMS with great fondness and a touch of nostalgia!
(I really wished it could make a return and hopefully get the same amount of teams and drivers like it had back then!)

Those were great days. It was when it was done for fun, you could have 2-3 guys doing the broadcast, but not being overly serious. Brining in interviews, banter and takeaway bingo.
You can't do that anymore, people want professional level of broadcasting, prizes, both money and equipment etc. Organizing that is a whole lot of work as well. It's kinda sad to be honest.

Btw. Cheers for sharing your stream @Ole Marius Myrvold , seeing you dancing with the steeringwheel reminded me how the lower class cars in AMS2 can be really fun to drive, almost thinking I’d chosen the wrong class! …Until I saw my GTP Vette just swooshing by!
I just gotta have that speed!

No worries. It's one of the few times I race without hosting the event, so I decided to test out the streaming again. I hoped for some more action tbh, but you can't get it all
The GT-Vette was almost passing me as fast on the straight as the GTP-Vette

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

@Ole Marius Myrvold, thanks for posting the YT POV stream, the raw pooowah of the Corvete was the only reason I could catch up and retake you in to Blanchimont after our intial pitstops, which were out of sequence.

I wrongly thought you had then tipped me off retaking me through the slower second kink..........oh no it was a fast charging @Guido Trampe ............ ......(YT POV @ 1:18:50)

Did you think I'll punt you off. Not stop and wait and not say sorry on Discord? Thought you knew me better than that
Like I said on Discord, it was T1 that were the place I could make my move. So I was planning on having a good exit at Blanchimont, gain a bit under braking for the bus stop(s), hopefully get a better exit so you wouldn't go too far in front, and then send it on the inside of T1.
Not that you wouldn't overtake me on the kemmel straight again, but it was the only chance I had to get any kind of fighting that race!
In the end, the driving I had close to you and when I lapped @Bas Kriesels was the only times I actually had another GT close during the 81 minutes I got to drive

 

[max1966i]

Did you think I'll punt you off. Not stop and wait and not say sorry on Discord? Thought you knew me better than that

You're bang on.

I could only think the frustration of having to slow for my bus led to an optimistic re-pass........sorry..........in mitigation I hadn't even spotted a fast charging Guido and as I flew through the air I saw nothing but sky and the barrier

Watching your YT video clearly showed you would have needed to bend space and time as the speed difference (on the straights) was outrageous