RENNSPORT to Host Summit Event to Debut New Racing Simulator

MadDriver11 · May 30, 2022

BT7 Driver said:
Sorry for the further off-topic, but I hope this is allowed and a useful contribution...

@MadDriver11 wrote:

"No matter how many iterations iracing made, the issues still remain today: there is no combined longitudinal and lateral grip available. As soon as you use any grip in a given direction there is none left in the other."

"Basically as soon as you use any brakes the front wheels can't turn in the car anymore unless you make them very rear biased. That alone is showing without any doubt how their tire model is far from real life behavior."

If the quoted statements were true, it would be impossible to trail brake in iRacing and any attempt to do so would have the car ploughing straight onwards. So how do you explain the attached telemetry?

That's Jake Burton, a VRS coach, driving T3 (a hairpin turn) at Tsukuba Short in the Formula Vee. The cursor is placed at the start of his turning. The telemetry shows classic LFB trail braking technique with the car both turning and braking, and braking trailed off as the turning action increases thereby keeping the front tyres within the available traction budget, i.e. within or on the friction circle/ellipse. He's using the car's default setup and there is nothing unusual about the brake balance front/rear - 67.3%/32.7%. It's an entirely reasonable brake balance setting for a race car, well within what's plausible in RL.

There are doubtless flaws remaining in iRacing's new tyre model (NTM), but such fundamentally broken force combining behaviour as you claim above isn't one of them. There are also some tyre behaviours still not modelled, after 10+ years of NTM development.

As a result, there are some exploits available in iRacing, as the top eSports drivers have quickly latched onto. The most obvious one currently is the so-called 'brake dragging' exploit, though that name is starting to look like a poor description of what's actually happening.

Yes, GPL had more and bigger exploits, as you would expect given its age (released in 1998); the biggest was the throttle-braking exploit, heavily used by the 'aliens' of the time with their unstable-but-controllable (if you knew the trick) super-fast setups. As GPL did not capture pedal telemetry in its replay file, this behaviour and the full nature of the exploit was somewhat guessed at, but there have been at least two telemetry capture add-ons developed for GPL since then which have revealed in more detail how the exploit is applied. The simulation flaws that enable the exploit remain less than fully understood - in the absence of GPL's source code, reverse engineering efforts can only get so far.

View attachment 570640

Your telemetry shows clearly how the steering angle is almost zero until the brakes are kept on. That is because with the way iracing works, you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle. The way this is achieved is by moving the BB ridiculously rearward. If you keep the BB at a normal value for a proper car (like around 55% for a mid-engine proto instead of 48-49%) you will plough out of the corner.
You can take any stream from Daniel Morad using 49.2% at Le Mans and see how he gets into the chicanes at Hunaudieres straight almost without turning the wheel. He only turns it for the second turn of the chicane once he is off the brakes.
This is how it is done in iracing.
For reference this is what he is racing on LMP2 at Detroit just this moment.. 46%. Tell me if this is a realistic BB in any car ever since belt brakes were replaced by drums.

Jugulador · May 30, 2022

Eckhart von Glan said:
Fascinating how this thread has developped into a discussion led by professional insiders with amazing expert knowledge about the merits of a differnet game's tire model. Sometimes you cannot beat RD.

Well... this discussion have one of Assetto Corsa's fathers... sooooooo, please, keep calm and don't ad-hominem

mclarenf1papa · May 31, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
But they are still toys.

They are also still niche and nobody cares about them, proven by the incredibly small number of people who play these games, or watch it's esports events.

Skills are not very translatable from real to sim, no matter how much people sugar coat it, there is no substitute for seat time. You can learn the basics in the same, but car control and feeling the limits have to be done in a real car, period.

The fact real racing drivers take part in it means nothing,because real racing is already a niche, and even so, nobody in their right minds would ever consider watching simracing over a real race. I know i wouldn't.

No, they are not close to the real thing. The real thing has infinite permutations and variables. We in the sim/game have a sketch of the real thing at best. Its a toy yes.

And yes, i know teams use simulators. None of them is used to teach car control or how to actually drive a car at the limit, but just to practice tracks and setup combinations based on the data they have, to speed up some processes.

I will say it again, you can't replace seat time.

Now back on topic, the game looks interesting, and the mod support definitely caught my hear.

It does seem to be the theme of these discussions, but I disagree with most of this post.

1. real->sim is difficult for most if they had not had any sim exposure, removing sensations utilized to feel a car's limit can be tricky. However, sim->real (or sim and real in conjunction) is quite easy for most. Using myself as an example, I have no difficulty driving a real car on track at pace having learned techniques exclusively from sim racing.

2. "None of them is used to teach car control or how to actually drive a car at the limit" is completely incorrect. I hesitate to say most, but a large portion of sims for "professional" use cases are used to aid real driving, especially for Bronze rated drivers in professional racing. It is very much about car control, and being able to take cars to the limit/beyond with no penalties is one of the greatest benefits of simulation. And if a simulation is (truly) good enough for setup development, it is by far and away good enough to practice/learn driving.

Andy Kettler · May 31, 2022

Jugulador · May 31, 2022

Andy Kettler said:

Won't be GamerMuscle if he didn't spent more than a half of the video showing stuff that really don't care and when it comes to the subject, he simply fail to show it right.

This game still more obscure than a couple of ninjas fornicating under the pale moonlight

Andy Kettler · May 31, 2022

What are you talking about lol ?

Was a great video showing the event and event location !

Mekonrider · May 31, 2022

The thing about sim racing and 'realness' is it will always come 2nd place if I have limited time available. I don't care if this sim or any sim is the most sim of all sims - if I've got to make a choice between riding my motorbike and cockpit time then the bike wins. Thinking about it, the only reason I'm on sims is the fact can't afford to do it in real life. If I had the cars, the time and the money you'd never catch me behind a sim wheel again.

I've got a friend who races and he spends more on tyres and entry fees in a weekend that most sim racers will spend in years. The real world is very expensive.

Metla · May 31, 2022

Well, Aside from the fact this all looked very dodgy a few weeks ago, I'm all for new ways of thinking and approaches as it pertains to this hobby.

I'm going to say I still have little idea of whats going on, and that could be a good thing as it means its fresh (or poorly communicated), whether I support this with time and money remains to be seen...But I'm not writing it off before it even starts because I have my head stuck up my arse.

Personally I'm hoping its shaped as an alternative iRacing.

Richard Wilks · May 31, 2022

mclarenf1papa said:
It does seem to be the theme of these discussions, but I disagree with most of this post.

1. real->sim is difficult for most if they had not had any sim exposure, removing sensations utilized to feel a car's limit can be tricky. However, sim->real (or sim and real in conjunction) is quite easy for most. Using myself as an example, I have no difficulty driving a real car on track at pace having learned techniques exclusively from sim racing.

2. "None of them is used to teach car control or how to actually drive a car at the limit" is completely incorrect. I hesitate to say most, but a large portion of sims for "professional" use cases are used to aid real driving, especially for Bronze rated drivers in professional racing. It is very much about car control, and being able to take cars to the limit/beyond with no penalties is one of the greatest benefits of simulation. And if a simulation is (truly) good enough for setup development, it is by far and away good enough to practice/learn driving.

I am still awaiting , and i will wait forever to be proven wrong on this beyond just words.

Until someone comes along, that only drove a game all its life, sits in a real car, and first time out (and i do really mean first time out) can replicate what he does in the game, as in matching world class performance in a specific car that is the same in the game, only then you are replacing seat time.

There is no shortage of people and kids who sit in a vehicle on a track and can be up to speed quickly. Even before games existed. I found no correlation whatsoever between this and hours you spent in racing games, despite just learning the fundamental basics of racing lines.

MadDriver11 · May 31, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
I am still awaiting , and i will wait forever to be proven wrong on this beyond just words.

Until someone comes along, that only drove a game all its life, sits in a real car, and first time out (and i do really mean first time out) can replicate what he does in the game, as in matching world class performance in a specific car that is the same in the game, only then you are replacing seat time.

There is no shortage of people and kids who sit in a vehicle on a track and can be up to speed quickly. Even before games existed. I found no correlation whatsoever between this and hours you spent in racing games, despite just learning the fundamental basics of racing lines.

Exactly. The few who transitioned to real life racing with world class results (really few) were probably just talents that hadn't found their way to mainstream racing in a different way, either because of shortage of opportunity or because they maybe did not consider racing until later on in their life instead of starting karts at 4 years of age.

Ghoults · May 31, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
But they are still toys.

They are also still niche and nobody cares about them, proven by the incredibly small number of people who play these games, or watch it's esports events.

Ac is on top 100 of steam based on daily averages. At 1.4 million sales or so according to wikipedia, not bad for a niche title.

Not bad considering there is not thought whatsover put into ac making it e-sports other than third party mods. I don't think it is niche at all. Sure it is not at the level of the heavy hitters but those heavy hitters are made with e-sports in mind. No racing sim has really attempted that e-sports route at all, except iracing. And they are a household name. Racing games are really popular overall considering how few of them are out there.

Richard Wilks said:
Skills are not very translatable from real to sim, no matter how much people sugar coat it, there is no substitute for seat time. You can learn the basics in the same, but car control and feeling the limits have to be done in a real car, period.

Bulls*it. All kinds of different skill translate from simracing to real life. How to catch a car, how your feet and hands move, how to prepare and deal with tank slappers, how to trail and ease the car into a corner, the racing line, how to set up a pass or slipstream. All that translates exactly as is. Seat time in real car is overrated and expensive.

Most people doing trackdays doodle around at 80% of the speeds they do in real life while paying three figure sums per lep in their daily driver to do it. It is shame that amazing work that has been put into this hobby over decades is dismissed so lightly and ignorantly. Just because of some fundamental differences the actual driving is fairly similar. The feel in real car comes from g-forces, sense of touch through the seat and pedals, vision and audio. In sim we get just the vision and audio and a feel how hard we are pressing the pedal. It is little different and comparable to having a camera in a car. Not something totally different.

Richard Wilks said:
The fact real racing drivers take part in it means nothing,because real racing is already a niche, and even so, nobody in their right minds would ever consider watching simracing over a real race. I know i wouldn't.

This is proper boomer talk here. Twitch and youtube gets tons and tons of views with people watching others play a game. It happens and it happens a lot. Would I watch e-sport event over f1 or motogp race, or a big gt event like, lemans or nordschleife 24h? Probably not. But I'd definitely watch a 24h stream of simracing lemans over your average real life gt3 event for example. As would a lot of other people.

The viewing figures of gran turismo events, f1 esports events and other big simracing events prove there is a lot of viwers and room for growth. And why should simracing even compete with real life motorsports? They can happily coexist and work together to do what the other can not do.

Richard Wilks said:
I am still awaiting , and i will wait forever to be proven wrong on this beyond just words.

Until someone comes along, that only drove a game all its life, sits in a real car, and first time out (and i do really mean first time out) can replicate what he does in the game, as in matching world class performance in a specific car that is the same in the game, only then you are replacing seat time.

There is no shortage of people and kids who sit in a vehicle on a track and can be up to speed quickly. Even before games existed. I found no correlation whatsoever between this and hours you spent in racing games, despite just learning the fundamental basics of racing lines.

Max Verstappen, Lando Norris. Better google them.

Richard Wilks · May 31, 2022

Ghoults said:
Ac is on top 100 of steam based on daily averages. At 1.4 million sales or so according to wikipedia, not bad for a niche title.

Not bad considering there is not thought whatsover put into ac making it e-sports other than third party mods. I don't think it is niche at all. Sure it is not at the level of the heavy hitters but those heavy hitters are made with e-sports in mind. No racing sim has really attempted that e-sports route at all, except iracing. And they are a household name. Racing games are really popular overall considering how few of them are out there.

Bulls*it. All kinds of different skill translate from simracing to real life. How to catch a car, how your feet and hands move, how to prepare and deal with tank slappers, how to trail and ease the car into a corner, the racing line, how to set up a pass or slipstream. All that translates exactly as is. Seat time in real car is overrated and expensive.

Most people doing trackdays doodle around at 80% of the speeds they do in real life while paying three figure sums per lep in their daily driver to do it. It is shame that amazing work that has been put into this hobby over decades is dismissed so lightly and ignorantly. Just because of some fundamental differences the actual driving is fairly similar. The feel in real car comes from g-forces, sense of touch through the seat and pedals, vision and audio. In sim we get just the vision and audio and a feel how hard we are pressing the pedal. It is little different and comparable to having a camera in a car. Not something totally different.

This is proper boomer talk here. Twitch and youtube gets tons and tons of views with people watching others play a game. It happens and it happens a lot. Would I watch e-sport event over f1 or motogp race, or a big gt event like, lemans or nordschleife 24h? Probably not. But I'd definitely watch a 24h stream of simracing lemans over your average real life gt3 event for example. As would a lot of other people.

The viewing figures of gran turismo events, f1 esports events and other big simracing events prove there is a lot of viwers and room for growth. And why should simracing even compete with real life motorsports? They can happily coexist and work together to do what the other can not do.

Max Verstappen, Lando Norris. Better google them.

My gosh, where to start....

About your talk about seat time being "overrated", i can tell just by that you never drove a real car in anger on a track, and if you did, you are just salty because you cant do it more. You can know the "theory" of doing all that, but without feeling the signs of a real car, without learning how to feel all that through your body, its like learning karate by reading a book. Your brain won't know what do it, when to do it, because the cues that tell you what to do and when, come from a totally different place.

Hell i can make the analogy for fighter pilots, why bother with really expensive flying miles to train them, when you could do all in the simulator right?...

If it was like how you described, real teams in F1 these days wouldnt bother with the names you mention in the end of this nonsense you wrote, they would go straight to the esports players. Yet they dont, do they? I wonder why, maybe they know stuff you don't...

As for the viewership on simracing esports, they are dismal. So dismal in fact, that most events are canned not long after they started, due to lack of funds. Iracing has been going on for years, and their viewship has hardly grown.

More people watch broadbent picking his nose than they do the official streams of any simracing esport event. And this include the biggest ones.

This hobby is going so strong, even the simracing expo had to leave the ring to basically being the opening act of something else in Nuremberg.

Gran turismo goes way beyond "simracing", its a car culture icon, that transcends this, and even GT sport didnt get the following and the numbers they all expected, and despite the meassive investment, it remains a video game niche. The same for your AC example. AC these days is a quase gran turismo/car youtuber wannabe game for PC with the mods around. Hardly any "racing" happens there.

And thats fine. Thats what you are doing pal, you, and us all here. We are playing videogames. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am under no illusions about this, unlike you. Which is funny, because to me thats the real boomer talk "oh no, this is not a game, this is a SIM!"...

Jugulador · May 31, 2022

Andy Kettler said:
What are you talking about lol ?

Was a great video showing the event and event location !

Yeeeeeeee... because this site is ArchitectureDepartment

pai · May 31, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
I am still awaiting , and i will wait forever to be proven wrong on this beyond just words.

Until someone comes along, that only drove a game all its life, sits in a real car, and first time out (and i do really mean first time out) can replicate what he does in the game, as in matching world class performance in a specific car that is the same in the game, only then you are replacing seat time.

There is no shortage of people and kids who sit in a vehicle on a track and can be up to speed quickly. Even before games existed. I found no correlation whatsoever between this and hours you spent in racing games, despite just learning the fundamental basics of racing lines.

Agustin Canapino from Argentina. His father, a famous racecar constructor/tuner, wouldn't let him get close to a racecar, so all he could do was simrace with the F12002-mod-turned-into-game "TC2000 25 Años" for a couple years. Given that he is from Arrecifes, a city with lots of people into professional racing, he got in touch with a pro driver from Turismo Carretera, and arranged him a 10 lap test on a racecar. He had never driven one before.

He starts doing laps, and by the 3rd lap, the pro looks at the stopwatch, grabs a phone and calls his father: "Your kid is driving a racecar for the first time and he's already on pace. Give him a drive, he's a real deal".

Fast forward 15 years and he's now one of the most renowned drivers on the country, while not stopping his simracing activity, where he's on par with the top aliens of the world.

A rare case? Yes. But one counterexample is all it takes to debunk a theory.

mclarenf1papa · May 31, 2022

This was my third time in a real car on track vs the sim (and this is coming from someone who took a few years in sim racing to get to a fast pace). Only things to get used to throughout the whole process were the fear of putting the car off and shifting with the terrible manual linkage that's on the car. I can slide the car around (and drift my road car) exclusively from having learned it in the sim. And as for limit driving, you can see from above that I utilize the amount of grip the car has very similarly between the sim and real life (only real differences being that the car model was very low effort on my part and the rearward brake bias + bad gearbox makes combined grip entries a bit scary in real life).

And it being a first time out has nothing to do with whether or not there is replacement of seat time. There are always going to be things in real life that you'll miss in a sim (e.g. fear of putting the car off) that will affect your driving or the learning curve of being in a real car. It doesn't mean you're not learning how to drive from the sim. No one is saying it's a 1:1 replacement, but that doesn't mean it's the flip side (your argument), which is demonstrably incorrect.

Jugulador · May 31, 2022

pai said:
Agustin Canapino from Argentina. His father, a famous racecar constructor/tuner, wouldn't let him get close to a racecar, so all he could do was simrace with the F12002-mod-turned-into-game "TC2000 25 Años" for a couple years. Given that he is from Arrecifes, a city with lots of people into professional racing, he got in touch with a pro driver from Turismo Carretera, and arranged him a 10 lap test on a racecar. He had never driven one before.

He starts doing laps, and by the 3rd lap, the pro looks at the stopwatch, grabs a phone and calls his father: "Your kid is driving a racecar for the first time and he's already on pace. Give him a drive, he's a real deal".

Fast forward 15 years and he's now one of the most renowned drivers on the country, while not stopping his simracing activity, where he's on par with the top aliens of the world.

A rare case? Yes. But one counterexample is all it takes to debunk a theory.

There is, also, Greger Huttu:

Richard Wilks · May 31, 2022

pai said:
Agustin Canapino from Argentina. His father, a famous racecar constructor/tuner, wouldn't let him get close to a racecar, so all he could do was simrace with the F12002-mod-turned-into-game "TC2000 25 Años" for a couple years. Given that he is from Arrecifes, a city with lots of people into professional racing, he got in touch with a pro driver from Turismo Carretera, and arranged him a 10 lap test on a racecar. He had never driven one before.

He starts doing laps, and by the 3rd lap, the pro looks at the stopwatch, grabs a phone and calls his father: "Your kid is driving a racecar for the first time and he's already on pace. Give him a drive, he's a real deal".

Fast forward 15 years and he's now one of the most renowned drivers on the country, while not stopping his simracing activity, where he's on par with the top aliens of the world.

A rare case? Yes. But one counterexample is all it takes to debunk a theory.

That doesnt debunk anything.

Like i said before, the world of racing is littered with examples of people that sat in a car, or even in a bike, and were good straight away. I can give even more examples of that, of famous racers that never even touched a video game.

Richard Wilks · May 31, 2022

mclarenf1papa said:
View attachment 570822

This was my third time in a real car on track vs the sim (and this is coming from someone who took a few years in sim racing to get to a fast pace). Only things to get used to throughout the whole process were the fear of putting the car off and shifting with the terrible manual linkage that's on the car. I can slide the car around (and drift my road car) exclusively from having learned it in the sim. And as for limit driving, you can see from above that I utilize the amount of grip the car has very similarly between the sim and real life (only real differences being that the car model was very low effort on my part and the rearward brake bias + bad gearbox makes combined grip entries a bit scary in real life).

And it being a first time out has nothing to do with whether or not there is replacement of seat time. There are always going to be things in real life that you'll miss in a sim (e.g. fear of putting the car off) that will affect your driving or the learning curve of being in a real car. It doesn't mean you're not learning how to drive from the sim. No one is saying it's a 1:1 replacement, but that doesn't mean it's the flip side (your argument), which is demonstrably incorrect.

My argument is simple. The sim doesnt replace seat time. No amount of shiny graphics proves the point that you can't LEARN how to drive a car in the absolute limit, if you dont even FEEL the thing sitting in your room.

pai · May 31, 2022

Maybe the problem here is that it's hard to distinguish the difference between learning car control from the sim and transfer it to the real car, and an equivalence where regularly somebody who is good in a sim is also good on a racecar, even if one does not teach the other.

Although if somebody had a big learning curve in a sim to be fast, and then it's fast much sooner on a real car, it would point out something.

While it's true that driving via eyes and FFB is not even close to driving by your ass, many of us had troubles in quickly understanding how important is to have smooth inputs and how racing lines truly work. In my case, it took me years to be competitive at rFactor league level, and could feel how what I learned on a sim was very useful when I applied it on a rental go-kart (not all things ofc).

mclarenf1papa · May 31, 2022

pai said:
Although if somebody had a big learning curve in a sim to be fast, and then it's fast much sooner on a real car, it would point out something.

This was pretty much the point of my post. It took me a long time to get up to proper pace in the sim, and barring the fear factor (and frankly being overwhelmed by the additional vibration/noise/etc in a race car), I was right up to that speed in real life. I'm maybe 6 tenths slower in the sim and it's all in the entry of fast/blind corners. Don't want to bin it.

And having worked with drivers who have used sim time as a replacement for real seat time, it's amazing to me that this is even a discussion. One of IER's bigger clients raced at Mid Ohio in IMSA a few weeks ago. He had never driven the real car on that track and missed the entirety of FP1 that weekend (there are only 2 practice sessions in IMSA). Lapped all but one car in class (who he had a circa 1 min lead over) by the end of his second stint. The sim has been a massive contributing factor to him learning and developing his car control abilities. Not to mention things like practicing tire conservation, pit lane entry/exit optimization, sticker tire practice, scrubbed tire practice, etc. All tangible skill developments that are directly transferable to the real car.

Richard Wilks said:
My argument is simple. The sim doesnt replace seat time. No amount of shiny graphics proves the point that you can't LEARN how to drive a car in the absolute limit, if you dont even FEEL the thing sitting in your room.

So, if you look more into what the shiny graphics actually mean, it might help.

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What's needed for simracing in 2024?

More games, period

Better graphics/visuals

Advanced physics and handling

More cars and tracks

AI improvements

AI engineering

Cross-platform play

New game Modes

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