RENNSPORT to Host Summit Event to Debut New Racing Simulator

Wayne Hutchison · Jun 1, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
My argument is simple. The sim doesnt replace seat time. No amount of shiny graphics proves the point that you can't LEARN how to drive a car in the absolute limit, if you dont even FEEL the thing sitting in your room.

There's a fair number of motion rigs out there. And real world drivers use motion simulators more than they drive their real cars.

Richard Wilks · Jun 1, 2022

mclarenf1papa said:
This was pretty much the point of my post. It took me a long time to get up to proper pace in the sim, and barring the fear factor (and frankly being overwhelmed by the additional vibration/noise/etc in a race car), I was right up to that speed in real life. I'm maybe 6 tenths slower in the sim and it's all in the entry of fast/blind corners. Don't want to bin it.

And having worked with drivers who have used sim time as a replacement for real seat time, it's amazing to me that this is even a discussion. One of IER's bigger clients raced at Mid Ohio in IMSA a few weeks ago. He had never driven the real car on that track and missed the entirety of FP1 that weekend (there are only 2 practice sessions in IMSA). Lapped all but one car in class (who he had a circa 1 min lead over) by the end of his second stint. The sim has been a massive contributing factor to him learning and developing his car control abilities. Not to mention things like practicing tire conservation, pit lane entry/exit optimization, sticker tire practice, scrubbed tire practice, etc. All tangible skill developments that are directly transferable to the real car.

So, if you look more into what the shiny graphics actually mean, it might help.

You can't prove it and you know it.

Like i said , you can learn lines and your way around a track. You can't learn how to feel and handle a car at the limit.

Richard Wilks · Jun 1, 2022

Wayne Hutchison said:
There's a fair number of motion rigs out there. And real world drivers use motion simulators more than they drive their real cars.

No motion rig can produce a sustained force of more than 1g instantly. They are just a gimmick most of the time.

Mr Deap · Jun 1, 2022

Jugulador said:
Won't be GamerMuscle if he didn't spent more than a half of the video showing stuff that really don't care and when it comes to the subject, he simply fail to show it right.

This game still more obscure than a couple of ninjas fornicating under the pale moonlight

huh? He showed everything that is relevant into the even. All the hardware, food, presentation, all the color, advertising & the cool peeps there.

mclarenf1papa · Jun 1, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
You can't prove it and you know it.

Like i said , you can learn lines and your way around a track. You can't learn how to feel and handle a car at the limit.

Again, learning how to read the plot I showed would really help you out here.... Anyway, this is a brick wall discussion as you're dismissing any counter arguments (no matter their level of support) and providing no support for your own, which is pretty clearly incorrect, so might as well return to the intended topic of the thread.

Richard Wilks · Jun 1, 2022

mclarenf1papa said:
Again, learning how to read the plot I showed would really help you out here.... Anyway, this is a brick wall discussion as you're dismissing any counter arguments (no matter their level of support) and providing no support for your own, which is pretty clearly incorrect, so might as well return to the intended topic of the thread.

You are the one who are failing to prove anything and keep going offtopic.

I said multiple times, games can help you learn the track, braking points and all that.

But cannot teach you how to feel a car on the limit, which is the skill that separates simply knowing your way around a track, from being a highly skilled driver.

I guess you have compreension problems.

mclarenf1papa · Jun 1, 2022

Only reason I'm continuing this discussion is for anyone following along who actually might either learn something or be interested in the data I'm presenting.

Richard Wilks said:
You are the one who are failing to prove anything and keep going offtopic.

I said multiple times, games can help you learn the track, braking points and all that.

But cannot teach you how to feel a car on the limit, which is the skill that separates simply knowing your way around a track, from being a highly skilled driver.

I guess you have compreension problems.

No, I very well understand your point. My point is that the G-G diagram shows a car driven on the limit in both the sim and real life. You don't get something that looks like that from not understanding car control.

A more typical G-G trace would look like this:

Very little combined grip used on braking, but lateral and longitudinal peaks are similar. The full use of combined grip in a car on track is, by definition, driving the car on the limit. The G-G I posted of my driving shows very similar combined grip usage between the sim and real life, meaning the car was driven to its limits in a similar manner despite me having no prior track experience. As previously stated, you do not otherwise get that in your 1st/2nd/3rd day of driving a car unless you're a prodigy, which I am not. This has nothing to do with the racing line or braking points, it is about driving on the limit. If I wanted to show the racing line and braking points, I'd have shown those.

And I'll add, not only was this the third day of driving the car on track, but it was also prior to driving a sim model of this car on this track. So not only did my sim skills transfer to real life, they transferred to an unknown environment in real life.

Richard Wilks · Jun 1, 2022

mclarenf1papa said:
Only reason I'm continuing this discussion is for anyone following along who actually might either learn something or be interested in the data I'm presenting.

No, I very well understand your point. My point is that the G-G diagram shows a car driven on the limit in both the sim and real life. You don't get something that looks like that from not understanding car control.

A more typical G-G trace would look like this:
View attachment 571065

Very little combined grip used on braking, but lateral and longitudinal peaks are similar. The full use of combined grip in a car on track is, by definition, driving the car on the limit. The G-G I posted of my driving shows very similar combined grip usage between the sim and real life, meaning the car was driven to its limits in a similar manner despite me having no prior track experience. As previously stated, you do not otherwise get that in your 1st/2nd/3rd day of driving a car unless you're a prodigy, which I am not. This has nothing to do with the racing line or braking points, it is about driving on the limit. If I wanted to show the racing line and braking points, I'd have shown those.

And I'll add, not only was this the third day of driving the car on track, but it was also prior to driving a sim model of this car on this track. So not only did my sim skills transfer to real life, they transferred to an unknown environment in real life.

So basically you are yet again trying to promote yourself...

Nobody cares about that actually, and i dont know if you noticed, nobody else is reading this thread anymore.

I can also get a journey man that will drive a car at 90% of its capacity on a game, make a nice telemetry graphic, then do the same on the track, and if the numbers on the car are reasonably correct, make a nice graphic that looks like that. You admit yourself you are not a skilled driver, so why are you using yourself as an example.

Stop wasting my time.

mclarenf1papa · Jun 1, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
You admit yourself you are not a skilled driver

What percentage of the words I write do you actually read? Maybe that's the issue

Jugulador · Jun 1, 2022

Finally some decent coverage (1:00 forward is the actual game):

Ghoults · Jun 1, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
My gosh, where to start....

Well apparently you started with a psychological analysis about my character and lots of weird assumptions about what I do or have done in my life. Whatever.

Kenny Paton · Jun 1, 2022

Ladies let's drag this back onto the thread topic please
Now there's actually news to report.

Richard Wilks · Jun 1, 2022

Very informative.

Patrik Marek · Jun 1, 2022

visually it looks quite nice, looking forward to hear more info on this

would be nice if it wasn't GT3 , but then again, GT3 is the most popular racing out there, so it's hard to tell if it's actually gonna sell less because of that or more ( which - imo - is more likely )

Bram Hengeveld · Jun 2, 2022

Eckhart von Glan said:
amazing memory, Bram. the 100 dollar question: where or how did you get your demo from? in this case I can still remember, actually.

Good question? Steam?

I know I bought my game physically at the gameshop 50km from my home as I really wanted to have it on release day

Eckhart von Glan · Jun 2, 2022

Bram Hengeveld said:
Good question? Steam?

I know I bought my game physically at the gameshop 50km from my home as I really wanted to have it on release day

Did Steam even exist? If my memory serves me right, I also got the first one at a retailer on day one because I was a big WTCC fan at the time (ah, the blue Chevies) and Race07 a year later was then distributed via steam which everyone hated at the time but which made sense as that version supported players' skins and modded tracks which work better, if I understand this correctly, in an environment that forces you to always run the latest version of the base game.
So: I never got a demo after all.

BT7 Driver · Jun 2, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
Your telemetry shows clearly how the steering angle is almost zero until the brakes are kept on. That is because with the way iracing works, you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle. The way this is achieved is by moving the BB ridiculously rearward. If you keep the BB at a normal value for a proper car (like around 55% for a mid-engine proto instead of 48-49%) you will plough out of the corner.
You can take any stream from Daniel Morad using 49.2% at Le Mans and see how he gets into the chicanes at Hunaudieres straight almost without turning the wheel. He only turns it for the second turn of the chicane once he is off the brakes.
This is how it is done in iracing.
For reference this is what he is racing on LMP2 at Detroit just this moment.. 46%. Tell me if this is a realistic BB in any car ever since belt brakes were replaced by drums.

Sorry for the off-topic again moderators, but I feel the need to reply to this. It will be my final post in this thread, I promise.

@mclarenf1papa - I value your posts Jackson. But maybe they would be better posted in threads other than these news threads?

@MadDriver11 wrote: "Your telemetry shows clearly how the steering angle is almost zero until the brakes are kept on. That is because with the way iracing works, you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle. The way this is achieved is by moving the BB ridiculously rearward."

You have a creative and interesting definition of "almost zero". The fact that you are stretching this point is rather telling, actually. This is trail braking and there is a finite grip budget to be balanced between lateral and longitudinal use. Major steering lock is only wound on progressively, as the brakes get released, thus keeping the tyres within the traction circle/ellipse. The fact that this characteristic is clearly visible in these telemetry traces confirms that iRacing probably have this dynamic behaviour broadly correct, yet you claim that they have it fundamentally broken.

Also, what exactly does "until the brakes are kept on" mean?

Formula Vee Analysis

Here's some more analysis for the second hairpin from Jake's fastest lap for Tsukuba Short, attached below as the first plot. It's the same plot shown in my previous post, but I have added labelling to the track map and between the brake and steering plots to show the distinct phases of cornering:

1A) Start of braking.
1B) Start of significant steering input, i.e. from this point onward definitely not "almost zero" by any reasonable definition of that term.
1C) End of significant braking input (10%) and start of final brake release.
1D) Brakes fully off.
1E) End of peak steering input and start of lock release.
1F) Neutral steer achieved at corner exit.

Also, two new samples for you, attached below with the same labelling convention (the letters):

2) Second hairpin from Jake's fastest lap driven for Tsukuba Long.

3) Third hairpin, same lap.

Between points B and C in these plots there is combined braking and turning action. The distances between those points are respectively around 65, 50 and 85 meters in the three examples, i.e. substantial segments of each corner. Yet you claim "there is no combined longitudinal and lateral grip available. As soon as you use any grip in a given direction there is none left in the other".

Between points D and F, the car is being steered through steering action alone. That phase accounts for over 50% of the total directional change for these three corners. Yet you claim that "you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle" in iRacing.

The segment B through F accounts for most of these corners and it features either trail braking (combined braking and turning) or steering alone. Yet you claim that in iRacing most turning is achieved by using the brakes alone, with steering "almost zero".

So, to be clear:

I've shown three sets of telemetry evidence which demonstrate that one iRacing car, the Formula Vee, when used with reasonable brake bias (67.3%/32.7% front/rear), is capable of plausible trail braking behaviour (combined braking and turning). It therefore does not exhibit a gross error in the sim's force combining, which you claim to be a defining characteristic of the iRacing simulation. You didn't caveat or qualify what you said in any way, you said it is "the way iracing works".

LMP2/Dallara P217

You are talking of a different car, the Dallara P217 and you've shown an example of a driver that is running an unusual brake balance, but that's not proof of a force combining problem in the physics simulation. It's more likely an indication of some other vehicle dynamics simulation problem or exploit for that particular car, maybe others too.

It wouldn't be the first such exploit found in iRacing; there was another big one several years back, involving creative use of the pedals to recover from a spin by changing the dynamic balance of the car (shifting weight to the rear) in a way that was exaggerated compared to RL and/or would carry severe consequences for RL tyres - those consequences were (and still are) missing in iRacing's tyre simulation. @StefanoCasillo contributed to the debate around that exploit at the time, in iRacing's own forum.

Given that you are highlighting grossly rearward brake bias in Daniel's driving, this could again be a similar exploit for this car - a rearward dynamic weight shift would naturally increase the effectiveness of a rearward brake bias beyond what it ought to deliver. Perhaps iRacing never fully addressed the issue from that time? There was certainly never any detailed follow-up on what they did to address the problem, if anything.

You have not yet shown any telemetry for the iRacing Dallara P217. Do you have any to demonstrate how the car behaves with a range of brake bias settings? Does anybody else?

I have grabbed some from VRS. Attached below are telemetry traces for Mulsanne chicanes 1 (Right-Left-Right) and 2 (Left-Right-Left) at Le Mans, from the datapack produced by Martin Krönke driving the Dallara P217. It's his fastest lap (3:29.135) and he used brake bias 48.8%. The telemetry cursor is positioned at roughly the turn in point for each chicane. Whatever Daniel Morad might be doing with his driving, Martin certainly isn't going "into the chicanes at Hunaudieres straight almost without turning the wheel". It's certainly true that more steering lock is used in the centre section for each chicane, but that's expected - while the driver will naturally attempt to straighten the chicane entry and exit as far as possible, that isn't possible to the same extent for the centre section.

Is anybody willing to confirm what they consider to be realistic brake bias range for a P217 in real life please?

Sum-Up

@MadDriver11 - Claims resembling your claim in race sim forums (RD and many others, including iRacing's) always amuse me with their vague or hyperbolic wording and lack of qualification and nuance. They would be more credible if stated more precisely and supported by telemetry evidence, but that is rarely if ever seen. I wonder why?

I think it's possible that Stefano tired of this sort of forum behaviour over the years. Perhaps it was a factor in his decision to do something completely different in his career?

BTW, if iRacing chose to make them accessible to members, I would also show tyre slip angles, lateral forces and loads in these examples. Those telemetry channels are available or computable in some sims, such as LFS and rFactor2, but not in iRacing. Which is unhelpful, because they would assist evaluation (or proof) of the true quality and robustness of iRacing's vehicle dynamics simulation. The justification given by iRacing is that some channels would assist cheating and thereby compromise their competition system if made available to members.

Finally @MadDriver11 - I'm not picking on you in particular with this, so my apologies if that's the way it comes across. It could equally well be directed at some others in this forum and others elsewhere. You just provided a convenient example to respond to and use to make my points. Hopefully you will forgive me.

MadDriver11 · Jun 2, 2022

BT7 Driver said:
Sorry for the off-topic again moderators, but I feel the need to reply to this. It will be my final post in this thread, I promise.

@mclarenf1papa - I value your posts Jackson. But maybe they would be better posted in threads other than these news threads?

@MadDriver11 wrote: "Your telemetry shows clearly how the steering angle is almost zero until the brakes are kept on. That is because with the way iracing works, you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle. The way this is achieved is by moving the BB ridiculously rearward."

You have a creative and interesting definition of "almost zero". The fact that you are stretching this point is rather telling, actually. This is trail braking and there is a finite grip budget to be balanced between lateral and longitudinal use. Major steering lock is only wound on progressively, as the brakes get released, thus keeping the tyres within the traction circle/ellipse. The fact that this characteristic is clearly visible in these telemetry traces confirms that iRacing probably have this dynamic behaviour broadly correct, yet you claim that they have it fundamentally broken.

Also, what exactly does "until the brakes are kept on" mean?

Formula Vee Analysis

Here's some more analysis for the second hairpin from Jake's fastest lap for Tsukuba Short, attached below as the first plot. It's the same plot shown in my previous post, but I have added labelling to the track map and between the brake and steering plots to show the distinct phases of cornering:

1A) Start of braking.
1B) Start of significant steering input, i.e. from this point onward definitely not "almost zero" by any reasonable definition of that term.
1C) End of significant braking input (10%) and start of final brake release.
1D) Brakes fully off.
1E) End of peak steering input and start of lock release.
1F) Neutral steer achieved at corner exit.

Also, two new samples for you, attached below with the same labelling convention (the letters):

2) Second hairpin from Jake's fastest lap driven for Tsukuba Long.

3) Third hairpin, same lap.

Between points B and C in these plots there is combined braking and turning action. The distances between those points are respectively around 65, 50 and 85 meters in the three examples, i.e. substantial segments of each corner. Yet you claim "there is no combined longitudinal and lateral grip available. As soon as you use any grip in a given direction there is none left in the other".

Between points D and F, the car is being steered through steering action alone. That phase accounts for over 50% of the total directional change for these three corners. Yet you claim that "you turn the car by applying brakes and almost zero steering angle" in iRacing.

The segment B through F accounts for most of these corners and it features either trail braking (combined braking and turning) or steering alone. Yet you claim that in iRacing most turning is achieved by using the brakes alone, with steering "almost zero".

So, to be clear:

I've shown three sets of telemetry evidence which demonstrate that one iRacing car, the Formula Vee, when used with reasonable brake bias (67.3%/32.7% front/rear), is capable of plausible trail braking behaviour (combined braking and turning). It therefore does not exhibit a gross error in the sim's force combining, which you claim to be a defining characteristic of the iRacing simulation. You didn't caveat or qualify what you said in any way, you said it is "the way iracing works".

LMP2/Dallara P217

You are talking of a different car, the Dallara P217 and you've shown an example of a driver that is running an unusual brake balance, but that's not proof of a force combining problem in the physics simulation. It's more likely an indication of some other vehicle dynamics simulation problem or exploit for that particular car, maybe others too.

It wouldn't be the first such exploit found in iRacing; there was another big one several years back, involving creative use of the pedals to recover from a spin by changing the dynamic balance of the car (shifting weight to the rear) in a way that was exaggerated compared to RL and/or would carry severe consequences for RL tyres - those consequences were (and still are) missing in iRacing's tyre simulation. @StefanoCasillo contributed to the debate around that exploit at the time, in iRacing's own forum.

Given that you are highlighting grossly rearward brake bias in Daniel's driving, this could again be a similar exploit for this car - a rearward dynamic weight shift would naturally increase the effectiveness of a rearward brake bias beyond what it ought to deliver. Perhaps iRacing never fully addressed the issue from that time? There was certainly never any detailed follow-up on what they did to address the problem, if anything.

You have not yet shown any telemetry for the iRacing Dallara P217. Do you have any to demonstrate how the car behaves with a range of brake bias settings? Does anybody else?

I have grabbed some from VRS. Attached below are telemetry traces for Mulsanne chicanes 1 (Right-Left-Right) and 2 (Left-Right-Left) at Le Mans, from the datapack produced by Martin Krönke driving the Dallara P217. It's his fastest lap (3:29.135) and he used brake bias 48.8%. The telemetry cursor is positioned at roughly the turn in point for each chicane. Whatever Daniel Morad might be doing with his driving, Martin certainly isn't going "into the chicanes at Hunaudieres straight almost without turning the wheel". It's certainly true that more steering lock is used in the centre section for each chicane, but that's expected - while the driver will naturally attempt to straighten the chicane entry and exit as far as possible, that isn't possible to the same extent for the centre section.

Is anybody willing to confirm what they consider to be realistic brake bias range for a P217 in real life please?

Sum-Up

@MadDriver11 - Claims resembling your claim in race sim forums (RD and many others, including iRacing's) always amuse me with their vague or hyperbolic wording and lack of qualification and nuance. They would be more credible if stated more precisely and supported by telemetry evidence, but that is rarely if ever seen. I wonder why?

I think it's possible that Stefano tired of this sort of forum behaviour over the years. Perhaps it was a factor in his decision to do something completely different in his career?

BTW, if iRacing chose to make them accessible to members, I would also show tyre slip angles, lateral forces and loads in these examples. Those telemetry channels are available or computable in some sims, such as LFS and rFactor2, but not in iRacing. Which is unhelpful, because they would assist evaluation (or proof) of the true quality and robustness of iRacing's vehicle dynamics simulation. The justification given by iRacing is that some channels would assist cheating and thereby compromise their competition system if made available to members.

Finally @MadDriver11 - I'm not picking on you in particular with this, so my apologies if that's the way it comes across. It could equally well be directed at some others in this forum and others elsewhere. You just provided a convenient example to respond to and use to make my points. Hopefully you will forgive me.

LOL put it as you want. There is no need to fill your mouths with big telemetry screens where you apparently ready only what you want and ignore what you don't like. It's enough to watch the streams of people with high iR (Daniel Morad is one but there are a number of others I can suggest) and see what setups they use and what pedals and steering inputs they give. Maybe you can also compare to a real onboard and see the difference.
You will figure out quickly that no one drive a PCup with 48% BB or a Ferrari 488 with 50% BB, no one drives an LMP2 with 46% BB in real life and when they go into the chicanes on the Hunaudieres straight they actually turn the steering wheel.
There you go. I help you out.. See how the steering wheel is around 45 degrees when they get into the chicane. Now go watch Morad or someone else drive a completely rear brake biased car and you will notice they won't reach 20 degrees.

In iracing things are completely the opposite. Fast people going around with 48% and almost no steering input in comparison to real life

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

Facts talk, chat is good for nothing.

mclarenf1papa · Jun 3, 2022

BT7 Driver said:
Is anybody willing to confirm what they consider to be realistic brake bias range for a P217 in real life please?

53-56% as far as I know

RENNSPORT to Host Summit Event to Debut New Racing Simulator

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Ok, I am a dinosaur