Metacritic users rate Gran Turismo 7 the worst Sony game ever

protonv5 said:

I hear all you guys talking about regulations. Oh boy. Don't worry. The regulations are coming. And they will regulate YOU. A free system is always the best. If you want it. Buy it. Don't want it? Don't buy it. Just look at iRacing. I think it's very predatory. Cars that you buy become legacy. Sure, they're still yours, you just can't hardly use them for anything. You have to buy the newer version. Then each series has staggard tracks schedules. You can run this series, but not that series. And that's this week, but not next week. Want to race regularly? iRacing has arranged it so that you must buy EVERYTHING if you want to race different classes every week. Hate that? Then don't subscribe. Stop asking for regulations. Everyone's best bet is to vote with their wallet. A product lives or dies by the demand for it. Regulations? NO. Certain people in the world love regulations. And they will be the ones to regulate us all.

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The "vote with the wallet" mantra has been proven to be a utopia.

If it wasn't for regulations, you could only have windows, and internet explorer in any computer today. So historically, regulations were deemed very much necessary to reel in corporate greed.

I have refund mine to amazon and got my 100 euro back

GT simulates the "you can't afford your dream car" aspect of life.

Richard Wilks said:

The "vote with the wallet" mantra has been proven to be a utopia.

If it wasn't for regulations, you could only have windows, and internet explorer in any computer today. So historically, regulations were deemed very much necessary to reel in corporate greed.

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I'm afraid you don't understand this topic. If it weren't for de-regulation on the trucking industry and airline industry we'd be paying hundred's of dollars more for everything. A short flight would be unaffordable. An Amazon order would be $100 minimum for shipping. The price ALWAYS comes back to the consumer. It gets passed on. Want to regulate the gaming industry? Go ahead. Games will be $200 each. Try to force corporations to do anything and they will make it up another way.

protonv5 said:

I'm afraid you don't understand this topic. If it weren't for de-regulation on the trucking industry and airline industry we'd be paying hundred's of dollars more for everything. A short flight would be unaffordable. An Amazon order would be $100 minimum for shipping. The price ALWAYS comes back to the consumer. It gets passed on. Want to regulate the gaming industry? Go ahead. Games will be $200 each. Try to force corporations to do anything and they will make it up another way.

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I am afraid YOU are the one who doesn't understand this topic.

If it wasnt for regulations, you and your children would be sleeping in a factory shop floor, just like in the XIX century.

I dont remember myself paying for any webbrowser lately, despite Microsoft being dragged kicking and screaming after trying to block any competition to IE in the 90s.

EDIT: and oh, very good example there with Amazon, a company involved in controversy for treating their employes in third world style.

Richard Wilks said:

I am afraid YOU are the one who doesn't understand this topic.

If it wasnt for regulations, you and your children would be sleeping in a factory shop floor, just like in the XIX century.

I dont remember myself paying for any webbrowser lately, despite Microsoft being dragged kicking and screaming after trying to block any competition to IE in the 90s.

EDIT: and oh, very good example there with Amazon, a company involved in controversy for treating their employes in third world style.

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Lol. I understand it perfectly. You're talking about regulations that already exist. And I get that. Some are good. We have that already. You're talking about what a company is allowed to do with pricing etc. That's what you don't understand. If you do that, they will just raise the price. Lol. YOU'LL wind up paying for it anyway. They'll just pass it on to you. I can promise you. Companies are not going to let their bottom line get messed with. They'll just raise the price. But whatever. Scream about it. Like I said. Gamers are their own worst enemy.

protonv5 said:

Lol. I understand it perfectly. You're talking about regulations that already exist. And I get that. Some are good. We have that already. You're talking about what a company is allowed to do with pricing etc. That's what you don't understand. If you do that, they will just raise the price. Lol. YOU'LL wind up paying for it anyway. They'll just pass it on to you. But whatever. Scream about it. Like I said. Gamers are their own worst enemy.

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So we should just legalize loot boxes, microtransactions, pay to play, and outright gambling in videogames? You do realize that like someone posted above, children play these too right? Even gambling is highly regulated, you do know this right?

Nobody talked about price fixing. If they want to charge more for the games, they are free to do so. You can always vote with your wallet, if they get too expensive, like you just said, right?...

What videogame studios do these days, would be considering scamming costumers, in almost any other industry.

Richard Wilks said:

Now again, one can say "well don't buy it". And yes, i agree, but still its easy to fool enough people with empty promises and shiny roadmaps that lead to nowhere, while the genre drags on from patch to patch.

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This is a good point. Regardless of all the other stuff around regulation, peoples' buying behaviour does not help things. Please, everyone: don't buy a game for what it might be with more work or what devs say it will be but buy it purely for what it offers here and now.

To get back to the point of this thread, though, I think the main thing that's driven such anger at GT7 recently is a feeling of "bait and switch". Even my suggestion for purchasing behaviour wouldn't have helped now-angry buyers. People bought GT7 in one state, and even if you steered clear of hype and bought the game purely based on what you could see of the gameplay experience, it's since been updated to make that experience less enjoyable without micro-transactions. And then the whole game goes "down" without the ability to play for a long period.

This opens up other cans of worms: "always online" single player and "alive" games that are constantly being tweaked and updated. Is this what we want? Compared to years ago, where you bought a game on CD and (other than bugfixes) it was what it was? And single player always worked, regardless? While I recognize it isn't without tradeoffs, I kinda prefer the old model.

Richard Wilks said:

What happens if you go buy a washing machine, and the thing doesnt work as advertised? You go and ask the company whats up with that, and they tell you that maybe in 6 months they will have the advertised drying function out. Then when it comes out, you find out that it is bugged, and you wait a further 2 months.

Does this sound like something reasonable, or doesnt the law allow you to return the thing at any point for a refund no questions asked, or even for the brand risking being hit with lawsuits, and having a tap on the shoulder from the authorities for basically scamming their clients?

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I wouldn't buy a new model of washing machine right when it comes out. I'd buy a model that's been on the market for some time. Same with games. Nobody forces you to buy a game on release. Inform yourself in advance about the features it has and how it runs for other people. If you're that worried, wait out the dev cycle and check it when it's no longer being developed. If it meets your expectations then, all is well. Else, don't buy it at all.

If I buy a game early I do it in the full knowledge that things may be missing or not working. I take a risk consciously. Instead you buy first chance you get and then have a cry on the internet about unfinished games.

This says it all!

Richard Wilks said:

What happens if you go buy a washing machine, and the thing doesnt work as advertised? You go and ask the company whats up with that, and they tell you that maybe in 6 months they will have the advertised drying function out. Then when it comes out, you find out that it is bugged, and you wait a further 2 months.

Does this sound like something reasonable, or doesnt the law allow you to return the thing at any point for a refund no questions asked, or even for the brand risking being hit with lawsuits, and having a tap on the shoulder from the authorities for basically scamming their clients?

I find amazing that in things that are actually much harder to get right, people are all up in arms, but with this, the studios get a free pass to scam clients as much as they want. Of course, their victim culture and passive agressive threats (oh we are just a poor dev, if you dont help us you dont get any game at all) is much to blame here, but again, thats why most consumer products have laws guiding whats acceptable and whats not.

Sure gaming is an "entertainment" industry, but unlike cinema, you are promised specific things and features, just like a physical product.

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I think you can try a game and if you don't like it, you can get your money back. They also typically have demos you can evaluate.

Gevatter said:

I wouldn't buy a new model of washing machine right when it comes out. I'd buy a model that's been on the market for some time. Same with games. Nobody forces you to buy a game on release. Inform yourself in advance about the features it has and how it runs for other people. If you're that worried, wait out the dev cycle and check it when it's no longer being developed. If it meets your expectations then, all is well. Else, don't buy it at all.

If I buy a game early I do it in the full knowledge that things may be missing or not working. I take a risk consciously. Instead you buy first chance you get and then have a cry on the internet about unfinished games.

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You are wrong if you think i am "crying about unfinished games" i own.

Maybe you live under a rock, but the games industry is scandal after scandal, letdown after letdown. I am not worried about my wallet, i am worried about not having any good game to play soon enough, because all of them are an unfinished mess FOREVER.

I also think you are on the wrong thread, because this is all about GT7 getting appaling reviews and being yet another letdown from the industry.

Richard Wilks said:

I also think you are on the wrong thread, because this is all about GT7 getting appaling reviews and being yet another letdown from the industry.

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GT7 deserves all the hate it's getting. I was initially reacting to you wanting to regulate how games can be released, which is an idea I like in principle, but which isn't practical in the real world because small studios need cashflow. If Reiza had to work on AMS2 for 4-5 years before they can make money off of it, there wouldn't be an AMS2.

And then you started talking about washing machines.

I don't care about GT7 specifically, but it's the lesson I'm trying to communicate. Don't buy at release (and don't ever preorder), instead give it some time to read up on other peoples comments to see what the main issues are. Regulations are fine, but you still need to be an informed consumer.

And go independent if you want creative games instead of the same shlock every year.

Gevatter said:

GT7 deserves all the hate it's getting. I was initially reacting to you wanting to regulate how games can be released, which is an idea I like in principle, but which isn't practical in the real world because small studios need cashflow. If Reiza had to work on AMS2 for 4-5 years before they can make money off of it, there wouldn't be an AMS2.

And then you started talking about washing machines.

I don't care about GT7 specifically, but it's the lesson I'm trying to communicate. Don't buy at release (and don't ever preorder), instead give it some time to read up on other peoples comments to see what the main issues are. Regulations are fine, but you still need to be an informed consumer.

And go independent if you want creative games instead of the same shlock every year.

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Well Maybe AMS2 shouldnt really exist now should it? It has been hardly a "game" for most of it's existence, ridled with bugs and promises of content and fixes that take forever to show up.

If i follow your own advice, i should actually never buy it, so i can only justify it's existance to pay Renato his dream of being a "simdev", at the expense of people who already payed up front, and are now sitting around for YEARS, waiting that either the content they want shows up, or the bugs get fixed.

I am sure the "cashflow" excuse would be a dream for any other industry, but i am sorry, the game industry is exactly that, an INDUSTRY, and as such, it must have rules like anything else. This is not charity, but of course, i am starting to think that the gaming community actually enjoys bad games, because we have already years of back catalog of absolute useless pieces of software for anything else but some quick solo laps, and yet, people say we live a "golden age" of the genre...

And no, i didnt buy AMS2, but why should GT7 get any more or less a pass? Because Reiza are "little guys"? Well they charge even more!... (i just single out reiza because you did so, it can be any other dev as an example).

Cheesenium said:

Not even surprised at this stage. GT7 made iRacing look cheap and they really made me want to start iRacing instead of buying a PS for GT7.

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I haven't even bought a PS5, still using my PS4 Pro. I will say that besides buying the game I haven't come out of pocket for anything. Just like all the previous GT editions I won't ever pay real money for a car that is virtual, especially to the tune of $12 million and up, makes absolutely no sense. I do enjoy the game though, and basically it is what it is. There are much more important things going on in life and it's only a video game, so there are two choices. Play it or play something else.

I will stick to my Playstation 2.

protonv5 said:

And on and on. Yet no one is required to buy anything. I'm amazed (not really) at all the complaining. No one is making anyone buy anything. You can grind, or buy if you want to. If ACC did the same thing, everyone would justify it. I've heard guys say about the upcoming DLC "Take my money! I will buy the DLC twice!" Whoo hoo. This is review-bombing at it's best. Nothing more.

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So true. No one's arm is being twisted. The good thing about sim racing is there are choices, and you can choose among the plethora of racing games available. All of the complaining is quite baffling.

Vols70slpr said:

I haven't even bought a PS5, still using my PS4 Pro. I will say that besides buying the game I haven't come out of pocket for anything. Just like all the previous GT editions I won't ever pay real money for a car that is virtual, especially to the tune of $12 million and up, makes absolutely no sense. I do enjoy the game though, and basically it is what it is. There are much more important things going on in life and it's only a video game, so there are two choices. Play it or play something else.

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Do you even understand what personal choice means? Let's do a dishwasher analogy about your stance on this. You want to buy a dishwasher. It has an always online requirement. Fine you think. It washes the dishes, it has 700 different programs and it is fun to use. It also comes with dishwashing brush for whatever reason. The reviews are good. You buy it based on this information.

Then you turn it on. Turns out that washing dishes costs 2 dollars each time. Fine, "you have the choice" to grind and wash your dishes using the brush. If you wash the dishes 10 times with that brush they even give you one "free" dish washing. So in your mind "there are much more important things going on in life and it's only a dish washer, so there are two choices. Use it or do buy different washing machine.". Use that power of personal choice to not use product you bought based on misleading information and buy another one hoping they lie you less.

This is not just games anymore. There is dire need for regulation before this spreads everywhere. More and more things are become into computers. Tesla is already disabling accessories in your car if you sell it someone else. More and more things need an app or cloud and software updates. Things can literally change at no notice and you may lose hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of equipment because the online part says no. It just should not be legal to have that happen. Imagine if your electrical company decided to add microtransactions? Lol, just use your personal choice and don't use electricity. Steam is where is at!

I don't even think microtransactions on gt7 is even wrong. Sure it is bad to have a game made worse with it but a developer has the right make to bad choices if it makes them more money. Or less money. But misleading the reviewers and downgrading the product after release and doing so intentionally is just false advertising and should be illegal. The legal requirement I just came up with for any online services should clearly state in its marketing if the game has additional fees, microtransactions and experience can change based on this. There should also be some text about how existing users are treated if such fees or mx are added later. Or like I how I'd call it. Basic level honesty.

All these talks about regulations, people seem to forget that GT7 is a result of Polyphony trying to "regulate" what people can or cannot do with their product, and here we are. And if we talk about a market-wide regulation, who do you think will be doing the regulating? Do you think those doing the regulating has no personal interests?

Let's face it, trying to compare regulating human rights treatment VS trying to regulate a hobby isn't the same thing at all. One is a necessity. Why do you push for regulations? Do you have no critical thinking abilities to make your own purchase decisions? You know you didn't have to buy ACC when it was still in beta stage right?

Sim-racing is a niche hobby that is on the rise, I am sure we will be seeing more and more options in the future and that is where the beauty of the free market comes in. You can choose to buy only good products and developers can choose to either make good or bad products. And if some of us want to support a start-up like Reiza, and decide to watch them slowly build their game up then that is also fine. Because guess what, making sim-racing titles aren't cheap. They are in fact at times more expensive than triple A videogames. The programmers with the abilities you need for a physics engine to simulate proper car behavior is on a higher paygrade. Then people demand for laser-scannned tracks and licensed cars. If there was a strict regulation, maybe Reiza and Kunos might not have existed. Those of us who bought AC1 from the start surely remember how barebones the game was on release.

It's all very simple really. If developers make a bad product people have no confidence in, a regulatory body doesn't need to exist for them to get the punishments they deserve. People can simply choose to buy something else. If a developer releases a good product that needs some more work and attention, then you are free to vote with your wallet if you want to put your confidence in them to deliver all the way.

Regulations like the previous posters described will only benefit big companies that can hire enough people to push a product out in the shortest amount of time while keeping tons of people on the pay-roll. BUT more often than not, these big companies have boards breathing down their neck to release products that look good but has no real substance (looking at project cars and Forza). Which is why we had to rely on studios like Kunos back then to release something that we all wanted, which was good physics before licensed contents.

Went on a rant but erased it,nothing we say will change the state of the gaming industry anyway.

Then,the customer comes first.
Now,the customer comes last.

The smart preying on the gullible.