PC1 Project Cars - What's the point if....

Is Project Cars dead? Why is it possible to read about it but not possible to buy or try it?
Seems a bit pointless if it has just turned into an exclusive club for those who already have it.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I cannot see any link to download, try, or buy; and the forums are not taking new registrations. This does not seem like a very good way of keeping the project alive :(
 
That is exactly where some people (including me) draw a line.

You see "putting oneself out there for the sake of debate" as totally different from the "innocent that never stirs the pot" - that is a failed and very serious take on civil coexistence between people with different ideas. So what if people put themselves out there for debate? What is wrong in saying that pCARS or some other sim is not to one's liking? Why does this have to elicit ganging up on someone? Why does criticism make you or me "expect less than positive replies"? I find that puzzling.

Well, you see one situation at Eurogamer forums. Multiply that by a 100 and you'll get the type of occurrences we've experienced at NG just because people dislike SMS or pCARS.



Not too long ago, someone right here fetched information from WMD forums (private to the outside world) just to throw at someone who disagrees with the guy on pCARS. Not only that, he made less than noble considerations about that other member's driving abilities and exposed some "facts" for others to see.

Unacceptable behaviour. In both cases.

Well I can see that we can agree that with some of this we disagree. I did not post to get into it with anybody but just expressing how I feel that dragging an innocent victim from a possibly not the best thought out article of what all exactly was included through the mud and then dragging his family into the mix is pretty classless and out of line IMO. This exceeds the typical jabber that we see in 100% of the forums we have today.

That is why I call this person a special kind of troll.



You get into a debate with us "guys" and you can "usually forget it and move on", and that guy is a "special kind of troll".

Birddogg, I have to agree with other guys, this post of yours "expects less than positive replies", but...lets move on.
 

mapu13

@Simberia
As James May would say. "cock". :rolleyes:

wasn't it more like "cockerydoo"

tier_vogel09.jpg


opps... :speechless:
 

Andy_J

I hate Race cheats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
God, I hope Pcars is a complete disaster sales wise. Their INVESTORS just make me sick. They are certainly not in it for the Sim potential. Purely for the money or potential profit. I have never hoped a game development would fail so much. Some of their investors are the worst examples of human beings. People of no morals. Jeez, most of them just want a return and to hell with a great sim.

Shift 3 (Pcars) will never be a great sim, despite what they claim. A money spinner maybe, but a sim, nah. :rolleyes:
 
Have you guys checked the pCARS thread at GTPlanet? It's already over 163 pages...and that in a GT fansite, populated by (as the other "fella" said), "cautious people". Seemingly, a lot of interest generated by pCARS right on the competitor's turf. That is precisely what the INVESTORS are betting on, sales figures right on the heels of GT5.
 
I play quite a few different titles and I like the most of them for one reason or another. I guess it's mood driven as to what I play at a certain time. So this being said really says I have no problem with the hardcore sim or those people leaning that way or the arcade racer and the people who lean toward that. I do however separate what is good and what is bad and IMO I think pCARS is pretty darn good. Is it something everyone will want or be happy with? No none of them are.
My take on it right now is that the fact some cars have had more work on them than others makes a difference. Some I think are really good and some are in more of a WIP state. FFB varies from car to car and FTMP I like it pretty well. One thing is the concept the fact we do get cars in WIP state when we are use to getting finished cars. Makes a difference IMO. An example of the variety and levels of how one might rate the different content available. Let's say you like rFactor and you install mods and there are some cars you like better than others but overall are quite happy with the game as a whole. I think this is where I am at with any game really. None of what I play is totally bad but none of them are the end all best sim either.
Everyone is entitled to their own tastes. The fact I play a lot of different stuff says I am not on one side or the other just I see myself as being open to the different titles offered and while I like all of the ones David listed I also like pCARS very much as well and yes I do call WMD my home forum.
 
Birddogg66
I agree with your point about appreciating what different titles have to offer. I also play many different Sims and even enjoy the occasional romp in Dirt2/3 just for fun. I hope that Pcars does end up being great in the physics dept. and there are a couple of cars that I enjoy driving at this point so I think others will get there too.
 
@ Birddogg66,

like you, there are times when I'm more inclined towards some titles than others. Maybe, in my case, that has to do with constantly experimenting things on a variety of sims, checking how things work and why they work that way.

I have, however, no inclination for arcade racing titles. That was basically over the minute I tried GPL (a friend recently reminded me when we realized how revolutionary it was) and complex flight sims such as F4, Mig Alley or Jane's F/A-18. These are all games, for sure, but they're first and foremost simulations and that is what attracts lots of people to them. So, if flight sims or racing sims fail on the basics, I stop having interest in them. People like them, fine, there is actually no need to say their games "suck" or are a load of crap.

One thing I can't stand though is people cleverly transforming this or that title into simulations when they're clearly not it. So, they usually do it in two ways: attacking the weak points in other simulations which have earned a lot of respect; and finally, they twist the meaning of the word "simulation" to suit their "interests".

Other than that, tastes are tastes, as people are people. Different people have different opinions or feelings about a particular racing title and that is fine.

Just like real life racing. I know people for whom ALMS is the one series they watch races of, whereas others settle for nothing except GRAND-AM and V8SC. I for one like them all, so right in the middle it is a bit funny how some discussions come about for no reason...

pCARS:

haven't tried it in a while, therefore cannot and will not comment on its current status. I do visit WMD from time to time, as posts from AJ or Ben are always a great read. I do say one thing though: the same friends (hardcore nutters, professional engineers and science oriented people) that told me several months ago that some of the changes in pCARS were "impressive" are now quite unimpressed in what counts for them (Forza has good graphics, GT5 has fantastic graphics and sounds, Shift Unleashed has great graphics - but physics? Not the strongest point of these titles).
 
@ Birddogg66,

pCARS:

haven't tried it in a while, therefore cannot and will not comment on its current status. I do visit WMD from time to time, as posts from AJ or Ben are always a great read. I do say one thing though: the same friends (hardcore nutters, professional engineers and science oriented people) that told me several months ago that some of the changes in pCARS were "impressive" are now quite unimpressed in what counts for them (Forza has good graphics, GT5 has fantastic graphics and sounds, Shift Unleashed has great graphics - but physics? Not the strongest point of these titles).

Well a while back in pCARS the throttle inputs were very sensitive. Maybe a little too much so it was scaled back and IMO too much the other way. I posted this and included some of the burnouts I could do from a standstill in other titles as an example. Ben also mentioned the lack of accurate throttle response. The team mentioned that changes would be made and we are starting to see those changes now. So if you look at it in a sense that not all elements are in place and may not be until just before release these things may be looked at in a different light. IMO is it a Sim? Sure! is it exactly like the hardcore sims out their that most of us enjoy now? No.
Do I think the differences may end up like those that were with GTR2 and rF1 yes I do. Both were Sim I felt rF1 is more hardcore but both are really good. Difference rFactor did not win a game of the year award GTR2 did. Can we give ISI a bit of credit for that GOY award? Yes Ian and his guys could not have done it at that point in time without ISI technologies.
I really think what we are finding with pCARS and the approach and we all know this to be true. The fact that many great pro drivers getting on these hardcore sims and needing to scale them back a bit by use of assists to get a closer feel to what they experience in real life. ISI will even tell you that if the car has them in RL that they are meant to be used in sim to replicate RL.
What we as serious sim racers have done is choose to not use them at all costs so we have created a scenario in our minds that this is how it is. I do like the fact that ISI physics are more raw on the hardest levels but also understand that they may not totally represent True to Life experience. This is what I feel SMS is trying to accomplish levels that more closely represent TTL experiences. Is it perfect yet? No it is still WIP and as such we get that has become dreaded pre-alpha tag to it.
This at least allows me to think SMS deserves the time needed to allow their software to evolve into what it will be at release.
 

mapu13

@Simberia
"hardcore sim" What's that?

Can somebody please give me a true definition of this over-extensively used term/concept?

I never heard of this before - only since lately when this silly fight between the arcade games, racing games and racing simulations came up because all these genres got thrown into one big pot and nobody can or wants to separate each genre anymore!

Seriously, every time I hear such kind of shoptalk (from simcade, hardcore sim, realcore sim and more funky stuff) I could tear my hair out!

Either it is a racing simulator, and as such it has to meet requirements which have been set, or it is not!
 
So if you look at it in a sense that not all elements are in place and may not be until just before release these things may be looked at in a different light. IMO is it a Sim? Sure! is it exactly like the hardcore sims out their that most of us enjoy now? No.

I agree. I for one only expect pCARS to have a "sim character" upon release.

I can understand though that some people feel disappointed by what they have at the moment.

I felt rF1 is more hardcore but both are really good. Difference rFactor did not win a game of the year award GTR2 did.

Both (rF and GTR2) share the same game engine, both run at 400 Hz (quite good). The differences are in the fact that GTR2 comes from an early ISIMotor2 version, whereas rFactor benefited from further updates (all the way to 1.255).

They're the same - except for the flexibility and later variables added by ISI.

Game wise - well, it depends, some people care little about the versatility of rFactor or its accurate modelling, but they do care about racing licenses and graphics and probably a boat load of cars, In that respect, rFactor lags behind GTR2 and other titles.

But all of them (GTR2, rFactor, Race07) are much, much better than people know or realize.


I really think what we are finding with pCARS and the approach and we all know this to be true.

We shall see.

The fact that many great pro drivers getting on these hardcore sims and needing to scale them back a bit by use of assists to get a closer feel to what they experience in real life. ISI will even tell you that if the car has them in RL that they are meant to be used in sim to replicate RL.

Pro drivers complain about one major deficiency: lack of grip. Yes, there's the lack of seat of the pants feel, but that is a given, they know this and put this aside.

The lack of grip or estimation of grip issues have been the subject of several methods to correct it. I am thinking of Race07, for instance, a significant improvement over previous ISIMotor2 titles.

What (some) pro drivers do is use TC in order to get closer to their RL experience. But, imo, devs do not need to scale back the physics engine but apply/implement a system of driver aids.

What we as serious sim racers have done is choose to not use them at all costs so we have created a scenario in our minds that this is how it is. I do like the fact that ISI physics are more raw on the hardest levels but also understand that they may not totally represent True to Life experience. This is what I feel SMS is trying to accomplish levels that more closely represent TTL experiences.

I disagree. Some championships do not allow driver aids; some allow them if the production car has them. Gaining the ability to control a car without driver aids is a good challenge and may not be that far removed from RL.

But as you say, SMS (in spite of the terrible behaviour of some WMD members) deserve the benefit of the doubt up until release.

"hardcore sim" What's that?

Can somebody please give me a true definition of this over-extensively used term/concept?

I never heard of this before - only since lately when this silly fight between the arcade games, racing games and racing simulations came up because all these genres got thrown into one big pot and nobody can or wants to separate each genre anymore!

Seriously, every time I hear such kind of shoptalk (from simcade, hardcore sim, realcore sim and more funky stuff) I could tear my hair out!

Either it is a racing simulator, and as such it has to meet requirements which have been set, or it is not!

Mapu, "hardcore simming" (as we used call it over at simhq 10 years ago) refers to being as close to the real experience as possible. If a car, in RL, doesn't have assists, then a hardcord simracer will not use driver assists. Furthermore, it has become common of hardcore racing to "race" with cockpit views.

Which is a different thing from "realistic physics", which some try to peg on modders and those that enjoy good simulations.
 
I'll agree that my quote of scaling back may not be all that accurate because it is not seen as such by the dev team but seen as more accurate tire data as well as other things. It is us the community that might see it as scaled back in comparison to some others.
 
That is precisely what I was saying: that the use of driver assists is somehow seen as scaling back the physics engine, when it is not. To be fair, though, some developers promote that view, sadly.

One develops a physics engine from the ground up. Then, driver assists are put in place in order to allow people with different abilities to enjoy the "gameplay". As simple as this - at least, on the surface. Code and architecture level, things are a lot more complex than this (I have seen forces and energy compromised due to TC code, for instance), but the essence of it is this.

I for one have no problem if a developer produces a racing game filled with driver assists - as long as we can turn them off (and as long as the behaviour of cars mimics RL cars with these systems off).
 
One thing that stuck out in your earlier post was your good words for the Race 07 series.(I love it personally) I thought Simbin did a great job with FFB and the fact that once you start to power slide from hard throttle input the car starts to correct it self quickly when you lift. That's the type of experience I get in RL. Some of these same examples are things I have posted @WMD early on and I think is coming along well. One car I had not driven in a While is the pCARS Ford Capri. The car is an excellent sim car and the FFB is great. One of the effects that with some of the cars that stands out quite well is the lockup and slide of the front tires. During these incidents the wheel on my CSW almost rips out of my hand. During regular action the wheel has a nice rolling effect as where FFB is concerned,. I think SMS has done a great job in this area as compared to what we had early on. Since you seem to still be active go give it a few laps
@ Andy Jackson I never had any type of problem with you while you were still part of the community so to group everyone in the community into one is not being very fair to all individuals involved.
 
One thing that stuck out in your earlier post was your good words for the Race 07 series.(I love it personally) I thought Simbin did a great job with FFB and the fact that once you start to power slide from hard throttle input the car starts to correct it self quickly when you lift. That's the type of experience I get in RL.

Yeah, my thinking exactly. Popular "opinion" has it that RACE07 has poor physics and is inferior to GTR2 or rFactor. There is no point in trying to hammer down that this "opinion" is based on false assumptions or pure ignorance.

Suffice to say...eh, a group I met a couple of years ago presented a set of simulations installed in a motion simulator platform computer to their associates (professional drivers). The motion platform computer had several sims, some not "commercially available", and others we all know (LFS, GTR2, rFactor, Race07 and iRacing - NKP was not installed at the time, but the drivers knew the sim well). The one sim that was rated very high across the board was Race07 (and its expansion pack, GTRE), and this with default files. With extensive modding, GTR2 (GTR2 Reborn) and rFactor (Supra and the Corvette by Niels, and an adaptation - back then - of GTR2 Reborn) became "alive" or "life like" too.

No sim is without its problems. We all gotta find that One Sim that satisfies us on all counts.


Some of these same examples are things I have posted @WMD early on and I think is coming along well. One car I had not driven in a While is the pCARS Ford Capri. The car is an excellent sim car and the FFB is great. One of the effects that with some of the cars that stands out quite well is the lockup and slide of the front tires.

That does sound exciting. Braking, almost on the verge of locking, and being able to turn at the same time - in my opinion, that alone is quite telling of the status of the physics engine (tire physics in particular). If on top of all this, FFB is properly capturing and representing the forces and input, bingo!

Since you seem to still be active go give it a few laps

Thanks.

Problem is: my rig isn't up to the requirements of pCARS. Last time I tried, performance was awful. I'm one of those that will have to settle for the complete product, and only after building a new rig.
 

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