2012 Formula One Brazilian Grand Prix

[Dmitry Zaharov]

Flags are counting! These crazy spanish fans found another one (watch from 11:40, look at the dashboard)

 

[David Garcia]

Not sure about this one... (this is the one Sky Sports reported (not a crazy spanish fan as you mention, it was Allan McNish (Yeah, maybe he has family in Spain somehow )))... and I am not sure if it was a sliding surface signal. The leds on Vettel´s steering are not on, and the light is not flashing... what a mess.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

To clear something up, regarding the Vergne overtake.

Ok, before I start, I’m a Flag Marshal here in NZ.

The way that the Floppy Marker system works, is that say you have a sector on a straight. Flag Point 1, and Flag Point 2. Now, approximately half way between these points will be a Floppy Marker (It changes depending on the location of the flag points and Line of Sight etc.) If there is an incident between FP1 and FP2 that demands a Yellow Flag from FP1 and it is BEFORE the Floppy Marker, then the cars may overtake from the Floppy Marker onwards provided there is a Green Flag at FP2. If the Incident for the Yellow Flag is AFTER the Floppy Marker, then the cars may not overtake until the pass FP2.

Given that not only Vettel passes Toro Rosso AFTER the Floppy Marker between FP4 and FP5, I would call that pass 100% legal. You could also call into question the validity of the Yellow Flag at FP4, but that’s down to the lights operator down at FP4 and they may have been told to put the Yellow light on by Race Control or someone else.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[Dmitry Zaharov]

Not sure about this one... (this is the one Sky Sports reported (not a crazy spanish fan as you mention, it was Allan McNish (Yeah, maybe he has family in Spain somehow )))... and I am not sure if it was a sliding surface signal. The leds on Vettel´s steering are not on, and the light is not flashing... what a mess.

No, not that one. In 11:40 Vettel passes Di Resta with DRS and lights are on. Still I can't see yellow flags at all in this section which confuses me even more.

 

[David Garcia]

To clear something up, regarding the Vergne overtake.

I have three friends that are race marshalls in Valencia as for F1 as for MotoGP and all have told me that the yellow is on untill you pass the next green flag. As you see in the video the move is done before where the green flag is shown. And the leds on Vettel´s steering regarding the flags, are ON.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Yep i've watched it and you check this out
http://www.gophoto.it/view.php?i=http://i.minus.com/ifCeF4LzTDLqY.gif#.ULWgIuRtjgw
You can see a Person waving Green flag at the Post and then He made the pass or STR. So it was Legal also in F1

I actually can't tell if I see anything there, but the lights on his dashboard clearly showing yellow flag conditions.

fanatic forum people are saying due to confusion he handed the Place back to vergne and overtook again
Here is the Link for that
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f...lag-overtakes/?topic_page=2&num=15#post-80921

That doesn't matter. It's not about gaining illegaly a place like in Germany, it's about overtaking in a yellow flag zone, which ask a driver to reduce speed, don't overtake and be prepared for debris and marshalls on and at the side of the track. This is due to the driver's and marshall's saftey.

 

[Metalfreaky]

To clear something up, regarding the Vergne overtake.

I don't think this clears anything up. I'm rather getting more confused
I'm watching more than 10 years of F1 and I've never heard anything diffrent to: yellow flag zone from the point you pass the yellow flag untill you pass the point of the green flag.

 

[Sérgio Marques]

...all have told me that the yellow is on untill you pass the next green flag.

I always see it like that in every motorsport races.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I have three friends that are race marshalls in Valencia as for F1 as for MotoGP and all have told me that the yellow is on untill you pass the next green flag. As you see in the video the move is done before where the green flag is shown. And the leds on Vettel´s steering regarding the flags, are ON.

Ok but think about this.

Vettel passing Kobayashi. Everyone screamed illegal. Turned out to be perfectly legal.
Vettel passing HRT, same deal, and again, same deal.

Do you not think that FIA would notice this? Seeing as you have been wrong twice before.

By you i mean everyone thinking the passes were illegal.
I´m sure we are missing something.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Rule change for 2013: No more automatic marshaling system but old fashioned humans with flags in their hands.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Ferrari, if they wanted, can appeal, Vettel isn´t the champ yet.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Ok but think about this.

Vettel passing Kobayashi. Everyone screamed illegal. Turned out to be perfectly legal.

That was (at least in my case) because of the constant yellow light signals. That's the first time I have heard that those are equal to the yellow/red striped flag

We have 3 cases here. Two of them are solved, but we are still searching for explanation for the 3rd one with the TR.
Maybe we will find explanation for it and maybe not.

 

[Ketnix]

Odd thing is I havn't seen anyone from Ferrari other than Pat Fry talking about it, and he seemed confident that Ferrari wouldn't go through an appeal.

 

[David Garcia]

Ok but think about this.

Vettel passing Kobayashi. Everyone screamed illegal. Turned out to be perfectly legal.
Vettel passing HRT, same deal, and again, same deal.

Do you not think that FIA would notice this? Seeing as you have been wrong twice before.

By you i mean everyone thinking the passes were illegal.
I´m sure we are missing something.

Yeah I know you are not refeering to me in particular Hampus, but in Vergne´s overtaking, yellow is on, It is clear. And not to mention Vergne droping 20 seconds from Vettel and Schumacher under Safety car... it is really ashaming stuff and to me sounds as team to team orders. Maybe I am missing something, but it looks really ugly from my perspective.

Chech the results please. Is it normal to you that Vergne drops that ar and comes so far behind under Safety Car conditions? http://www1.skysports.com/formula1/grandprix/brazil/results

Bram Hengeveld: At least there will be some people working there...

...but we are still searching for explanation for the 3rd one with the TR.
Maybe we will find explanation for it and maybe not.

The explanation is that the Toro Rosso had clearo orders of letting Vettel pass as soon as possible during the whole race, and Vettel knew that... so at that point nobody realized it was a yellow flag period.

 

[Metalfreaky]

About the SC thing with Vergne:
Was he already lined up behind the saftey car and than dropping back or was he at another part of the track when SC was deployed and slowly closing in because of the delta time.
Would be nice to see the gaps evolving from lap to lap.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

David Garcia Could you please give us a legit source that Vergne really had an order to leave a 20sec gap? Because atm it all sounds like your own opinion by just looking at the results.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I see what you are saying with Vergne there. however if that really was the case, and red bull really wanted Vergne to go back. then why F it up?
He´s got a delta and could easily made it 25s or similar.

regarding lights in the car. They are linked to the automatic system.
Flag men overrule automatic system.

Pat Fry and FIA have looked at it and since there´s no filed complaint we can only assume we are missing something.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Where did you get the bit about Vergne and team radio?
If you say spanish media as the answer to that i´ll end the discussion here

 

[David Garcia]

Well, when the safety car was deployed after the Force India crash he was just 7 or 8 seconds behind Mikael Schumacher and Vettel... in the GPS it was clear he dropped back. A team order or not? I can´t find a better reason.

In next video of the final laps, in the second 38 you can see the distance bewteen Vergne and Schumacher was around 8 seconds and 40 seconds later the Safety car is deployed.

Again in the video 1.26, under the Safety Car signal the marshal is showing you can see Vergne distance with MSC is of 10 seconds... from there onwards the group was supposed to become more compact and being that close, Vergne should have caught Schumacher in one corner lapping now in Safety Car speedm but it is curious that the distance increase up to around 20 seconds.

Now everybody can do their own conclusions, but for me it is clear.

Where did you get the bit about Vergne and team radio?
If you say spanish media as the answer to that i´ll end the discussion here

I find quite offensive you always think an opinion is biased because who or from where is the person posting it Hampus.

Noody in Spanish press realized that, not a single word. That is what I think about it becauise to me it is just weird somebody that is 10 seconds behind the car ahead drops 10 seconds more under Safety Car conditions, the only reason I find is that somebody asked him to drop back.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Ok do you have any source for the Vergne radio discussion?

Remember that race was over during Safety Car period, there´s no need to bunch up because they all will pass the finish line under safety car anyways.

the reason i´m saying spanish media is because i´ve heard from another forum user that he too might have heard something that originated from Spanish Media.

If the roles were reversed, i would not trust german media.