What i think is not right with RRes physics?!

[Msportdan]

FINAL UPDATE!
hhhhmmmmmmm so i gave the DTMs on RF2 a try last night and just fell for them, so nice to drive feels natural nice FFB and weight in wheel.

Go ahead and i put RRe and it just feels wrong, (even with my new settings) the middle of the wheel feel loose/light and has no ffb. Its horrid.. Unless you have the wheel turned its just poor. Only way i can really cure this is turn up steering force, then i start getting the "auto" bloody straighten wheel assist or whatever it is. (possibly too much forcing the other way)

I have come to the conclusion (as apart from buying a new wheel) that this is a great game etc, but when played with another sim with better physics, you can notice it so much more. Its to a point its off putting.

Maybe a possibility of a minumum force setting? Well since not one dev has commented on it it must just be me, or im being ignored, it doesnt really matter as so many people think the FFB are bang on "ppffft" lol.

So for me there is STILL something that isnt quite right about RRe physics etc.... and until S3 fix this (floaty around the centre feel) ill stand by my OP, because ive given up searching for the "sweet spot"!
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ORIGINAL POST
I tried something on the way home in my car (f20 125i msport bmw rwd). Ive never really would say I practice sim driving on the road. I tried swerving left and right really quickly. Which is something ive been comparing in the sims im playing. I know this sounds silly, but I remember someone saying how good a set of physics are by, aggressively going left and right and see if the tyres slip (bite and slip ) as you get faster and more intense.

To my surprise (okay I wasn't do track speeds but its all relative) my cars was quite sharp on its front end, they front tyres felt connected to the road and there wasn't much roll in the car. (probs due to the msport suspension) only as I got faster did the tyres start to slip, but that is also 220bhp through the rear.

Anyway I got in and tried the Wttc bmw, which is a tad similar okay no where near but you know what I mean. To my dismay the race spec car felt horrid, it felt squishy on it front suspension felt quite numb up front, and felt like this was the road car.!! When you do the motion I was doing In my car you get a sort of a sway going, like a pendulum effect. THIS IS WHATS KILLING RRE FOR ME. many a times ive popped out of a slipstream and ive had this awrkward sway feeling. Sorry it feels wrong, You don't feel like your connected to the road the suspension doesn't feel responsive and confidence isn't gained this way.

So I tried another sim that im getting back into at the mo (excusing its dire AI) and that's AC. I popped into the BMW m3 (another similar car) and tried the old swerve down the Monza straight ... and there it was that felt like my car.. and it did. it felt responsive tyres dug and bit like a tyre under load, I could feel the suspension doing its work....and I wont lie it felt like I was driving my car, just a bit more of an expensive version lol.

obviously in both sims and in real life if I kept the throttle and swerving up I would end up in heading the other way. But in RRE its that transition between getting into the slide, and the feeling of that bite. The feeling of the front end on cars and suspension, just isn't felt imo in RRe. Okay setups could help, but it feels to far deep to fix purely by setups.

Look im not here to bash, its purely critism, that I think S3, if they wanted to could sort out and make this shine. You guys know im a backer of RRe..

 

[Le_Poilu]

I always though that a too much realistic sim will be much harder than real life.
Because of the lack of G force, body feeling& Cie.
In a sim you have to drive only with your eyes, your ears and the FFB of your wheel (for what it worth), it lacks a lot of things here.

And I don't thing a full motion simulator can reproduce all what you need for it...

There's a need for balance, so you can manage with the lack of driving information of the sims against real life driving.


PS: why Go Kart sims are so rare, hard and rarely fun ? because GoKart is almost 100% about body feeling.

 

[Emilio]

ADACs to me are quite challenging. Sure if you "drive normally" cars are easy to drive, but if you start pushing them they're gonna give you quite a few problems holding them on track. I use no TC and i found them Really freaking tricky to control, especially in the turns. They're not, imo, as easy as AC's GT3 where braking and turning are more controllable.
NIGHTMARISH DIFFICULTY doesn't mean realistic. Take DCS flight sims: to me a plane is far more complex than driving a car... go figure there's a bunch of ace players on YouTube playing it successfully and the game has OUTSTANDING physics.

 

[Le_Poilu]

They're not, imo, as easy as AC's GT3 where braking and turning are more controllable.

Carefull: GT3 in AC have ABS by default, it's a real life setup.
If you drive R3E in "geat real" you don't have ABS in ADAC GT master (should it be or not? I don't know the technical rules of GT master)

 

[Msportdan]

funny rubens says that game stock felt real to what he races.

err money fed quotations me thinks.

 

[Le_Poilu]

funny rubens says that game stock felt real to what he races.

Yes and Sebastien Loeb like Gran Turismo, Stephane Sarrazin and Franck Montagny (former Peugeot 908 drivers) feel Forza Motorsport like real... etc etc etc

Real driver stars quotes are hard to take while they are sponsored ...

 

[Msportdan]

at the end of the day and at the beginning of this thread i stated that i didnt like the sway i had in RRe and i have never felt this in a real car both road or track. so yes im taking a bit of imagination and guessing that, a real GT car wouldnt behave like this. IF you are in a slipstream and pull out to overtake you will experience this werid sway, almost boat like on the front end.

anyway ive said my opinion. you guys said yours.
lets agree to disagree yeah? i prefer gsc physics you guy prefers RRe and im okay with that

just to add this guy isnt sponsored and hes driven both track and car combo..i do take hiw word although as always with a pinch of salt.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

your real car doesnt have a psychotic level of camber front and back ; ill just add but yes we can disagree and as for paid quotes , the referance i have wasnt published or paid for it was internal feedback thats all

what ever happens no game is perfect each has there own approach and each isfun

ANdi

 

[Le_Poilu]

at the end of the day and at the beginning of this thread i stated that i didnt like the sway i had in RRe and i have never felt this in a real car both road or track. so yes im taking a bit of imagination and guessing that, a real GT car wouldnt behave like this. IF you are in a slipstream and pull out to overtake you will experience this werid sway, almost boat like on the front end.

I have to say that I don't get the sway issue you mention here.
I don't fell such thing while playing R3E...

i prefer gsc physics you guy prefers RRe and im okay with that

I did play a lot GCSe and for me it still one of the best driving experience I had, in regards of the FFB it give.
But as I know it's different from R3E, I will not say it's much better.
It's a matter of feeling.
In GSc I have to admit that I was purely unable to race properly the V8 stock car, for me it always finished in the sand, or into the wall.
With R3E I can drive at the edge and maintain the pace without the fear of missing the last corner of the last lap while racing in front.

 

[nounoubleu]

I sticked to DTM14 during 2 weeks and I really like it: Being fast, approaching the edge is really a sport. You must be precise but also violent (difficult to explain, I'm not naturally english speaker). Basically I feel I have some grip and aero.
I went back to ADAC this weekend and had feeling I was obliged to be very smooth, kind, gentle, etc. For instance braking: in a real racecar, you don't stroke the pedal, you bit it, really you bit it, and then you decrease the force gradually. In ADAC you must be very smooth on the pedal. No alternative way. (ok, maybe I should change my G27 to something else ). Actually it's like there is almost no aero.

I had opportunity to do some tests with cars like Porsche 996GT3R or Porsche 997 cup. It was almost 10 years ago but I assume modern racecars are more like DTM14 than ADAC. As far as I know new GT3 are even more forgiving, as long as you don't pass over the limit.
So, DTM14 physics are very good for me but ADAC GT can be improved.

 

[Le_Poilu]

In ADAC you must be very smooth on the pedal. No alternative way. (ok, maybe I should change my G27 to something else ). Actually it's like there is almost no aero.

I do have a CSP V1 pedal set and the best brake I have with ADAC is when I hit the break strong and quick but release it a little bit almost immediatly.
I do the same with DTM 2014 but here I can keep the pressure a little bit longer.

 

[Emilio]

In ADAC you must be very smooth on the pedal. No alternative way. (ok, maybe I should change my G27 to something else ). Actually it's like there is almost no aero.

Same equipment and same "issue" for me... braking physics in this game give me the chills everytime I'm approaching a tough turn...

 

[James Cook]

I don't think R3E physics are perfect but then again I've never driven a racing car so who am I to judge what's right and wrong? As long as the physics feel natural to me then I'm quite happy.

The 'difficulty = realism' school of thought isn't something I subscribe to. As far as I'm concerned I place more stock in how the simulation makes me feel when driving rather than whether it's 100% accurate (which isn't really possible). R3E is very satisfying to drive, helped by nice visuals and great sound.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

adac-gt masters still would need some tweaks, especially with the ratios.

talking about physics..... is there a dynamic raceline green->optimum, visually atleast i can't see one. not sure how i start from pits, cold tyres? i feel my laptimes get better after a few laps of practice-session, but not sure if i'm just driving faster after a little "warm-up", or it's because of the grip on the tarmac.

 

[Emilio]

adac-gt masters still would need some tweaks, especially with the ratios.

talking about physics..... is there a dynamic raceline green->optimum, visually atleast i can't see one. not sure how i start from pits, cold tyres? i feel my laptimes get better after a few laps of practice-session, but not sure if i'm just driving faster after a little "warm-up", or it's because of the grip on the tarmac.

I'm pretty positive it's because of the warm-up. I don't remember at what temperature you exit the pits, but definitely from lap 2 ahead the grip kicks in (before you wear out your tires!)

 

[Msportdan]

right okay... im not here to argue that this is that and that is this. But ive noticed something that I THINK is massively contributing to my experience of bad handling.
what that is, ive noticed that in RRe when you turn the wheel (car in motion) and when you turn back to straighten up. The FFB (or whatever) is forcing the wheel back (to centre) harder than what I think really it should.

okay so now your all gonna say turn your centre wheel back option off. Fair enough that's exactly what I thought but as I only have it at 20% its not that strong. How do I know this, because in gsc that's just enough to give me that feel of a car without over powering it back to centre. and this is fine for GSC it doesn't effect how I control the car. But it doesn't snap the wheel back like it does in RRe, it feels more natural.

So I turned it totally off in rre, thinking in excitement this will cure it.....but NO there is something that still tugs the wheel back (maybe trying to mimic tyre traction). This is what I believe is giving me the sway feeling trying to centre the car back. It feels odd to me as if the ffb is trying to create a gforce of the car turning back the other way.....

try it on your wheel..I have dfgt... I messed with lots of setting in FFb and profile and I cant rid this tug back my wheel produces.

 

[Dan Allen]

right okay... im not here to argue that this is that and that is this. But ive noticed something that I THINK is massively contributing to my experience of bad handling.
what that is, ive noticed that in RRe when you turn the wheel (car in motion) and when you turn back to straighten up. The FFB (or whatever) is forcing the wheel back (to centre) harder than what I think really it should.

okay so now your all gonna say turn your centre wheel back option off. Fair enough that's exactly what I thought but as I only have it at 20% its not that strong. How do I know this, because in gsc that's just enough to give me that feel of a car without over powering it back to centre. and this is fine for GSC it doesn't effect how I control the car.

So I turned it totally off in rre, thinking in excitement this will cure it.....but NO there is something that still tugs the wheel back (maybe trying to mimic tyre traction). This is what I believe is giving me the sway feeling trying to centre the car back. It feels odd to me as if the ffb is trying to create a gforce of the car turning back the other way.....

try it on your wheel..I have dfgt...

You're thinking of caster, right? Caster is a very important part of driving physics, it would be pretty daft to get rid of it completely if you like your sims to be as realistic as possible

 

[Msportdan]

no. im not even lookin at car setups, I believe its in the FFb or my wheel.

 

[Dan Allen]

no. im not even lookin at car setups, I believe its in the FFb or my wheel.

I know what you meant, what I meant is that the FFB is trying to recreate caster. I'm far from an expert, but if you've turned off the return to centre on the FFB and it's still too strong, try changing the steering angle on your car. You never know...

 

[Connor Caple]

I don't have this issue on my G25. I have never had centre-spring turned on, ever, and all the games return my wheel to the middle just using FFB.

 

[whaletail]

i gave ratio12 a try.....yep. much better with adac-gt cars but really much work on the wheel. the feeling of those low ratios should be the actual representing ratio or similar. does look more natural aswell.

For those trying to dial out slow corner over-rotation with decreased steering lock, there are other available adjustments that don't deaden the steering as much. Decreasing steering lock to 9-10 for the two Hockenheim hairpins, for example, requires such aggressive steering inputs elsewhere, that it may not be worth the trouble for many.

Decreasing the differential lock on power, increasing front ARB stiffness (and/or decreasing rear ARB stiffness), and decreasing positive toe (both front and rear), all help alleviate corner exit oversteer, without altering steering input demands. Lowering the front wing profile can also very effectively combat overly sensitive corner exit steering on faster corners.

Decreasing front negative camber (bringing the value closer to zero) and increasing (front) caster act similarly, albeit at a very reduced level.

If the oversteer is also felt during corner entry, increasing the differential lock on coast, moving brake bias forward, and softening the rear springs (along with stiffening the fronts) can be very helpful.

After significantly lowering steering lock to combat slow corner over-rotation, steering was too heavily compromised everywhere else. Judicious use of the above settings allowed me to increase steering lock to 20 degrees (CSW default is 23), with the over-rotation heavily mitigated.

Secondarily, the same adjustments also seem to have helped with the "center axis yaw pivot" (that defined the steering in Grid games, for example), although that may be placebo effect.

Henk