Twin Sims... The Build

[DrewRPh]

Cockpit focus.... from a total NOOB. Don't take any of the following as anything other than a complete newbie trying to do his due diligence before purchasing.

Spent several hours researching cockpits today...

Looking at the higher end Aluminum rigs.

Brands: in no particular order:
Next Level
Sim Labs
Trak Racer
ASr
GT Omega

Was warming up to the 90-degree uprights after initial looking at the slanted rigs from Next Level. Was thinking the angle might allow better access. Not much to say about Next level as I was beginning to shy away from it after looking at others with 90-degree uprights. I am not focusing too much on price, but Next Level does appear to be on the higher in of pricing when comparing what I would consider to be apples to apples.

Now it appears that Sim Labs has jumped on that ship with the P1X pro. Sim Labs appears to have the stiffest pedal base... but it isn't actually a pedal base rather just cross channel rather than a plate... the you can add a plate... The uprights appear to come up behind the wheel which "could" interfere with the monitor placement??? And WHY did they go to just 2 attachments on their 160 x 40? Apparently only for looks and that scares me as limiting the options to attach stuff. I am a total NOOB so don't understand if that would be a potential issue in the future. Hard to discount this brand when they are referred to as they "gold standard".

Trak Racer impressed me more the deeper I looked. Initially wrote them off but looks like a very solid build. Didn't like the red stripes or some of the red plates they use but you simply don't have to use the red stripes and the red plates are available in black. Looks very easy to convert this rig to suspended pedals which is something I am considering. They have 3 pedal base options to choose from. Have seem some videos where the pedal plate flexed a bit but only a small amount and no apparent difference than anyone other than SIM Lab with the cross channels. They seem to have an extensive product line that I could grow with (flight sim expander).

ASR6 appears well built. 90-degree uprights. Very solid and on the lower end of the pricing scale.

Figured out that pic I liked earlier was the GT Omega Prime. Appears to be sold out at the moment. No clue how long that will last. Like the 90-degree uprights and lack of Logo's. Pedal plate has front to back slots for mounting rather than side to side which could limit pedal placement. Only comes with reclining seat but could get seat elsewhere. Why are they not using black screws?

Decisions... decisions.

Need to sleep on this.... Or Flip a coin... LOL

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Had to discount this brand when they are referred to as they "gold standard".

Sim-lab redesigned their old P1X, there are pluses and minuses. I have older design, but after watching the video wouldn't mind upgrading, there are some nice things like lighter weight, better pedal and monitor mount. I don't think lack of extra channels in profile will impede anything at least for my setup with swiveling keyboard tray, mouse pad, H-Shifter and E-Brake. I am not sure if there is anything else you can possibly want to attach to the rig.
BTW, pedals can be bolted directly to the pedal tray, I had my Heusinkvield pedals mounted that way.

 

[DrewRPh]

Yup. I watched both of those videos in my research. Listened to them again on my way to work after you posted them.

I guess I would have a hard time believing that I would miss the extra channels if the "Gold Standard" did away with them. If they don't need them, I sure wouldn't.

Lighter would make me think less stable but saw a few videos and it looks rock solid.

Also have a hard time believing that the uprights would get in the way of the perfect POV distance for the monitors if they designed it that way.

 

[DrewRPh]

Sat down to continue research the cockpit and got sidetracked with monitors... So easily distracted am I...

Not finding a listing of side bezel width in the specs of the monitors. Briefly got into an on-line chat with a Samsung rep and he appeared to be clueless of what I was asking. I finally gave up. Now I am just looking at the pictures and crossing fingers... LOL

Still fairly clueless on this but looking at 32' 1440 curved monitors with min 165 Hz. Was looking at Samsung Odyssey G6 but the bezel looked a bit thick, and they are $500 a piece on sale.

Found the following online.

Looks like a small bezel and the specs I need???

One issue... I wasn't quite serious about pulling the trigger yet but tried to put a qty of 6 in and it said limit 5 per customer... LOL... Of course...

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Triples are hassle, and not all racing titles properly support them, check out ultrawides like Samsung G9 49" or their new 57" monster.

 

[DrewRPh]

This appears to be the monitor that ASR uses in many of their demos but appears to have a much wider bezel. The specs seem equal or lower than the above.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Triples are hassle, and not all racing titles properly support them, check out ultrawides like Samsung G9 49" or their new 57" monster.

Let´s agree to disagree here.

I concede that mounting and setting up is more work than single monitors but it´s totally worth it.

1. you can drive the sim as you drive your car, you can use side windows and all three mirrors
(in the places you are used to) to look for competitors.
Also turning your head to look behind the corner feels natural.

2. tripples allow your brain to use the peripheral vision to "feel the movement of the car".
My irl countersteer reflex reapeared the moment I upgraded my 42" flat screen to 27" triples.

 

[Michael Krone]

Let´s agree to disagree here.

I concede that mounting and setting up is more work than single monitors but it´s totally worth it.

1. you can drive the sim as you drive your car, you can use side windows and all three mirrors
(in the places you are used to) to look for competitors.
Also turning your head to look behind the corner feels natural.

2. tripples allow your brain to use the peripheral vision to "feel the movement of the car".
My irl countersteer reflex reapeared the moment I upgraded my 42" flat screen to 27" triples.

Very much agree here. Its a real pain to set them up BUT even a poorly set up triple setup has all these advantages.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Curved ultrawide is essentially a triple without bezels at a fixed spinner angle. You can have all these advantages of multi monitors in a simple single monitor setup, higher fov, all three mirrors in the view, and even triple screen projection if sim supports it. Head tracking if you have one, is a nice cherry on the top, extending horizontal view even more when turning your head.
So the advantage of true triple setup is pretty much just adjustable spinner angle, but it comes at a hefty price of bulky and more complex HW and SW setup, visible bezels breaking view, dealing with games not supporting triples, etc.
I completely understand the old school thinking, triples or die, but with larger ultrawides getting more popular, triples quickly become thing of the past.
I don't think I've seen triple setups on recent SimExpos, seems like everyone is on ultrawides these days.

But we've had other threads where this topic was debated to death. With each setup having pros and cons, you will find die-hard supporters in either camp, with the occasional "no VR, no buy" proponents thrown into the mix.

 

[stigs2cousin]

So you´re saying Ultrawides nowadays give you a realistic FOW of 160-180°

Bezels disturb you or not, that´s "in the eye of the beholder"

And for the Ultrawides on mobile rigs there is an easy and logical explanation:
of course it´s easier to mount one monitor instead of three anytime you setup or pack up on an expo.

Also don´t underestimate the power of product placement and sponsorship.

As you said, Drew has made his decision, let´s not clutter this thread anymore than necessary.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I have to admit leaving VR off the table does simplify things And I say that as someone who loves VR. Especially for this twin rigs configuration, keeping it open air may add a social element that would be missing if one or both racers were isolated and couldn't easily see the other person.

 

[DrewRPh]

Triples are hassle, and not all racing titles properly support them, check out ultrawides like Samsung G9 49" or their new 57" monster.

Don't disagree they could be a hassle and understand some games may not be supported. I could also fix my space issue a bit with singles too, but I see triples in my future.

I have to admit leaving VR off the table does simplify things And I say that as someone who loves VR. Especially for this twin rigs configuration, keeping it open air may add a social element that would be missing if one or both racers were isolated and couldn't easily see the other person.

Not doing VR is one of the few things I am sure of (at least in the initial build). My current top "No's" to VR is:
1. Open air to a more social experience.
2. My eldest daughter gets motion sick pretty easily (still could happen with screens)
3. I don't want to be passing around dirty head gear to a variety of people.

 

[DrewRPh]

I have probably been averaging north of 2 hours of research every day. This morning while getting ready for work I began to doubt my overall plan.... Two of these??? Thankfully that only lasted about 30 minutes... LOL

One significant change in thought came this morning after viewing several You Tube videos last night.

I am now considering (make that planning to) attaching the monitors to the rig rather than free standing.

1. Initially I am not planning for motion other than a FFB wheel.
2. It will free up floor space.
3. It will be more stable than top heavy monitor stands that could potentially get bumped by the variety of people sliding in and out.
4. It is fairly easy and not terribly expensive to swap to free standing in the future if I add motion.
5. I am planning a higher end, sturdy rig that should minimize monitor movement.

Two things I believe I am ready to order:

1. Heusinkveld Sprint Pedals
2. Simucube 2 Pro wheelbase

Now on to other decisions...

 

[DrewRPh]

Tour of ASR facility link here for future reference.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

1. Heusinkveld Sprint Pedals
2. Simucube 2 Pro wheelbase

On Sprint pedals
And check out Asetek wheelbase, has more thought out QR design, and in general favorably reviewed comparing to SC2. SC2 is EOL product, SC3 is underway already.

 

[stigs2cousin]

On Sprint pedals
And check out Asetek wheelbase, has more thought out QR design, and in general favorably reviewed comparing to SC2.

QR is more complicated (and prone to damage, see Danny Lee video on Youtube) but has USB functionality.

Asetek design is a matter of taste, way too RGB flashy/Logitechy/Gamerstyle for me.

And of course Youtubers hype the newest tech, they want to stay in business for "review samples"

SC2 is EOL product, SC3 is underway already.

Can you give a source for that?
I only found two rumour threads on GD Forums, no concrete info from Simucube.

 

[RCHeliguy]

There are a lot controls out there, and I don't pretend to know them all. There are some names that have been around a long time. Heusinkveld, and SimuCube are among them.

Many pedal companies appeared around the time of Covid when all sim related controls were in very short supply. Some of these companies have gone away. More will likely go away.

If you look at YouTube, you will find at least one person saying that nearly ever pedal set out there is excellent or the best. You will be able to find videos slamming even well liked products with good reputations.

On top of that people have very different use cases. Some people like to race in socks. Some prefer to wear shoes. Some race IRL and want matching brake pedal pressure to their real race cars, others just want something comfortable, or even something they hope will give them an edge without any concerns about realism.

Pedal sets come with different default settings and many people will pass judgement on a pedal set by how they feel out of the box. Some people go the complete opposite direction and immediately start messing with their pedals swapping out cushions and changing settings without any settling in period to get used to them.

I have made the mistake of configuring a set of pedals to not work as well as they did out of the box while trying to adjust them to reduce my throttle heel sliding. I've installed a new set of pedals and had them feel very different to me initially and then just a day later feel perfectly comfortable.

I currently use HE Ultimates and because of their adjustability and how well they work in my inverted configuration, and a few other things particular to my rig that make them work well for me, but I can't tell you that you would like them or like them better than another brand. I can say that Heusinkveld in particular has a reputation for outstanding service and sending parts out at no charge even for controls well out of warranty. They are not CNC's artistic masterpieces, but they do work well.

Here is the rub. I initially had a set of Fanatec Club Sport V3 pedals. They come fixed in place on a frame with foot plate. They have two springs options for the throttle and the clutch. and there is a brake performance kit for the adjusting brake pressure. I will not say that they feel as good as what I use now. They are not nearly as adjustable as what I have now, but as they come out of the box, they work. I put the curved pedal faces on them and drove them for over a year. They worked and were pretty comfortable.

Unfortunately, Fanatec is having some production issues and their support has been problematic lately, so I have trouble recommending them.

For your first pedals, I highly recommend getting some that offer a frame with foot plate just to make sure your heel height is reasonable to the front of the pedal and most will have a lip to catch your heel. That will give you a reasonable starting point.

 

[RCHeliguy]

As far as the SimuCube 2 wheel bases go, they seem to be the center of the universe right now for direct drive wheel bases. As a result their are piles of online profiles available for every title and frequently specific cars and as a beginner having all those profiles that you can simply click a button drive around and try another can be a real godsend.

I've never had an issue with the QR on my SC2 Pro, but the stock QR is completely replaceable and I've seen people replace them with QR's that appear identical to what is used in real race cars.

I got mine in the 2nd production run, but I have zero complaints with it.

At this point it seems that there are many direct drive systems with enough power and internal processing to create a realistic feel with the main limitation being the software that drives them. I wouldn't be too worried about what is coming. Nothing is forever.

 

[DrewRPh]

And check out Asetek wheelbase, has more thought out QR design, and in general favorably reviewed comparing to SC2. SC2 is EOL product, SC3 is underway already.

Thanks for that... LOL (sarcasm added). I just spent another 2 hours reviewing the Asetek line on a decision I thought was already made. Now 2 hours is not exhaustive research by any means, and I do see some advantages to the connectivity and power available directly to the wheel. Not convinced the QR is an advantage. I questioned the potential of any play in the wheel of the Simucube connection as well until I saw that you can adjust the fit of the pin to ensure a rock-solid connection. Some refer to the pin being outdated but I look at a connection where very little can go wrong. And to me, I would think this is a very important connection.

Seems to make sense that the wheelbases would allow for both power and connectivity to the wheel. Why would you want to connect a wire to something that is nearly always in motion. Batteries and recharging technology as well as wireless connections continue to improve but I am old enough to like the reliability of a direct connection (same reason I am running hard wired network lines rather than using my wireless capability). Fewer variables... Have to connect it somehow and lots of people have been doing it for a long time so it will get connected one way or the other.

Too bad there isn't a standard connection... or not. The type of modifications necessary to cross-connect these pieces is the type of tinkering that appears to be in the "wheelhouse" (pardon the pun) of those putting these rigs together in the first place.

Asetek design is a matter of taste, way too RGB flashy/Logitechy/Gamerstyle for me

I am too new to seriously comment on this, but I tend to agree at least regarding the wheel itself. I kind of like the LED's on the wheelbase.

As a result, there are piles of online profiles available for every title and frequently specific cars and as a beginner having all those profiles that you can simply click a button drive around and try another can be a real godsend.

I caught on to this in the reviews (even those favoring the Asetek Line) and think they could be extremely beneficial to someone new like me. I am sure I can find a default profile to use for my visitors that will protect them from the powerful feedback this equipment is capable of (definitely don't want any injuries).

Ok. So, getting back from this tangent... Back to where I was. Simucube 2 Pro it is.

As for the Wheel.... Ya could use some guidance but will start a new post for that.

As for the Pedals, sticking with the Heusinkveld Sprint Pedals. Considering the Sim Lab sliding base plate on one of the rigs to allow an adjustment for the shorter folks.

I have decided to also bail on the thought of inverted pedals (for now). Standard positioning will be more than sufficient.

Thanks for all of the input.

 

[DrewRPh]

Wheels.

So, at some point I need to connect the weakest part of the chain (me... and my guests) to this system and apparently that will require a wheel (two of them).

Hmmmm.... Just started thinking here. Why buy two of the same wheels? If they are in the same category of wheel (say, round), I don't see slightly different wheels giving a competitive advantage to visitors on one vs another that do not use the system regularly. This would allow me to get my feet wet with 2 different wheels to begin finding MY preferences long term. These two wheels can be pulled out even if I have more custom, expensive wheel in the future when guests come over.

Requirements:
1. Round (or mostly round) GT wheels for both. F1 wheels will be down the road.
2. Must include a quality, paddle shifter
3. Some buttons? Probably do not need 30 buttons and dials. How many are necessary for the basics? Don't know.
4. I prefer black but not a deal breaker
5. Do not want cheap or cheap looking plastic. Want it to look like a wheel and not an arcade game.
6. Want it to be rigid.
7. Something you would be comfortable putting on your rig to demo to others even if it doesn't have the 30 controls on the wheel you may use.
8. Something that will attach easily to the simucube 2 pro
9. Wired or wireless connection.
10. Budget? Can I find a decent, long-lasting wheel for $300-700 US (each)? Might struggle to pay more than this for a "starter" / "visitor" wheel.
11. Do I need secondary paddles for a clutch?
12. Lastly, this doesn't need to be a "starter" wheel. If I end up with one I really like in this pair, and is has sufficient controls, no need to upgrade later.

Brands I should be looking at?

Thoughts?