The SimFeedback-AC DIY Motion Simulator thread

sjb266 · Sep 17, 2018

Hey guys. Thought I’d create a thread for those taking the plunge into this brilliant DIY project..
I will be starting mine soon and I know there are others thinking about it.. so feel free to share your knowledge and experiences so we can all enjoy this platform to its full potential. A huge thanks to the developers who have really knocked this one out of the park!

Website: https://opensfx.com/2019/02/20/welcome-to-our-new-site/

Github: https://github.com/SimFeedback/SimFeedback-AC-Servo/wiki

For all the internals for the actuator contact Amy - skye@ntl-bearing.com
She can supply everything you need. Just remind her you want the ends of the shafts chamfered and make sure she sends the right sized ball screw - we have had a couple of issues reported. She is very helpful though and the cost is pretty good.

Huge thanks to @RowanH for writing a comprehensive user guide which can be accessed here - https://www.rowanhick.com/sfx-100-build-and-running-guide

In addition, @anton_Chez has contributed a list of post numbers for some of the important settings etc..
Post #320 SFX-100 thread
Post #327 SFX-100 thread for Discord correlation
Post #339 SFX-100 thread
Post #418 SFX-100 thread
Post #424 SFX-100 thread
Post #439 SFX-100 thread
Post #449 SFX-100 thread
Post #517 SFX-100 thread
Post #554 SFX-100 thread
Post #580 SFX-100 thread
Post #826 SFX-100 thread
Post #837 SFX-100 thread
Post #864,866,867,868,870,887,889,897 SFX-100 thread
Post #911,914 SFX-100 thread
Post #988,992,998 SFX-100 thread
Post #1147 SFX-100 thread
Post #1492 SFX-100 thread
Post #1511,1517 SFX-100 thread

I will try to keep this page updated with links to source the parts in other parts of the world. Just post whatever links you have and i'll add them here.

Please note: Not all the parts listed below are essential for the project. For the essential parts refer to the original shopping list.

Australia:

Thanks to @AussieSim for the following links:

10A power lead(s) * 4
https://www.jaycar.com.au/2m-black-mains-extension-lead/p/PS4152

Top quality wire stripper
https://sydneytools.com.au/product/boxo-cutws205-multifunction-wire-stripper

RCD/safety switch power block
https://www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-4-outlet-heavy-duty-portable-safety-switch_p4420028

WD-40 lithium grease for the ball screws
https://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-300g-high-performance-white-lithium-grease_p6100408

Vibration pads
https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-100-x-12-5mm-rubber-anti-vibration-mat-4-pack_p3961547

WD-40 Dry PTFE spray for the slider (free shipping)
https://au.rs-online.com/mobile/p/lubricants/7577134/

Arduino Leonardo (free shipping + frequent 10-15% off discount)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/a000057/arduino-corporation

DB25 cables * 4 (free shipping)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ak401-2/assmann-wsw-components-inc

PETG * 3 (free shipping)
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/petg17bk1/mg-chemicals

WAGO-like connectors to avoid a breadboard (perhaps use genuine ones if you are doing 240V AC)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32906719488.html

D-Sub breakout boards * 4
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32297675967.html

3D printer Creality Ender-3 Pro
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32918302452.html

Wires from Arduino to D-Sub breakout (remove black plastic from the WAGO end)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32887680826.html

Crimp connectors for AC wire leads
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32813550981.html

anton_Chez · Oct 5, 2018

I think the weight will definitely help keep the thing planted. It has to. But again, for a fraction of the cost, would you rather a slightly louder and less refined operation noise, or reduced performance when compared to a D-Box? Slightly tuning the settings to suit your noise level tolerances surely has to be better than sacrificing overall power and capabilites of the system, no? Tuning does this anyway and at least you have the choice.

Barry normally runs the Lotus open wheeler, I'd say the suspension on that thing is about as stiff as it gets regarding vertical movement. So a good indication of how noisy (or lack thereof) the D-Box would be under a relatively high load. Of course settings come into play. You'd have to check what he runs it at. I do know he opts to run full motion capability and forego the tactile output of the actuators. Not sure this is good or bad for noise levels. No vibrations but higher power output regarding suspension travel.

HugoB · Oct 5, 2018

Would also really like to see a proper latency test of the SFX100 DIY setup. Here you can already see it is pretty synchronized though:

Edit: it is nicely visible at the 3:30 mark. And at 4:40 you can see some curb action.

RaceNut · Oct 5, 2018

Regarding noise: with the D-box, most of the noise generated is a result of the tactile aspect; fast movements, repeated at high frequency. My rig is made with 80/20 profile and rests on a concrete floor (Standard D-box isolating feet) and there is a distinct low humming resonance that results when I have the engine-vibes turned up. In some cases, the tactile vibrations can cause parts of the rig to rattle or resonate so I try to minimize those.

The larger movements (heave effect) are very quiet and most satisfying with this type of setup imo, so even if noise is a concern, there should be ways to strike a good balance between motion, some tactile-effects and noise levels.

In cases where this rig is combined with SimVibe-type tactile hardware, I think finding practical methods of isolating tactile-vibe energy to where it is most effective will be key. Expecting transducers to vibrate an entire actuator-type race-frame is not going to be very realistic imo.

There needs to be some form of dampening or suspension involved (between the frame & seat for example) to maximize the effects. A seat that is less-rigid may actually have some advantages in this case, as the pair of ADX bass-shakers I used could be felt through the seat base when effectively mounted (even in a left / right suspension bump-effects setup).

I think combining both the actuators for motion and tactile hardware may be the best of both worlds in actual performance but, good tactile design is just as important here as it is with a stationary rig imo.

HoiHman · Oct 5, 2018

So i have only spend some time today in de AI driver mode in Assetto Corsa, but for me personally i probably only need tactile for engine rpm and nothing else.

That's the way i see it now, but things could change after driving a couple of hours.
The acculators give SO MUCH feedback, that i just could not imagine what a tactile transducer could add to that besides engine RPM.

Engine RPM is also in SimFeedBack ( as i know it is in D-box) but i could not get it working (YET !)

I think my previous video gave the wrong idea guys. The actuators are super quiet. It was just the rear jumping up and down due to the uneven load.

I had a friend come over today and he sees no problem using this setup on his attic.

Mascot · Oct 5, 2018

HoiHman said:
So i have only spend some time today in de AI driver mode in Assetto Corsa, but for me personally i probably only need tactile for engine rpm and nothing else.

That's the way i see it now, but things could change after driving a couple of hours.
The acculators give SO MUCH feedback, that i just could not imagine what a tactile transducer could add to that besides engine RPM.

Engine RPM is also in SimFeedBack ( as i know it is in D-box) but i could not get it working (YET !)

I think my previous video gave the wrong idea guys. The actuators are super quiet. It was just the rear jumping up and down due to the uneven load.

I had a friend come over today and he sees no problem using this setup on his attic.

Bloody hell. This thing is the real deal, isn't it?
You must be absolutely stoked Henk..!

Mr Latte · Oct 5, 2018

HoiHman said:
So i have only spend some time today in de AI driver mode in Assetto Corsa, but for me personally i probably only need tactile for engine rpm and nothing else.

That's the way i see it now, but things could change after driving a couple of hours.
The acculators give SO MUCH feedback, that i just could not imagine what a tactile transducer could add to that besides engine RPM.

Engine RPM is also in SimFeedBack ( as i know it is in D-box) but i could not get it working (YET !)

I think my previous video gave the wrong idea guys. The actuators are super quiet. It was just the rear jumping up and down due to the uneven load.

I had a friend come over today and he sees no problem using this setup on his attic.

I would love to feel the tactile configuration I am in the process of testing on a motion rig like this with a professional installation also being incorporated. It's rather creative and beyond anything done before, well that I know of personally. Its enabling very high levels of low bass energy, detail and control but bringing an installation approach that I have never seen anyone do.

Not going to evoke a whole "tactile discussion" here, or my own mad scientist approach with tactile, that is best for my own thread and this will come in time but the query I have and point if I may highlight is how tactile may be able to bring more specific character to the different cars that motion may not. Please feel free to offer input on this regards motion.

Tactile on D-Box or VR3 is very limited in the options or the control over the "actual effects" being generated.

Creative Car Character
One thing I have found very apparent with building quality effects for SSW. When I compare different folders I have with different files developed for specific effects. These with many hours in testing and created over several months. You mention how d.i.y is great well to me this is d.i.y in tactile letting us create the "sensation we desire" within the waveform and is one advantage developing such "tailor fitted" effects to what other solutions present.

Testing this with my own hardware, I can feel very unique differences from the sensations of the effects being generated. A result of this has me at the point that I see real potential in further investigating the idea of using tactile to bring not just good feeling feedback in effects that may feel often much the same.

Instead, however, utilising personalised effects to differentiate the feedback and character sustained from the tactile and felt from the differing telemetry values that different cars produce. In essence, having effects to suit different groups of cars or at least some profiles using effects that offer a wide variation in the feedback or immersion they bring.

Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini Roadcar based car Vs Track/Racecar
Examples of this would be softer to more raw bumps/suspension, low to high G-force levels in not just cornering/lateral sensations but also to suit a cars horsepower/braking via weak-ultra strong longitudinal forces being applied for acceleration and deceleration. These will work in tandem with a motion rig dipping at the rear or front but is effects that Simvibe users will not get to enjoy as it does not cater for them. These example additions are even before we consider how the gearchange feels or the engine is represented for the type of car being driven.

Its this type of thing I love experimenting with in tactile and how it brings a rig alive and to seek beyond tactile that feels very samey for all cars or is limited to only one solution.

How these types or variations in road-track car equivalents feel different in motion, please I would like to learn or understand more of the differences or if they are even vastly different experiences on a motion rig? Can anyone expand on this beyond some having more degrees of motion/travel?

Wish you well with the build, the challenge and adventure of it all is rather fascinating as is the potential.

HoiHman · Oct 6, 2018

Seems i'm not alone, i just noticed this post from Martin Ascher ( a SFX100 beta tester )
on the Iracing forum, saying exactly the same thing.

I made a screenshot since probably not everybody is a member

sjb266 · Oct 6, 2018

Awesome.. will be great to be rid of SimVibe!

Michal Burisin · Oct 6, 2018

HoiHman said:
Seems i'm not alone, i just noticed this post from Martin Ascher ( a SFX100 beta tester )
on the Iracing forum, saying exactly the same thing.

I made a screenshot since probably not everybody is a member

Makes me think if I haven't picked wrong path with tactile.

I wonder what about more advanced tactile installations and what they might bring to SFX100. I have worked on tactile pretty hard, I got 6x big BK Concert and running SimVibe + SSW mixed together and result is pretty amazing. What I like about it the most is L / R and front to back separation, when I can feel bumps / kerbs etc. exactly on which wheel it happened.

Also SSW effects lateral acceleration and wheel slip provides great feeling, lateral force is also L / R effect which increases until wheel slip kicks in which tells you to back off throttle or steering.

Also engine vibrations + wheel slip etc. are delivered nicely directly to the pedals.

I wonder how is it with L / R separation and front / back separation with SFX. Because it's mounted to the chassis and all the vibrations are travelling uncontrolled through the rig, especially some more subtle effects.

But then again it might be closer to real life as in normal car, I have also sometimes trouble distinguish which wheel have hit some particular bump.

I'm really interested in this as I wouldn't want to throw away my last year of work on tactile, but it seems the SFX can replace lot of tactile effects. I guess I will find out next year.

I think @Magiashkii said he still uses tactile with d-box - he initially thought he won't use it anymore, but then found out it can still bring something to d-box, I'm not sure if it's still the case.

HoiHman · Oct 6, 2018

All i can say, is just with AI driver in AC i never felt the curb so clear and never felt such a good left right separation.

I haven't been able to drive it myself yet, but i will hopefully this weekend

HugoB · Oct 6, 2018

HoiHman said:
All i can say, is just with AI driver in AC i never felt the curb so clear and never felt such a good left right separation.

I haven't been able to drive it myself yet, but i will hopefully this weekend

So excited! The news about it being able to portray tactile is like winning the lotto twice! I always thought only D-Box could do that... but if it can make you feel tactile up to anything close to 200Hz, that is pure gold right there.

I was worried about tactile and motion, because the tactile needs isolation to be effective, but isolation also dampens the motion feedback, so this is good news. Those 2000 bucks are getting you more and more. Keep it coming!

Mr Latte · Oct 6, 2018

HoiHman said:
Seems i'm not alone, i just noticed this post from Martin Ascher ( a SFX100 beta tester )
on the Iracing forum, saying exactly the same thing.

I made a screenshot since probably not everybody is a member

For a lot of people, this is good news, especially if they have been using fairly basic tactile. It adds greatly to the value for the costs involved. I am not convinced it will better what we can already have (at least on a personal level) from a tactile based perspective. I do however like the idea of what I do have in tactile, being added perhaps at one point to a motion based rig. Such with VR and wind would really push the immersion boundaries.

You can believe this or not, but from what I seen not a single rig at SimExpo this year is close to what I personally will do with tactile for my own build as really most professional sim building companies dont attempt to go beyond the typical Simvibe usage or approach.

I share some views, they may or not be of interest, if not just ignore them.
To many "tactile" may be a secondary or bonus concern, so my perspective is different as for me it is the primary hobby/interest and enjoyed immersion at this time. I have looked pretty much at most options, in hardware and software. Motion solutions for tactile are typically very limited or restricted if we look deeply into what they bring with comparisons to a dedicated tactile installation and software options.

Henk, as I asked earlier, when you or someone shows what the software does and enables for tactile then that will give a better idea to what the potential with it is.

D-Box for example has loads of power with its tactile but the user has very limited controls or options to determine the effects operation or customising the felt sensations. VR3 is the same but a MAJOR part of tactile as it is "frequency based" is the ability to build or control the sensations of the effects, not just have a powerful method to deploy them.

The point I raised and none of you motion owners have yet explained what "motion" does towards the character or personality for each car to make them different experiences. I dont see tactile as the same thing as motion, even G seat movers with pressure paddles as tactile can bring sensory involvement that is not the same as motion or pressure based contact.

What do I mean, well tactile can greatly vary in the sensation it delivers and cater for various sensations moreso than motion. The more a build can increase the sensory involvement with the user then the more likely enjoyable or immersive the tactile becomes. How body regions are used to expand the sensory impact is also important. So a big part of tactile is controlling not just what represents the "effect sensation" but how and what path the tactile energy can/has to take and what body regions it effectively uses for going into the user.

Simvibes, UI limitations for multilayers and no organising or grouping of them was such a tore as is having to manually adjust each channel output. Its just totally impractical if seeking to do more complexed effects. Something that never really took off with Simvibe was "Profile" creation or sharing. My assumption is, most of you if using Simvibe have tactile that is rather similar from one car to the next. Yes maybe profiles with +/- energy but to me this should not be the way it has to be at all, as good tactile effects creation can go much more beyond this.

The community is full and growing of 8020 owners, yet show me if I am wrong but none of you have even attempted to group together to seriously try to discover what is the best way to install tactile. Discuss and implement what units to use and what software to use or indeed combine. Taking into account all the different hardware and software options available.

You have folks at your control the basis of a platform that can be built the same but adapted for different seats etc. To use this as a way to ensure the felt sensations from the build are coherent, thus making something like the idea of "Shared Profiles" that can work much more possible. On top of this not a single 8020 cockpit builder is selling a rig based to advance the immersion or even accommodate multichannel tactile installations. By all means correct me here, show me a rig from SimXpo that pushed tactile immersion to a new height or level?

Are you telling me you seriously think tactile from a motion unit installed on the 4 corners is going to be the best option? I have my doubts, firstly on what the software enables compared to the solutions we already have. Although I do not doubt it can bring a very enjoyable tactile experience and one that people will desire to have or use.

Shakeit software is close to the point of being better than Simvibe and certainly at least has a modern UI. It too like SSW supports "G" based effects that Simvibe does not. Things have moved on since Simvibe but its best aspect as a solution with using "tone generation" based tactile it seems more suitable to "engine" effect requirements. Therefore we can if we want to implement some effects from this solution into a professionally based mix with others.

SSW with "waveform generation" brings personalised design to effects. The limit here as it is basically audio, is down to how good the effect is designed/created for the purpose it is for. So
be it for personal preference to suit a build or installation, or designed to operate on specific tactile hardware/models performance capabilities it brings much more specific control to the effect than tone generation. I know the possibilities with this having experimented and worked at effects creation for over a year. Experimenting with things like having a gear effect come from the center front channel and expand to the rear, then fade to the 4 corners. This level of channel control is not possible with Simvibe or Shakeit. So creative experimentation can bring nice sensations lets say beyond the typical idea that a gear effect is often the same, static sensation and output on multiple channels the same way and same time.

Audio driven tactile can deliver characteristics from the car being used/driven but also often effects that telemetry may not offer. It has its own benefits that cant be added with a telemetry-based solution. To use at its best potential we need controls in EQ to get the most out of the audio to suit better operation on tactile. So the EQ we apply is not affecting the speaker/headset audio output.

Ideally none of the above solutions bring the ultimate/best tactile experience on their own. Yet with each we find some potential benefits. Thus from a lot of work and testing, I have incorporated a way to easily control and use all 3 options (if desired) but for my own installation, such is not limited to a single tactile units operation and this be overwhelmed. So it depends how far you want to take things as to what the potential immersion is or can be. I do not see one single hardware/software solution bringing the best immersion or sensations.

Tactile, to be at its best needs good effects, it needs controls and methods for how the effects are deployed or delivered into the users body regions and a factor you cannot ignore is controlling what the user feels from whatever method or indeed methods are used. We also cannot overlook how effects from 4 motion actuators is delivered to the user in the seat and pedals so that they get fully directional sensations but also feel the detailing, not just the strongest effect frequencies.

Simvibe is overrated, yet most in the community have stuck with it or use it and not kept upto date with what has been happening with other options or the potential they deliver.

I will watch this thread with interest, let's keep our feet on the ground and see in time what the pros or cons are with this motion solution.

It may have a lot of "motion cockpit manufacturers" concerned in how it may start affecting their business.

sjb266 · Oct 6, 2018

Mr Latte said:
I will watch this thread with interest, let's keep or feet on the ground and see in time what the pros or cons are with this motion solution.

Or.... let's get really friggen excited and rejoice from the roof tops for what is going to end up being one of the most significant inventions of the 21st century!!

Michal Burisin · Oct 6, 2018

Mr Latte said:
For a lot of people, this is good news, especially if they have been using fairly basic tactile. It adds greatly to the value for the costs involved. I am not convinced it will better what we can already have (at least on a personal level) from a tactile based perspective. I do however like the idea of what I do have in tactile, being added perhaps at one point to a motion based rig. Such with VR and wind would really push the immersion boundaries.

You can believe this or not, but from what I seen not a single rig at SimExpo this year is close to what I personally will do with tactile for my own build as really most professional sim building companies dont attempt to go beyond the typical Simvibe usage or approach.

I share some views, they may or not be of interest, if not just ignore them.
To many "tactile" may be a secondary or bonus concern, so my perspective is different as for me it is the primary hobby/interest and enjoyed immersion at this time. I have looked pretty much at most options, in hardware and software. Motion solutions for tactile are typically very limited or restricted if we look deeply into what they bring with comparisons to a dedicated tactile installation and software options.

Henk, as I asked earlier, when you or someone shows what the software does and enables for tactile then that will give a better idea to what the potential with it is.

D-Box for example has loads of power with its tactile but the user has very limited controls or options to determine the effects operation or customising the felt sensations. VR3 is the same but a MAJOR part of tactile as it is "frequency based" is the ability to build or control the sensations of the effects, not just have a powerful method to deploy them.

The point I raised and none of you motion owners have yet explained what "motion" does towards the character or personality for each car to make them different experiences. I dont see tactile as the same thing as motion, even G seat movers with pressure paddles as tactile can bring sensory involvement that is not the same as motion or pressure based contact.

What do I mean, well tactile can greatly vary in the sensation it delivers and cater for various sensations moreso than motion. The more a build can increase the sensory involvement with the user then the more likely enjoyable or immersive the tactile becomes. How body regions are used to expand the sensory impact is also important. So a big part of tactile is controlling not just what represents the "effect sensation" but how and what path the tactile energy can/has to take and what body regions it effectively uses for going into the user.

Simvibes, UI limitations for multilayers and no organising or grouping of them was such a tore as is having to manually adjust each channel output. Its just totally impractical if seeking to do more complexed effects. Something that never really took off with Simvibe was "Profile" creation or sharing. My assumption is, most of you if using Simvibe have tactile that is rather similar from one car to the next. Yes maybe profiles with +/- energy but to me this should not be the way it has to be at all, as good tactile effects creation can go much more beyond this.

The community is full and growing of 8020 owners, yet show me if I am wrong but none of you have even attempted to group together to seriously try to discover what is the best way to install tactile. Discuss and implement what units to use and what software to use or indeed combine. Taking into account all the different hardware and software options available.

You have folks at your control the basis of a platform that can be built the same but adapted for different seats etc. To use this as a way to ensure the felt sensations from the build are coherent, thus making something like the idea of "Shared Profiles" that can work much more possible. On top of this not a single 8020 cockpit builder is selling a rig based to advance the immersion or even accommodate multichannel tactile installations. By all means correct me here, show me a rig from SimXpo that pushed tactile immersion to a new height or level?

Are you telling me you seriously think tactile from a motion unit installed on the 4 corners is going to be the best option? I have my doubts, firstly on what the software enables compared to the solutions we already have. Although I do not doubt it can bring a very enjoyable tactile experience and one that people will desire to have or use.

Shakeit software is close to the point of being better than Simvibe and certainly at least has a modern UI. It too like SSW supports "G" based effects that Simvibe does not. Things have moved on since Simvibe but its best aspect as a solution with using "tone generation" based tactile it seems more suitable to "engine" effect requirements. Therefore we can if we want to implement some effects from this solution into a professionally based mix with others.

SSW with "waveform generation" brings personalised design to effects. The limit here as it is basically audio, is down to how good the effect is designed/created for the purpose it is for. So
be it for personal preference to suit a build or installation, or designed to operate on specific tactile hardware/models performance capabilities it brings much more specific control to the effect than tone generation. I know the possibilities with this having experimented and worked at effects creation for over a year. Experimenting with things like having a gear effect come from the center front channel and expand to the rear, then fade to the 4 corners. This level of channel control is not possible with Simvibe or Shakeit. So creative experimentation can bring nice sensations lets say beyond the typical idea that a gear effect is often the same, static sensation and output on multiple channels the same way and same time.

Audio driven tactile can deliver characteristics from the car being used/driven but also often effects that telemetry may not offer. It has its own benefits that cant be added with a telemetry-based solution. To use at its best potential we need controls in EQ to get the most out of the audio to suit better operation on tactile. So the EQ we apply is not affecting the speaker/headset audio output.

Ideally none of the above solutions bring the ultimate/best tactile experience on their own. Yet with each we find some potential benefits. Thus from a lot of work and testing, I have incorporated a way to easily control and use all 3 options (if desired) but for my own installation, such is not limited to a single tactile units operation and this be overwhelmed. So it depends how far you want to take things as to what the potential immersion is or can be. I do not see one single hardware/software solution bringing the best immersion or sensations.

Tactile, to be at its best needs good effects, it needs controls and methods for how the effects are deployed or delivered into the users body regions and a factor you cannot ignore is controlling what the user feels from whatever method or indeed methods are used. We also cannot overlook how effects from 4 motion actuators is delivered to the user in the seat and pedals so that they get fully directional sensations but also feel the detailing, not just the strongest effect frequencies.

Simvibe is overrated, yet most in the community have stuck with it or use it and not kept upto date with what has been happening with other options or the potential they deliver.

I will watch this thread with interest, let's keep our feet on the ground and see in time what the pros or cons are with this motion solution.

It may have a lot of "motion cockpit manufacturers" concerned in how it may start affecting their business.

I believe, that this motion solution can deliver personalized feeling of road effects naturally, as it's tied to telemetry and most motion created by software is probably based on suspension telemetry values, so car with stiff suspension will feel much different to soft suspension naturally. You can also then use profiles to make this distinction even more obvious. Motion solution like this with 10 cm of travel doesn't have limitations of tactile units.

Tactile limit with big units for bumps is around ~5 Hz lowest value and it can't simulate heave properly. It also relies on telemetry but due to tactile limitations it has to "fake" bump response. I noticed this especially with SSW road effects which generate always the same bump when suspension hits bump over some threshold and then it changes its volume based on how much the bump was stronger above set threshold (just my observation). Due to this basically every bump is same as the next one regardless of its real world shape / speed of the car. This can be mitigated by using several effects for bumps inside SSW to simulate small and big bumps, but it's limited. Also because of this, @Mr Latte you have to heavily rely on SSW effect customisation to match the car suspension (at least match your perception how stiff the suspension on that car should be), so the cars feel different. Don't take this wrong way, I believe you can get more of the SSW than anybody and it sure must feel great, but it requires tremendous amount of work and personalization, and also 8000$ worth of tacile gear or even more.

Simvibe at least use variable frenquency for bumps so one can get little bit different feel between cars, but it's still quite limited of what it can deliver. So personalization for different suspension types is also preferable. I have two basic setups and that's enough for me...

Don't get me wrong, I think tactile can fake road bumps quite nicely, but from what I seen from videos, especially this video demonstrate this perfectly:

I think the motion can deliver much more better and personalized road effects than tactile ever could. I think my tactile setup is quite advanced, at rare times the bumps occurs at exactly right time and then it feels like it mimicks the movement of the cockpit over bumps really closely as video above, but most of the time it's not perfect. But mainly it misses the heave element and acceleration of the whole body as in real car - the tactile response feels like localized bangs in certain body areas (which it ultimately is). It feels good, but what I see in videos seems much better.

The motion can deliver bump cues below 5 Hz of what tactile can do, it can go way below that. Also the installation is basically just like in car - actuators in place of suspension so even when you hit bump in car, the vibrations travel through chassis freely. Maybe it's more immersive to have the feeling of right bump on right pedal and left bump on left pedal, but not necessarily closer to reality.

I think the motion will replace most of the tactile work for bumps for me, but tactile will still might be valid as supplement for bumps, but it's great for other effects which it will be able to deliver more clearly when relieved of its hard work on road effects. For example wheel slip, gear change, engine, g-force effects etc.

These are just my personal assumptions with my experience with higher end tactile and from information I gathered around forums etc. regarding motion, so feel free to correct me. It would be best if we could get some insight from someone who has experience with higher level tactile and motion like @Magiashkii.

@Mr Latte I don't want to hijack this thread with some SSW vs SimVibe war, you asked for perception on how motion can deliver personalized feel to cars. This is my take on it based on my assumptions. Let's keep this conversation about motion vs tactile and motion + tactile and what it can bring to what the other one is missing.

Mr Latte · Oct 6, 2018

Indeed I dont want to take the discussion further into tactile more than it needs. The interest is in what THIS offers or that it can do that may be different. I have questioned this as I have not even seen the options it provides for tactile and claims being made.

To say it replaces the need for Simvibe may indeed be the case for some but not everyone wants the most advanced or best tactile or indeed wants to pay the money on the hardware to experience such.

I'm different in this respect as part of my own interest and hobby is farting about with it and taking it much further. I see some amazing potential with having not just a good motion rig but combining it with the best tactile too. Yet from what I have experienced, no I dont see this providing a single or ultimate solution. It may indeed replace the need for some effects and bring very good bump response.

As for tactile, I have probably monitored or compared the different options as much as anyone. If I want to monitor Simvibe with someone's settings compared to other options like using SSW with custom waveforms. With this I can see exactly what each are outputting 1-1 in realtime on every channel without having to second guess what they are doing with the frequencies, db or general operation for the tactile.

Having advanced ways to monitor the tactile has been very useful in the learning process I personally went through.

One aspect to keep in mind is that a single unit generating frequencies is always limited if you start trying to pile on multiple effects regardless of how strong it can output low frequencies or indeed if it supports upto 200Hz that was claimed.

A TST supports upto 800hz but really its silly numbers. Stating paper specs is not the same thing as how a unit performs with specific frequency ranges be it the energy it outputs or the detail it can maintain. I have tested single unit, dual role, triple role and even quad unit configs for the frequency range being used on a single channel to determine what brings the best combination in power and detail. I know at the moment with the best tactile hardware what brings the best performance in its combined output.

HoiHman · Oct 6, 2018

I totally agree with Michals post, which basically means that i'm not selling my buttkickers until i have fully explored all combos.

There's a lot of old love for my buttkickers since i was a simvibe beta tester

Rodney, as shown in the video by VSP you can add any effect supported by the telemetry output and add it to your profile. With the graph you can adjust the reaction of the actuators to that specified effect, but also the max travel ect ect ect...

The possibilities are endless.................

I have yet to explore those possibilities. Eventhough i made my first (short) test drive, my new rig is far from finished, so this will take some time.

Mr Latte · Oct 6, 2018

No offense but Mini BK or similar are not even close to the potential we can achieve, its like your stuck with those Logitech quality of tactile, err joking....

I certainly personally have experience as you know from the cheapest to the most expensive units for tactile. Reality of the situation, however, is that many peoples perspectives are going to be based on the Mini BK or similar level of tactile. So indeed what this motion solution brings in what it enables with regards controls of effects or effect options is interesting. Being more community focused or d.i.y approach it is unlikely going to be restricted in the same way a D-Box is.

With ButtKickers, the company themselves state that their biggest LFE is best for under 20Hz (suits movies) and the BK Concert has a stronger output at 40Hz (suits musical instruments). I have tested a seat using both operating together and combined also with a TST 429. So its going beyond using even a single big unit on a channel that Michal or others use.

This approach was aimed at seeking and bringing the strongest low end, the best midrange sensations and combined with the best general detailing possible with tactile. So what is happening in my own current ongoing build (with the seat) is that the frequencies normally going to a single unit are now split over 3 units each controlled via a crossover to limit what frequency range they operate in.

I wont go deep into details here (deserves its own thread in time) but this brings much more control of the output and detail when multiple effects are operating. Of course also much more power delivery too.

So the "seat" alones design/construction is to contain 5x large Buttkkickers and 3 TST units for the Rear and central back channels. It certainly from early tests does not lack in providing very strong effects be it in a Sim title, with an action based game or with consoles. My tactile is not limited to a motion rig but can be a wholesome part for most of my entertainment. This is one aspect that will appeal to some but not everyone.

In short the operating limitations of a single unit with multiple effects no longer become the factor and having separate units for the lowest bass and then midrange brings advantages as well in the potential control whilst keeping the 3rd unit as backup for general frequency response and details. Here the TST 429 for all out detail seems unrivaled but is hella expensive for a single unit. My ideas of tactile are clearly far beyond the norm but its what my own experimentation and interest has lead me to seek often, with a sense of adventure and creative methods to accomplish a more immersive experience.

I do not underestimate the power or energy this motion may bring, I already know what its like to have more power than needed but I am more focused on the quality output and how it copes with multiple effects.

AussieSim · Oct 7, 2018

Is anybody able to confirm as compatible any ballscrews, ballnuts or LMEK30UU that are different to the shopping list ?

As the shopping list ball nuts/lead screws don't ship outside europe, and the LMEK30UU are out of stock.

Thanks

Magiashkii · Oct 7, 2018

This thread is packed with great information... I'm glad to provide any additional information regarding tactile feedback with a dbox system and bass shakers. I still blend the two and I have found there is a difference with motion and motion with tactile feedback system like LFEs

Michal Burisin said:
I believe, that this motion solution can deliver personalized feeling of road effects naturally, as it's tied to telemetry and most motion created by software is probably based on suspension telemetry values, so car with stiff suspension will feel much different to soft suspension naturally. You can also then use profiles to make this distinction even more obvious. Motion solution like this with 10 cm of travel doesn't have limitations of tactile units.

Tactile limit with big units for bumps is around ~5 Hz lowest value and it can't simulate heave properly. It also relies on telemetry but due to tactile limitations it has to "fake" bump response. I noticed this especially with SSW road effects which generate always the same bump when suspension hits bump over some threshold and then it changes its volume based on how much the bump was stronger above set threshold (just my observation). Due to this basically every bump is same as the next one regardless of its real world shape / speed of the car. This can be mitigated by using several effects for bumps inside SSW to simulate small and big bumps, but it's limited. Also because of this, @Mr Latte you have to heavily rely on SSW effect customisation to match the car suspension (at least match your perception how stiff the suspension on that car should be), so the cars feel different. Don't take this wrong way, I believe you can get more of the SSW than anybody and it sure must feel great, but it requires tremendous amount of work and personalization, and also 8000$ worth of tacile gear or even more.

Simvibe at least use variable frenquency for bumps so one can get little bit different feel between cars, but it's still quite limited of what it can deliver. So personalization for different suspension types is also preferable. I have two basic setups and that's enough for me...

Don't get me wrong, I think tactile can fake road bumps quite nicely, but from what I seen from videos, especially this video demonstrate this perfectly:

I think the motion can deliver much more better and personalized road effects than tactile ever could. I think my tactile setup is quite advanced, at rare times the bumps occurs at exactly right time and then it feels like it mimicks the movement of the cockpit over bumps really closely as video above, but most of the time it's not perfect. But mainly it misses the heave element and acceleration of the whole body as in real car - the tactile response feels like localized bangs in certain body areas (which it ultimately is). It feels good, but what I see in videos seems much better.

The motion can deliver bump cues below 5 Hz of what tactile can do, it can go way below that. Also the installation is basically just like in car - actuators in place of suspension so even when you hit bump in car, the vibrations travel through chassis freely. Maybe it's more immersive to have the feeling of right bump on right pedal and left bump on left pedal, but not necessarily closer to reality.

I think the motion will replace most of the tactile work for bumps for me, but tactile will still might be valid as supplement for bumps, but it's great for other effects which it will be able to deliver more clearly when relieved of its hard work on road effects. For example wheel slip, gear change, engine, g-force effects etc.

These are just my personal assumptions with my experience with higher end tactile and from information I gathered around forums etc. regarding motion, so feel free to correct me. It would be best if we could get some insight from someone who has experience with higher level tactile and motion like @Magiashkii.

@Mr Latte I don't want to hijack this thread with some SSW vs SimVibe war, you asked for perception on how motion can deliver personalized feel to cars. This is my take on it based on my assumptions. Let's keep this conversation about motion vs tactile and motion + tactile and what it can bring to what the other one is missing.

metalnwood · Oct 7, 2018

AussieSim said:
Is anybody able to confirm as compatible any ballscrews, ballnuts or LMEK30UU that are different to the shopping list ?

As the shopping list ball nuts/lead screws don't ship outside europe, and the LMEK30UU are out of stock.

Thanks

I have just recently bought some items from a few different places over the last couple of days. I got the linear bearings from here
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-LMK30...462113?hash=item3f6467c5e1:g:UaYAAOSwQupXV4m0

They will be 4mm shorter but it should not make any difference. I also got the ball screws from here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antibackla...hash=item33d5d5beb4:m:mP8VibuPKo59d2cuIXoRODw

Going by the cost of the ones in germany they wont be any better quality than these, imo - they are not marked as a recognised brand from memory.