Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[MADasFUDGE]

Another vote against four corner/chassis mode.
Much better placing them on the seat and pedal plate

I already have a Buttkicker Gamer2 on the seat (mounting bracket from the NLR Motion Platform V3). Would you suggest replacing it?

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Can anyone maybe explain what would be a optimal tactile experience? Putting focus on where to mount things...

From you suggestions I understood the following:
- 1 big shaker (LFE) under the pedal plate. The mounting is a big blank in my mind, since you guys said rigid mounting is out of the question;
- 2 smaller shakers on the seat/rear of the cockpit. Still no idea how that would be mounted.
- and I should remove my buttkicker gamer2.

Did I get it right?

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Isn't there a system that is somewhat like a D-BOX but only for haptics and not so expensive?

What if I use some kind isolator like the one from racebass to lift the whole cockpit and then use 4 shakers (mini lfe) on the corners to achieve the feeling I want from the car wheels/suspension?

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Race Base plate is to mount TST and BK's The seat mounts directly to the plate. The brackets mount to the chassis and isolation goes between. It can 1-2 TST's and 1-4 BK LFE/CT's.

I'm running an NX4-6000 and it does not need to be bridged. I'm driving a TST-429 front and back and a BK CT front and back off mine.

You are correct that the plate and brackets do not work with an NLRv3. I created a solution for my NLRv3 that works very well. So far one other person has set his rig up using the same solution. I have STL files that can be used for templates that can be used to create these mounts out of angle aluminum an a piece of aluminum bar if you have machining skills.

Otherwise I found that I got decent tactile response mounting my TST to the side and BK behind. There is enough slop in the universal joint to allow for effects to work reasonably well.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Shaking the whole chassis is not the answer. Isolating the seat and pedal deck works much better.

Don't be scared by this, but here is my current tactile solution for the NLRv3 and like I said I have a simpler solution to mount the transducers up to the seat bracket and use the slop in the universal joint fairly well.

I created these mounts for isolation that bolt up to the NLRv3.

The Seat brackets bolt to plates that are bolted to the isolators.

The TST mounts to the front plate and the BK mounts to the back.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

I'm running an NX4-6000 and it does not need to be bridged. I'm driving a TST-429 front and back and a BK CT front and back off mine.

Do you run 2x TST and 2xBK out of the NX4-6000?

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Shaking the whole chassis is not the answer. Isolating the seat and pedal deck works much better.

Don't be scared by this, but here is my current tactile solution for the NLRv3 and like I said I have a simpler solution to mount the transducers up to the seat bracket and use the slop in the universal joint fairly well.

Don't you add considerable movement (flex/wobble) to both pedals and seat doing this? I remember Barry cursing minimal flex on any piece of hardware he could get his hands on. Especially the seat will have an added momentum that theoretically must be detrimental to the NLRv3 experience. It will "lag" considerably.

And too late, I am scared already. I read people saying this is a rabbit whole. Nobody said the size of that rabbit :O


Maybe one other question. Why do you have both a TST and a BK CT on the same size? Do they cover different frequencies? What can one do better than the other to justify having both?

 

[MADasFUDGE]

View attachment 564056

Why cutting through the seat?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Do you run 2x TST and 2xBK out of the NX4-6000?

Yes.

Don't you add considerable movement (flex/wobble) to both pedals and seat doing this? I remember Barry cursing minimal flex on any piece of hardware he could get his hands on. Especially the seat will have an added momentum that theoretically must be detrimental to the NLRv3 experience. It will "lag" considerably.

And too late, I am scared already. I read people saying this is a rabbit whole. Nobody said the size of that rabbit :O


Maybe one other question. Why do you have both a TST and a BK CT on the same size? Do they cover different frequencies? What can one do better than the other to justify having both?

There is not any wobble I can feel.

There are two reasons to have more than one transducer on each side.
1. As you guessed the BK and TST have complementary frequency ranges. The BK is for impacts 10-30Hz and the TST has more range from about 55-150Hz.
2. You can saturate a transducer so that one effect covers up another effect. Running them at lower volumes and running more of them allows for much better tactile effects.

Why cutting through the seat?

I was enlarging the hole for my anti-submarine belts. It was pointless. I ended up running a 6 point harness and ran the anti-submarine belts from the sides under my legs.

The reason for the anti-submarine belts is to provide an anchor for my G-Belt which pulls the harness tight while braking. It also pulls each shoulder belt separately for cornering effects.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

@RCHeliguy ,

Thank you for the explanations.
Would you mind posting some pictures of the mounting you did for the TST and BK on the pedals?

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RCHeliguy ,

Thank you for the explanations.
Would you mind posting some pictures of the mounting you did for the TST and BK on the pedals?

My Pedal solution may not be very helpful for two reasons.

1. My pedal deck is inverted.
2. My building constraints were to fit in space dictated by having flight pedals in my rig directly under my pedal deck. So I have a two level transducer mount.

It would be much easier for most people to isolate their pedal deck in a simple way with the transducers simply hanging below them.

I welded this up from scratch.

This shows the previous gen foot plate isolation in aluminum and some of the rest of this.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

I already have a Buttkicker Gamer2 on the seat (mounting bracket from the NLR Motion Platform V3). Would you suggest replacing it?

No, what´s more, keep it there AND add up more shakers or exciters

 

[MADasFUDGE]

Can anybody say if 2x TST329 for 716€ is a good price? That is the only one I could find in Germany. It is from ebay sent from the US, used items.

Clark Synthesis TST329 Gold Transducer - Black online kaufen | eBay

Entdecken Sie Clark Synthesis TST329 Gold Transducer - Black in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

Very hard to find any hardware that you guys recommended here.

 

[blekenbleu]

First, you are already getting advice from others on implementing "advanced tactile";
I will address your other questions.

Maybe I should go back a few steps and ask different questions:
- What is the point of a advanced tactile (anything more than the Buttkicker Gamer2 I already have) experience if I can't simulate the vibration of the car on the 4 points of suspension? This is a real question, not throwing any punches at you guys.

What is the point of any tactile? What is your motivation?
Two possible motivations:
* better feedback to help drive better
* more immersion (AKA entertainment)
While those goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive, some implementations could be.

- Won't 4 pucks in the seat feel weird?

Adults racing cars or pretending to race cars by computer is arguably weird.
Whether 4 pucks in a seat cushion feel weird depends very much on tactile signals sent to them.

Can't tell the vibration originated so close to you?

If those signals are distinct enough to let you know which wheel is slipping,
that will feel unrealistic. However, it can help compensate for lack of real yaw forces,
and even someone as unathletic as myself
can fairly quickly learn to get comfortable with that substitution.

And can I do it on my Sparco Grid-Q? I don't want to ruin the seat.

Those pucks can be in a separate pad on any existing seat without modification.
See Sim Racing Studio ShakeSeat

- Wouldn't a speaker system be a completely different approach?

No.

And can you even tell where sound is coming from considering
we are talking of very low frequencies?

We are NOT talking about subaudible frequencies.
Tire squeal is not called squeal arbitrarily; it involves frequencies that are quite directional.
It becomes less audibly directional as tire slip progresses from squeal to moan to judder.
As I already indicated, pucks are capable of clearly reproducing tire squeal frequencies;
speakers would help on systems using bass shakers.
Alternatively, to avoid distracting other residents, consider surround headphones.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Very hard to find any hardware that you guys recommended here.

Try here

Thomann - Welkom thuis!

Ontdek alles over muziekinstrumenten, studio-apparatuur, verlichting en PA-apparatuur – de meest populaire merken, betaalbare alternatieven en vele kosteloze extra's voor muzikanten.

www.thomann.de

Search for 'buttkicker' and you'll find all the LFE and mini-LFE versions (both regular and CT)
They also carry all the Behringer amps, but stock levels are lower than they were a few years ago. You can get cables as well, if needed.

I purchased my amp and BKs from them and had no complaints re pricing, shipping, etc.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

First, you are already getting advice from others on implementing "advanced tactile";
I will address your other questions.

What is the point of any tactile? What is your motivation?
Two possible motivations:
* better feedback to help drive better
* more immersion (AKA entertainment)
While those goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive, some implementations could be.

Thanks for taking the time to answer me.
I think I should detail my question a little bit further.

The motivations for tactile in general are fine with me. Those are the same reasons I am looking into it.
My question goes to what kind of signal/feeling can be reproduced with tactile that is actually realistic and will help my feeling while driving.
I would prefer starting with the signal/feelings that feel most realistic rather than training my brain with something that (at first impression) seem a little weird to me.

I entered this quest thinking I would put 4 shakers, 1 on each corner and get realistic ROAD TEXTURE and TIRE SLIP/LOCK. I thought having the vibration originate at the right place would be all that is needed for realistic wheel and suspension simulation. The consensus here however, is that stereo feedback (left and right) is not possible. So I am trying to understand what are the possibilities so I can better choose where to invest.
The suggestions here go far above what I at first intended to spend. The builds from the pros here are really complex and rely very strongly on diy... so I want to get the most I can right the first time.

 

[MADasFUDGE]

I am thinking of starting now with 1x NX3000D and 2x BK CT.
The next step would be adding another 1x NX3000D and 2x
TST329.

I will take my buttkicker gamer2 out and use the fixation point from it to install a custom metal plate for the rear BK. And I am looking into options to isolate my pedal plate. I will try building something myself with industry shake absorbers.

Does that seem like a good idea? Can the amp handle that?

Cheers!

 

[cnhoff]

I am thinking of starting now with 1x NX3000D and 2x BK CT.
The next step would be adding another 1x NX3000D and 2x
TST329.

I will take my buttkicker gamer2 out and use the fixation point from it to install a custom metal plate for the rear BK. And I am looking into options to isolate my pedal plate. I will try building something myself with industry shake absorbers.

Does that seem like a good idea? Can the amp handle that?

Cheers!

Going with two CTs/LFEs for pedals and seat and a NX3000D is an excellent setup. I also used that combo for quite some time, before investing more money. An easy way forward would be to have 2 plates (plywood, Al), put seat/pedals on top of that and isolate those plates with your weapon of choice. If you don't want to diy, the Simtag RB stuff would be a good choice.

 

[anton_Chez]

I would get one of each first, Concert / LFE and a TST. That way you have the full spectrum of hz available to you from the outset. Get them both on the seat. I would also not bother buying 2 amps, if your intention is 4 units, get the NX4-6000 which is what I should have done.

 

[cnhoff]

Without TSTs you will lose some quality on mid freq. stuff like kerbs, without the pedals you will miss out on any pedals effects. Although i of course agree the seat is the more important area, i personally would not want to miss out anymore on the pedals. That changed for me though only after a better choice of effects and improving isolation. The LFE/CT is also not exactly bad on kerbs...personal preference i guess.