Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

In real car, is there really anything coming through the pedals besides ABS pulsation and locking/unlocking with non ABS ones?

I seriously doubt you would feel that through the pedals, but you might feel things from your heels on the floor.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

In all honesty, I am not so sure, not in a street car. May be full racing spec car, stiff suspension, with metal, carpet less floor pan it's different, but with thick absorbing rubber heels as only contact point even there it might be under pronounced.

 

[blekenbleu]

In real car, is there really anything coming through the pedals besides ABS pulsation and locking/unlocking with non ABS ones

Sure, particularly in cars with manual disc brakes and particularly on snow and ice.
When wheels lock, the brake pedal goes "dead".
Prior to that, there would be minor vibrations, e.g. from disc runout,
which are strongest when pads just begin to touch discs.
I simulate that with SimHub and a DAEX30HESF-4 on the pedal back,
since it provides useful feedback before lockup.

On dry pavement, increased pedal force decreases foot sensitivity to real brake pedal feedback.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Nothing like actual experience! I know that my rig can trick my brain into thinking things are real, but I'm sure much of that is because I don't have a good real world comparison or at least not one that is recent enough for me draw a good comparison.

We all adapt and learn to interpret different sensations over time such that they feel normal or even right to us. If you are happy with what you are feeling and are having fun, you will eventually learn to pull what you can from whatever you are feeling.

I don't think that there is a right or wrong way to do this unless you are training to race in real life.

I noticed that Jimmy Broadbent has been transitioning to real racing pretty well. His rig didn't have motion or appear to have transducers. Now he sometimes uses a very specialized team provided rig to train on that is supposed to help reproduce the dynamics of the specific car that he is going to race. I am curious what the priorities are for a rig like that.

Through countless hours of simming he has learned to read the track well. He did spend time Karting, but it appeared that he advanced relatively quickly. When he drove the ring in real life the co-driver seemed a bit surprised at how well Jimmy handled the car, but also said that he thought many of the better sim racers could transition over.

 

[Mr Latte]

Interesting. findings and comments on wheel slip ......

@Peter Winkler
Hows wheel slip, sensations been feeling for you recently

Are they:
A) Satisfying in feedback and dynamic range?
B) Independent for front & rear wheels?
C) Great addition to motion?
D) Helping to improve lap times?

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Sure, particularly in cars with manual disc brakes and particularly on snow and ice.
When wheels lock, the brake pedal goes "dead".
Prior to that, there would be minor vibrations, e.g. from disc runout,
which are strongest when pads just begin to touch discs.
I simulate that with SimHub and a DAEX30HESF-4 on the pedal back,
since it provides useful feedback before lockup.

All of which is to say, "not really" ... or not in most meaningful situations.

Wheel lock on an asphalt track is heard, not felt through the pedals. The pedal only goes "dead" when all 4 wheels lock. Things are LONG over at that point.

Sure there's a little pulsing from run-out...but, only at times when I couldn't care less...ie, very light pedal. Under a heavy pedal, prior to lockup....nope----not unless there is something seriously wrong (warped rotor, or major pad build-up). Even if there is a bit of pulsing, its proportional to SPEED, not braking pressure, g-load, or tire-slip. So, its not a very useful indicator anyway.

The sensation used ON TRACK to determine threshold, is G-load and sound Its having that fine sense of when that load is exactly as much as the tire can handle. There is very little to hear or feel from the tire/brakes themselves, until its too late. Its also listening for *a* wheel to start to lock, and knowing what g-load that happened at, and backing off a hair on the next lap.

 

[Mr Latte]

Without saying too much, based on my own Simhub experiences / testing:

Wheelslip is not restricted to only braking, it is representing the slip of the wheels,.
Be this from understeer, oversteer, high acceleration, or deceleration scenarios
So why are most of you are focusing, mainly on "brake" scenarios?

The slip is giving you the opportunity to feel "tyre slip" to improve traction and lap time.
Front and Rear slip need to be represented to have improved feedback of the car's movements.

Adding G-Load with slip can give you an additional sense of feel representing the body/chassis of the car moving under load combined with the slip of the tyre. Be this understeer and veering off track or oversteer and lighting up the rear wheels, causing traction loss and the backend of the car stepping out.

We do not even need to have a per-wheel slip to achieve effective and satisfying sensations.

The operation, quality of the effects and how well their frequencies are represented are key. Ideally, you need something beyond basic tones. With effects that bring more convincing sensations to the driver and especially for real race drivers to connect better with the felt sensations generated. They want to be able to "tune in" to the generated feel of slip and learn to use it, to improve lap times.

Wheelock is providing slip and lock in regards to braking and is more related to what it seems some of you are discussing.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

We discussed both. The point was that in real car you cannot feel slip through your feet.

 

[RCHeliguy]

We discussed both. The point was that in real car you cannot feel slip through your feet.

What is the difference between that and wanting FFB that gives you more information than a real car gives you through the steering wheel ?

We have both made comments that simrig will never be accurate and that we are trying to feel additional information that is missing in other ways.

So I would argue that tactile can be whatever you want it to be if you like it and it gives you information that you otherwise wouldn't have.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I don't think there is any argument that lots of things in simulation are exaggeration of a real life, FFB with SOTP effects is a prime example.
But it this case the recommendation that you want transducers under the pedals as it feels more "realistic" just does not apply, as you do not get these forces there in real life.
Yes, you can have transducers there for better "immersion", but not "realism".
I would even suggest that having them under the seat can actually makes it closer to real car driving scenario.

 

[Mr Latte]

I don't think there is any argument that lots of things in simulation are exaggeration of a real life, FFB with SOTP effects is a prime example.
But it this case the recommendation that you want transducers under the pedals as it feels more "realistic" just does not apply, as you do not get these forces there in real life.
Yes, you can have transducers there for better "immersion", but not "realism".
I would even suggest that having them under the seat can actually makes it closer to real car driving scenario.

We discussed both. The point was that in real car you cannot feel slip through your feet.

Excuse me , the point is we are talking about simulation and simulators. Placing exciters to pedals or pedal base will have limitations in what it can achieve.

Too often the “immersion” term is overused. However for sim racing the key is having effect sensations that are convincing, engrossing and satisfying for the purpose each effects operational role is.

 

[blekenbleu]

the recommendation that you want transducers under the pedals
as it feels more "realistic" just does not apply,
as you do not get these forces there in real life.

Sigh. I offered an example to which some, if not most, could hopefully relate.
Many of the real life and all of the track cars that I have owned
provided useful feedback thru the brake pedal,
including the CR-X del Sol VTEC that I still drive.

Many modern street vehicles have poor brake pedal feedback short of ABS,
but at least our Prius has the excuse that most of its braking is regenerative.
Back in the day, my favorite daily driver was a 1967 Alfa GTV,
but only after removing its vacuum brake servo.
Thin soles in driving shoes are not just a weight savings.

The primary feedback I got thru heels in track cars was heat.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Excuse me , the point is we are talking about simulation and simulators.

This is how discussion started, I know you were late and not really participated thus confusion.

In real car, is there really anything coming through the pedals besides ABS pulsation and locking/unlocking with non ABS ones?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Sigh. I offered an example to which some, if not most, could hopefully relate.
Many of the real life and all of the track cars that I have owned
provided useful feedback thru the brake pedal,
including the CR-X del Sol VTEC that I still drive.

Many modern street vehicles have poor brake pedal feedback short of ABS,
but at least our Prius has the excuse that most of its braking is regenerative.
Back in the day, my favorite daily driver was a 1967 Alfa GTV,
but only after removing its vacuum brake servo.
Thin soles in driving shoes are not just a weight savings.

The primary feedback I got thru heels in track cars was heat.

I agree on brakes, this is what I suggested originally, but there is nothing else.

 

[RCHeliguy]

A rig is a reflection of the priorities of the owner. For that reason and because it is a simulation, I think the issue is how best to transmit data to the driver who is not in a real car.

I have some areas on my rig that are a bit extreme and others that some would find lacking depending on what they consider important and it doesn't matter to me if someone doesn't find my particular solution or preference to their liking.

I like feeling when the front wheels are starting to slide under my front feet. I consider it useful information on "my" rig.

OTOH I like feeling the engine kick over and then go into a lumpy idle and then basically disappear once it is at higher rpm. Others put a lot of effort into an involving engine feel which is great for people who care about that particular aspect.

The same goes for bumps. I want to feel the curbs and rumble strips. Motion and FFB do a great job on the curbs and tactile matters more on the rumble strips. I don't mind feeling expansion joints, but I don't want to feel the road a lot while I'm driving unless I'm on gravel in Rally. Personal preferences are just that.

 

[Mr Latte]

This is how discussion started, I know you were late and not really participated thus confusion.

Not for me, the relevance in my post is from a discussion on how a user was unimpressed with certain effects used on their pedal tray via an exciter. Then discussion brought up wheel slip element and you wanted to trail off into the "real world" scenarios of what can or can't be felt in pedals. I made reference that slip is not just about the front wheels or brakes.

In real car, is there really anything coming through the pedals besides ABS pulsation and locking/unlocking with non ABS ones?

So Andrew. let me ask you for our simulators, should we not bother applying felt slip sensations, g-loads or other effects like speed curving via tactile to pedals?

What frequencies should a convincing wheelsip effect use or be combined with other effects that would please a real race car driver or semi-serious track day racer thats also into simulators? Or in your view, is that even possible?

In fairness, Ive yet to see, even any pro-level simulator that can be bought offer such.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

May be you had some other "conversation" going on, my reply was to stigs2cousin post as seems like we have similar experience with pedal mounted transducers.

 

[Mr Latte]

May be you had some other "conversation" going on, my reply was to stigs2cousin post as seems like we have similar experience with pedal mounted transducers.

Well then, perhaps you should put more effort into trying to resolve the issue or determine the reasons why that is? I didn't see anything mentioned or shown by anyone, about relevant factors.
Like effects settings, how the units are installed, the isolation that may contribute to improving things.

Sure, but let's talk about real car scenarios and then avoid direct questions aimed at ourselves relating to actual simulation and tactile.

Wonderfull Andrew, oh and thanks for your valuable input.

 

[LeeHetherington]

Someone’s is bigger than some else’s…

 

[Peter Winkler]

Interesting. findings and comments on wheel slip ......

@Peter Winkler
Hows wheel slip, sensations been feeling for you recently

Are they:
A) Satisfying in feedback and dynamic range?
B) Independent for front & rear wheels?
C) Great addition to motion?
D) Helping to improve lap times?

@Mr Latte and others
let me give a short answer

A) Satisfying in feedback and dynamic range?
YES - amazing what happend to my rig - its so different - 2 things i have to underline - i learned that they are key to success
1) isolation - without even the big BK LFE does not move my heavy rig
2) multi layer effect - like the aston martin multi rpm profile

B) Independent for front & rear wheels?
yes this works - i have the first good results, feeling understeer and oversteer at the right place - still i have issues with my front unit. rear i have already what is needed - front upgrade missing, hence losing many infos and power.

C) Great addition to motion?
not sure if we can tell this any longer ADDITION - after my 100h of testing (yes i spent this in the last 4 weeks - can show my ACC times ) i think tactile has the power to be the better immersion solution - i do not want to miss motion and i personally belive the combination will bring the BIG WOW.

D) Helping to improve lap times?
for sure - but we need to stay calm with effects - in my first 50h i was a volume junkie - had everything close to clipping power - this made me oversensated and slower at racing - now i start to lower the effect volume and be able to run with min needed power - that allows me to do 80min races and gives me the chance to be faster - especialy slip is a key effect. also road infos like vibration and rumble are great items to be combine with motion and effects to be better at the track. last but not least i like to mention RPM - until my tactile journey i had to rely on sound and REV lights - now my TST tells my body to shift - like in a real car - and this helps a lot

Overall i am super happy - Tactile needs more time in understanding and implementation - BUT as soon you are in this topic - you get something you did not expect.

BTW - i had this week 2 race drivers reviewing my new setup - feedback i shared above came partly from them - without tactile those guys do not really like sims - but as soon i activated my tactile power house - they hyped

@Mr Latte many thanks for your work within this threat - just amazing

Peter