Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Myke The Killer]

Your BK Mini struggles with frequencies that are below 35hz. There is an issue with these units referred to as "piston pang" and it is heard as a metallic knocking sound if gain is high enough with frequencies under 35hz. The lowest and deepest tone you'll find you'll get from these units is around 38hz before running into issues.

Thank you very much for your reply, I'll try to work above 38hz as suggested. really appreciate it, Thanks

 

[anton_Chez]

You can go below 38hz you just really need to manage the gain when it gets that low. Which, if you have some sort of DSP on your amp, would not be much of an issue. For me I run mine on little SMSL amps and they are great for what they are but they are basically feature-less and the easiest way around the issue while not sacrificing the rest of the range, is simply avoid putting any effects below 38hZ.

 

[anton_Chez]

OK @Mr Latte, I've finally had a chance to give the new engine profiles a go. I don't have a lot of detail to go into yet but I did do some quick comparisons between a few of them and have noted some thoughts on my desktop to pass on to you:


"Mr Latte 2021 Race Department RPM Test"

V1 profile: Preferred out of the 3

V2 profile: Second preferred, had to lower overall volume slider, and is very active across the whole rev range which I don't really like especially when using other effects like suspension.

V3 profile: Least favourite, barely used it, very buzzy at idle and feels the least dynamic across the entire range

"ASTON MARTIN AMR V8 VANTAGE GT3 2020 -
(Tested On Earthquake Sound - MQB1 Mini Quake)"

Feels pretty good, have not changed any volumes at all apart from main slider to cater for time of use. Similar to V1 profile above.

So for the tests, I did not change anything AT ALL. Not volumes of effects, not frequencies, nothing. I only adjusted the overall gain slider for Simhub to cater for how each profile felt and for the time of day / night.

The biggest takeaway I had from the comparisons was that for the ones that I preferred, they at no time annoyed me, made me feel like I wanted to turn something down / off, or get in the way of my driving. They felt natural, and contributed something to the experience. They were better than what I am using currently from the previous recent engine effects but with those I did do a lot of tinkering to get them to a level I was happy with on the new unit.

I think it's safe to say that one of those 2 I listed above as my favourite will be incorporated into my main profile when I get a chance to shuffle everything around. I am yet to try the downshift blip effect, might do that tonight but wanted to give some first impressions that might help you in between the time I am unable to test and provide more feedback.

Another thing I have realised is that the vibration I was getting from the new unit and seat mounting position was mainly coming from the way I had re routed the VR headset cable through the harness cut outs. For the longest time I've had it going through the left hole, when facing forward in the seat. I moved it to the right one in the hope of having less restricted movement with the G1 breakaway connector always being a hassle. It did slightly improve the movement inhibition, but it also was severely affected by the tactile in this position. I think the cable is actually reverberating the energy into the headset and thus into my VR view. It could be from the seat shaking or actually from the unit itself touching the cable in the new position. Either way, I put it back to where it was when I did not notice this issue and it seems to have fixed it for the most part.

Just something for you guys to think about who have mentioned the same issue I was having recently.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you for taking the time and offering your response.
Using only Simhub's "Global Volume" (which is the soundcards output) is limiting your own ability to customise the effect more. The application of using harmonically matched frequencies while not necessary for all does seem to work well for building better engine effects. Yet I can change the feel by sing different fundamental frequencies so this shared effort is only an example of potential and to see how people either do or do not like it.

You should however feel free to adjust the slider volumes for each effect layer as this can change the output mix of the overall effects. You may want stronger/weaker low-end or stronger high-end rpm. So yeah I would like to get an idea of what way you like the volumes for V1 using the Mini Quake.

How would you set the volumes or compare the Mini LFE to the Mini Quake for these?

Layer Volumes:
It's possible to maybe find a setting that helps you enjoy more one of the other options and this is one of the benefits with multilayers. However, I also want to avoid having too many layers to manage.

You will find you can get better detailing by placing engine-based effects as they are so constant on units more for that purpose/role. If trying to have additional effects then it can all become a bit much. That is why V3 uses fewer layers as it may not give just as good RPM sensations but it might work better with other effects all outputting on the same unit.

Going Even Further:
I have additional engines I am working on that also include SPEED for engine immersion.
Simvibe was greatly restricted with its SPEED as it was limited to a wind noise sensation with little control.

So what I am doing with SPEED is also creating background ENGINE sensations that work with the car's RPM layers. I have found a way to implement it for 3 usage cases and these can be applied to bring better and variations to car-specific profiles.

• Low RPM Torque surge (lower speeds 1-2nd gear)
• Peak RPM Surge (eg: upper 4th gear onwards)
• Max Velocity (Increasing engine strain as the car reaches its top speed)

 

[RacingMat]

Ampli Behringer MX300D

I didn't found any specs... are you sure of the reference?

@anton_Chez : if the D in the amp reference stands for Parametric EQ, the pang pb should not be a pb eventually

 

[anton_Chez]

You should however feel free to adjust the slider volumes for each effect layer as this can change the output mix of the overall effects. You may want stronger/weaker low-end or stronger high-end rpm. So yeah I would like to get an idea of what way you like the volumes for V1 using the Mini Quake.

Yeah I will look into that more as I get more time to spend tweaking it and molding it to my liking and also to make best use of the units I have. I simply wanted to give an out of the box baseline feedback in case there was something you were looking for out of them. It's not that I won't go further into making the final profile better, just that to date I haven't had a good amount of time to dedicate to it and also I wasn't sure how much I should play with before offering an opinion.

The volumes I have are weird. I have the EQ unit in bridged mode, basically at full power running off the NX1000D, or at least, I've capped it to full power. I'm not sure how much power is actually getting to the unit but for the purpose of what I need, there is enough feel there to not worry. However, comparing to the output of the Mini LFE's, one channel each on the 160W SMSL amp, I run the EQ at 100% volume in Simhub, and the Mini LFE rear at 45% mounted to seat, and front Mini LFE mounted under pedal tray at 75%. For some reason, the Mini LFE's seem to give too much energy at anywhere near 100% but the EQ unit does not seem overbearing at 100%. This is an overall assessment, not particularly for the profiles you've uploaded to test. But the same does apply to them. I do not run the Mini LFE with engine vibes at all, I keep them on the EQ unit and have them do other things. I can however move the effects over and test them out to see how they compare. It should be a fairly like for like comparison since one Mini LFE and the EQ unit are both attached to the seat directly.

I did turn the dial down on the amp to around 12 oclock. I had it on 1oclock but with it that high I had some constant noise coming through the unit when in sim, but not on the track. Getting out of the sim entirely made the feedback disappear, but it got annoying so I decided to knock it down a notch and it fixed it.

Will attempt to spend a bit more time on it over the coming weekend and next week.

 

[Myke The Killer]

I didn't found any specs... are you sure of the reference?

@anton_Chez : if the D in the amp reference stands for Parametric EQ, the pang pb should not be a pb eventually

You are right sorry, , the name is Behringer NX3000D Thanks

 

[Myke The Killer]

You can go below 38hz you just really need to manage the gain when it gets that low. Which, if you have some sort of DSP on your amp, would not be much of an issue. For me I run mine on little SMSL amps and they are great for what they are but they are basically feature-less and the easiest way around the issue while not sacrificing the rest of the range, is simply avoid putting any effects below 38hZ.

Thanks for your rely, much appreciated!... I understand what you mean, and this is my main concern, how can I know which frequency under 38hz I need to reduce the volume? Maybe I should have a sort of visualization of the frequency response of my Mini LFE but I don't know how to do that.... or maybe there is a best practice to analyze these frequencies? Thanks

 

[Myke The Killer]

Thanks for your rely, much appreciated!... I understand what you mean, and this is my main concern, how can I know which frequency under 38hz I need to reduce the volume? Maybe I should have a sort of visualization of the frequency response of my Mini LFE but I don't know how to do that.... or maybe there is a best practice to analyze these frequencies? Thanks

sorry... I wanted to say "reply"

 

[RacingMat]

Thanks for your rely, much appreciated!... I understand what you mean, and this is my main concern, how can I know which frequency under 38hz I need to reduce the volume? Maybe I should have a sort of visualization of the frequency response of my Mini LFE but I don't know how to do that.... or maybe there is a best practice to analyze these frequencies? Thanks

You have to send a signal for each frequency manually and adjust the gain in the Parametric EQ application of the NX3000D using a signal generator :
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

you can have a look there:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/tactile-upgrading-my-tactile-setup-with-dsp.197781/
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/tactile-tutorial-simhub-equalizer-apo-peace-wip.197876/

 

[anton_Chez]

ALL frequencies below 38hz should have the gain reduced or avoided completely.

If you're using Simhub you'll know what hz you are using for any effect.

 

[Maximmess]

I need some advice please...

I'm trying to decide what tactile setup to buy. I've started out with the budget setup below, just to put a toe in the water and frankly, its not working that well for me. I have a P1-X rig, with the fullsize rubber feet, so its isolated from the floor and allows a little "shake" etc. However, I can barely feel an effect with the transducer screwed to the back of my rig. So, now I want to do it properly and get some better equipment and locate the transducers in a better place.

First question I have, is if my ultimate goal is to get a 4 shaker system, should I get myself a 4+ channel amplifier? or buy two 2 channel amplifiers? I'm guessing, if I buy a dedicated internal sound card, it might be better to hook it up to single 4-channel amp , one soundcard (5.1) and 4 transducers. Having experimented as below, I want to get it right next time!

Second question is, Buttkicker Mini LFE, Buttkicker Advance or something else? (I'll start with 2 transducers to begin with, front and back)

Current setup:


Bluetooth Amplifier Board Hifi Stereo 2.0 TPA3116D2 2X100W Audio Amplifier Module Bass and Treble Control Digital Power Amplifier Circuit Bluetooth 5.




Dayton Audio TT25-16 PUCK Tactile Transducer Mini Bass Shaker 16 Ohm (Black)




Vention 3.5mm External USB Sound Card usb adapter usb audio Adapter card



SHNITPWR 24V DC Power Supply 24 Volt 5A 120W Power Adapter 100V~240V AC to DC Converter

Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[anton_Chez]

So a further update for Mr Latte on the new engine profiles.

I played around with the v3 profile. I reduced the volume to around 25% for the Idle effect and also reduced the max rpm effects to around 40%. I tried increasing the torque detailer effect because I felt a bit of a hole in the mid range in some gears, but it didn't seem to make a difference in this specific area. However, the overall effect was MUCH improved than before and I used it for a good amount of time without wanting to turn it off so that's a good sign. It is different to v1 and I am going to play with v2 next. Then compare them all back to back.

I am only changing volumes. I think it's pointless to change the effects themselves as this defeats the purpose of the exercise.

One thing that I find weird is that with the base / high frequency effect of the effect, especially at idle, is the high effect is very dominant. So for v3 with the idle effect being 7hz/77hz, I only get the 77hz which gives the buzz feeling. It's quite high compared to most other idle effect frequencies. Turning the effect down made it more believable and much less annoying. Just wonder how that part of the effects actually work.

 

[Mr Latte]

So a further update for Mr Latte on the new engine profiles.

I played around with the v3 profile. I reduced the volume to around 25% for the Idle effect and also reduced the max rpm effects to around 40%. I tried increasing the torque detailer effect because I felt a bit of a hole in the mid range in some gears, but it didn't seem to make a difference in this specific area. However, the overall effect was MUCH improved than before and I used it for a good amount of time without wanting to turn it off so that's a good sign. It is different to v1 and I am going to play with v2 next. Then compare them all back to back.

I am only changing volumes. I think it's pointless to change the effects themselves as this defeats the purpose of the exercise.

One thing that I find weird is that with the base / high frequency effect of the effect, especially at idle, is the high effect is very dominant. So for v3 with the idle effect being 7hz/77hz, I only get the 77hz which gives the buzz feeling. It's quite high compared to most other idle effect frequencies. Turning the effect down made it more believable and much less annoying. Just wonder how that part of the effects actually work.

Thanks man, yes the idea with this approach (as its only a test example) is to let people be able to adjust the different effect layer volumes to alter the output. I think I am well on top of now making good RPM sensations. I also have new research done with SPEED to combine with RPM and made a few new findings with a different approach but again incorporating multiple layers for different output sensations. Having "Light Bass" and "Deep Bass" individually applied to BK and TST or Exciters. It seems the approach that is bringing me the best results.

Back to the V1 V2 V3 test engines
The shared test uses a fundamental of 7Hz and then additional harmonic layers (multiples of 7s) to maintain a more musical balance. We can apply different frequencies to some layers but if you mess with this, then it can introduce knocking or other odd elements to the feel.

You are not feeling the full energy with the 7Hz so thats a shame as your still missing a lot of thick/depth. We could alter that to 14Hz which maintains the harmonic flow but thats an entirely different feeling sensation to 7Hz. We just can substitute it to get the desired feel on lesser tactile.

My advice to anyone wanting improved tactile is to seek to install at least 1x Large BK.
You have the amp and when we combine the benefits of the DSP we can feel from 2Hz. These lowest frequencies are needed for certain felt sensations.

Trust me, I have been experimenting with effects like wheelslip and G-forces, and having under 10Hz with strong energy is a vital ingredient for the best-felt sensations.

 

[anton_Chez]

I kind of regret seeing the EQ unit mentioned in forums. I had a restocked BK LFE in my cart from Parts Express and I backed out of it. Was a good deal too. $280 USD or something like that when they retail for around $400. I might have another look around and see if I can find one. I will then have 4 ! units again, with a lot more power than the first time I had 4 units which were the Aura bass shakers.

I'll keep an eye out and maybe off load the MQB-1, or keep it and do something else with it. It's getting kind of cramped on the seat now!

 

[Mr Latte]

I kind of regret seeing the EQ unit mentioned in forums. I had a restocked BK LFE in my cart from Parts Express and I backed out of it. Was a good deal too. $280 USD or something like that when they retail for around $400. I might have another look around and see if I can find one. I will then have 4 ! units again, with a lot more power than the first time I had 4 units which were the Aura bass shakers.

I'll keep an eye out and maybe off load the MQB-1, or keep it and do something else with it. It's getting kind of cramped on the seat now!

I've not spent a lot of time in comparing the MQB-1 to the BK Gamer but it appeared more usable with certain frequencies and smoother with different volumes. The Mini BK units have always worked best within a certain window, but too much gain or too much low frequencies and it worsens them rather than improves them. Might be better to clear one of the Mini BK than the Earthquake but youve had more time with them than tests I have done so far.

Do keep an eye on ebay or stores that sell musical gear like drum thrones.
You certainly can get bargins and may find better deals on the large Concert (2ohm) as most people will want the 4ohm BK LFE.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

What do you think of Dayton audio hdn-8?

 

[Mr Latte]

What do you think of Dayton audio hdn-8?

I compared it to the exciters here back in 2019.
It has a screw to attach to wood and is waterproof with a more suitable role for turning objects into speakers. Also is an 8ohm unit so can suit typical HiFi amps people have.

It isn't so good with lower bass frequencies for what we are doing with SImhub and IIRC didn't offer anything in the performance that other units did not do better and to be fair are also more suited to mount to most seats or a rig.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

I compared it to the exciters here back in 2019.
It has a screw to attach to wood and is waterproof with a more suitable role for turning objects into speakers. Also is an 8ohm unit so can suit typical HiFi amps people have.

It isn't so good with lower bass frequencies for what we are doing with SImhub and IIRC didn't offer anything in the performance that other units did not do better and to be fair are also more suited to mount to most seats or a rig.

your input is much appreciated, as usual.
I´m looking for some units to replace a couple of dayton thrusters which Im having issues with, because of the adhesive and relocating. A third unit I had to throw away because, on the other hand, it was so tightly attached I broke it with a screwdriver trying to removing it.

 

[nodin2000]

Hi. Looking for some help/advice on adding some 'shake' to my OpenWheeler Gen3 rig. My budget is around $200 and I'm no wiring expert so I was planning on just buying a Gamer2 and that would be it. However....although I live in the US now, I will be moving to Europe once Covid (hopefully) fades away, and all the Buttkicker stuff is 110V only. That means I've got to buy a step out/down transformer (another $50 and big & ugly). So I'm trying to find a better way to do this.
In my limited technical understanding, the component parts in the Buttkicker are:
- a transducer to do the shaking
- an amp to power the transducer and fliter the high frequencies
- a bunch of cables to connect the 2 pieces above and to your PC
So, if that is correct, I need to buy a tranducer e.g. https://thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker-mini-lfe/
and a dual voltage amp with a high frequency crossover e.g. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MXFDD2J/ref=emc_b_5_t
My PC has a sound card so I run a 3.5m to stereo RCA cable from the green 'line out' (or is it the orange 'c-sub'?) on my computer, to the stereo inputs in the amp. Then I just need to find a way to connect the transducer cable to the amp (seems like I need to get a small run of speaker cable, crimp/connect the buttkicker wires to one end of it, and put some banana plugs on the other end and attach it to the amp.
Add in some Simhub free software and I have a dual voltage solution for around $170.
Did I miss something here? Any ideas for a better setup or upgrades that keep be within the $200-ish price range that is still dual-voltage?
I did find this which is slightly over budget but does have 2 transducers and a dual voltage amp https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio...=1&keywords=bass+shaker&qid=1616774083&sr=8-5
...which put me down the line of getting 2 x Dayton 50W shakers which presumably means I need 2 of those sub amps, but that's still only $80 for the shakers and $100 for 2 amps = $180 and then I can mount one on either side of my rig for stereo shaking?
Thanks