Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software


See page 1 also for links

I liked this one below too but I chickened out and got a "test" 8 Pole cable made professionally to tour-grade spec.
Seeing its finish and quality, I then decided that I would do that for the rest but primarily as I am focusing my own audio at being an important aspect the entire rig is built around and pioneering to push it more than is usually done.

All these incredible motion rigs, I want an incredible tactile/audio immersion based rig instead. :D

 
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Honestly motion is good for a while but it just ends up getting in the way. As a competitive racer, anyway. Fun for the random session here and there but where lap times count and reliability is paramount, nothing beats a static rig. Which makes tactile actually an even MORE important addition. I do think though that less is more in all scenarios, especially when you still want to have time to get in and you know, race.
 
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Honestly motion is good for a while but it just ends up getting in the way. As a competitive racer, anyway. Fun for the random session here and there but where lap times count and reliability is paramount, nothing beats a static rig. Which makes tactile actually an even MORE important addition. I do think though that less is more in all scenarios, especially when you still want to have time to get in and you know, race.

From a tactile perspective, my own view is:

You can only clearly feel so much at once on individual transducers
Individual transducers have their own performance limitations
So it's not entirely a true statement to say less is more.

More of something is not always better neither, but smarter usage, application, and control = better
 
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I agree with not overloading units. But at the same time, I'd rather someone have one or two units and have very limited effects on them such as engine and maybe a collision effect, than simply thinking that to use tactile I need a million units or I might as well not even bother.

It also avoids the endless loop of buying testing selling re-buying hardware instead of doing the thing which our tactile is for in the first place and that's racing.

I'm not saying to buy one unit, keep it simple and then jam every effect Simhub offers into it.
 
I just started testing the hz ranges of the MQB-1 tonight, just in web browser tone generator. This thing packs a pretty good punch. I've bridged the NX1000D in 8Ohm which the software says gives over 600W of power. Limiting it to 500W will hopefully preserve the unit. In this mode, there is no question the unit is getting enough juice to run at full capacity. I'm still balancing all the input gains and sound card / software volume sliders, but the unit seems to get down to around about what they say it's capable of which is 15hz. It's a lot stronger at the same volume at around 18 - 20hz and anything below 15hz starts to drop away significantly until you get under 10hz in which there's basically nothing.

Sitting at 15hz, the ENTIRE RIG is VISIBLY shaking. A really deep, thick rumble. It really does feel like when you're at low idle revs. Holding the steering wheel and having it have so much energy sent through it from a unit that is connected only to the back of the seat is pretty amazing. There's no way anything like this would have been possible with the SMSL amp I don't think.

I also tried just running game audio to the unit last night in ACC. No matter how much I say that game audio tactile just doesn't work for me, I keep trying it. And I keep proving myself right. I put the EQ to within 20 - 150hz and I really can't feel much of anything worthwhile having. I certainly wouldn't pursue this with additional hardware, personally. I know there's more than likely something I'm missing, but I mean if I can't get worthwhile feedback with that level of hz window, what am I missing?

Come to think of it, that might be why I am feeling not so much at 15hz. I have the EQ set. I might have to remove it and try again with the hz range unhindered.

Overall, the Earthquake MQB-1 is a substantial increase in lower hz compared to the BK Mini LFE units, as these tend to stop at around 35-37hz before running into piston issues with the enclosure. Now, I can not only get even lower, with more power, but I am sending so much tactile feedback across the rig that it feels like the whole thing is full of them. With only the single seat unit running.

I plan to use the seat unit for engine, gear and maybe a little collision and the front and rear under mounted BK Mini LFE units for suspension and road effects, with maybe a layer of collision as well. After a rocky and frustrating start, it seems that the upgrade was more substantial that first thought. The bonus with the MQB-1 is that it's fairly small, around the same size as the Mini LFE but with the benefit of more power and lower hz range. I think it's a good in between unit. I could definitely see this being enough if all you wanted was some engine gear and car body effects, perhaps when running a motion platform.
 
2 quick question!

I have two Buttkicker LFEs on the way and wondering where to mount them.

One under the base of the seat and one under the pedals or either side of the seat.

If the first option, is it best to mount under the seat or at thelower back part of the seat?

Just asking before I start drilling holes into my seat!
 
I agree with not overloading units. But at the same time, I'd rather someone have one or two units and have very limited effects on them such as engine and maybe a collision effect, than simply thinking that to use tactile I need a million units or I might as well not even bother.

It also avoids the endless loop of buying testing selling re-buying hardware instead of doing the thing which our tactile is for in the first place and that's racing.

I'm not saying to buy one unit, keep it simple and then jam every effect Simhub offers into it.

Here are some questions for you or anyone that wants to respond...

Consider this, perhaps it's not even necessary to jam a pile of effects into a single unit to cause a scenario of diminishing returns from that unit being used?

If you have multiple effects that are active at the same times that the unit has to generate, what happens?
Also, the frequencies set to be used for these effects. What other additional frequencies do these contain and what harmonics may also be generated? Really now, what is the combined generated tones/harmonics that the transducer is needing to generate with the effects selected?

Would it help knowing these factors?

Seriously, what happens with the frequencies these effects use that are shared in each effect when several are being generated at the same time? These frequencies in question that are being used, how then does the transducer used, actually represent them?

So what about the transducer itself being used, surely it has its own character/signature in how it may represent some frequencies clearer or better than others. Ahh, but which are they if so?

A common issue with most transducers that people will use. They create many of their effects within the 30-80Hz range. Simply as these feel best. Out of that range @35Hz-55Hz may have the most punch. So what happens is in effects they use these favored frequencies or similar frequencies for multiple effects?

Yet if a user has hardware that can only properly represent part of the bass range. Then they are missing both low bass potential as well as subharmonics and also naturally created harmonics that the fundamental frequencies used for effects will generate.

My point is, we can make better effects when we begin to understand better these factors, when we see what happens with frequencies and their amplitude when effects are compounding repeated frequencies that are being generated.

This also has a bearing on the transducer used that its stronger felt frequencies (often reused in various effects) will swamp the feeling of higher generated tones and detail they may contain. In layman's terms, you have effects with limited distinction and restricted felt sensations. As specific frequencies being generated are overwhelming others and several effects are using similar frequencies. It becomes tactile mush.

We can take things further beyond the restraints a single unit's operation may have and better apply the full bass frequency range to units tailored for specific frequency usage. This already has been tested and proven.

There are three primary groups:
Subharmonic ultra-low bass / Low Bass / High Bass
Real generated vibrations use all 3, why don't we then create effects to do the same? To then represent these frequencies on hardware capable of offering them with sufficient energy and detail?

For those interested, perhaps we will...
My perspective is that regards effects creation their is still much to do and learn
 
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2 quick question!

I have two Buttkicker LFEs on the way and wondering where to mount them.

One under the base of the seat and one under the pedals or either side of the seat.

If the first option, is it best to mount under the seat or at thelower back part of the seat?

Just asking before I start drilling holes into my seat!

I have one mounted directly under the seat. Good thing about that is the holes are covered and never visible should you wish to take the BK off at some stage or sell the seat. The other one is under the pedals mounted on the 8020 BUT I've recently moved it from under the pedals a bit closer to my body. It's now more under my knees. Feel there is better feeling there are the unit was a little uncomfortable under my feet all the time, sometimes it would vibrate at the hz that would tingle my feet over time. At least there you can try different positions if your rig is similar to mine without drilling anything. I guess it depends on what effects you were looking to send to the seat. But I can definitely confirm that moving from the 8020 to directly onto the seat made a HUGE difference in feedback felt and you don't need to run the unit as high a gain as on the metal frame.
 
I have one mounted directly under the seat. Good thing about that is the holes are covered and never visible should you wish to take the BK off at some stage or sell the seat. The other one is under the pedals mounted on the 8020 BUT I've recently moved it from under the pedals a bit closer to my body. It's now more under my knees. Feel there is better feeling there are the unit was a little uncomfortable under my feet all the time, sometimes it would vibrate at the hz that would tingle my feet over time. At least there you can try different positions if your rig is similar to mine without drilling anything. I guess it depends on what effects you were looking to send to the seat. But I can definitely confirm that moving from the 8020 to directly onto the seat made a HUGE difference in feedback felt and you don't need to run the unit as high a gain as on the metal frame.

My Aura Pro's are PLENTY under my foot plate. I could run them harder than I do. I would think an LFE or Concert would be overkill there at least with the movement my foot plate allows. I've felt that tingling sensation you mention before too. Definitely too much at that point. As with your experience the bigger transducer on my seat was exactly what I needed. Some things were getting lost before. Not anymore :)
 
My Aura Pro's are PLENTY under my foot plate. I could run them harder than I do. I would think an LFE or Concert would be overkill there at least with the movement my foot plate allows. I've felt that tingling sensation you mention before too. Definitely too much at that point. As with your experience the bigger transducer on my seat was exactly what I needed. Some things were getting lost before. Not anymore :)

You have me puzzled or should I be worried?

My newest frame build uses 4x Quadrants
Each will have:

2x Large BK
2x Clarke TST

The key is that different frequencies require varying amplitude. Sometimes it's not just all about boosting the low bass but reducing the mid-bass in finding a balance. That's why we use things like Crossover filtering and EQ to control the amplitude that each frequency band will generate on each unit.

What many users do is they take a scenario of a 40Hz type peak frequency to determine what the gain/volume limit is needed to feel as ideal. To then determine that anything more powerful would be wasted.

Low bass has much more energy, it's not just a volume thing.
You cannot shake a couch/large object with a peak 40Hz output at any volume.

I show this again as an example of low bass bandwidth able to move more mass.
Take a look at the sofa at 35Hz compared to under 10Hz with dual Q10B (@4:35)


So if we want to introduce effects that illustrate much better scenarios for high energy like:

Idle
Engine Strain
Chassis Vibration
Deceleration
Braking

Guess what you need?
It's not just what you use it's how you use it.
 
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I understand where you are coming from.

I'm using 25 Hz upto 60 Hz for different effects, on different transducers.

The sweet spot for the Concert is considerably lower than it is on the Auras.

I have a very satisfactory lumpy idle,
solid engine rpm and a redline artifact.
Road bumps come through loud and clear.
Front and rear wheel slip is also very clear.
Gear shift thunk also feels clear.

I use motion to feel acceleration/deceleration.
Tactile will provide rumble strips, but motion kicks in when I hit a curb.
 
I understand where you are coming from.

I'm using 25 Hz upto 60 Hz for different effects, on different transducers.

The sweet spot for the Concert is considerably lower than it is on the Auras.

I have a very satisfactory lumpy idle,
solid engine rpm and a redline artifact.
Road bumps come through loud and clear.
Front and rear wheel slip is also very clear.
Gear shift thunk also feels clear.

I use motion to feel acceleration/deceleration.
Tactile will provide rumble strips, but motion kicks in when I hit a curb.

Bumps / Engine Rpm / Wheelslip / Gear Shift
There are scenarios when all of those effects could be active at one time.

All those from 25-60Hz?

This is my point with a standard install approach, multi-effects and limited range.....

So you wouldn't mind sharing your effects to determine what your tactile units are being requested to generate?
Or to see what frequencies from those effects are overlapping with the 35Hz range you are using.
 
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I'm happy to share my settings and take any and all constructive suggestions. May be later on today though.

FWIW I did end up having to take just about every effect that went to both the seat ( Concert ) and foot plate (Aura's) and split them into separate front and rear effects because of the differences in effective range where they are powerful.
 
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I think we would find many other users with a similar type of thing happening.

Just curious as to what is the (lowest-highest) Hz people here typically use and what range then they are utilizing for whatever number of effects they run with.

A point I usually put forward is, how limited are the effects we create in this conventional manner, and if we potentially only use 35Hz Vs 50Hz Vs 70Hz of range to help differentiate each effect's felt sensation?

If 2-3 effects use a large portion of similar frequencies, then when 2-3effects are called to output at the same or very similar timings. My question to you or anyone with similar is, explain how does the user feel each effect being represented on a single unit and these combined effects not just one response with those overlapping frequencies?
 
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2 quick question!

I have two Buttkicker LFEs on the way and wondering where to mount them.

One under the base of the seat and one under the pedals or either side of the seat.

If the first option, is it best to mount under the seat or at thelower back part of the seat?

Just asking before I start drilling holes into my seat!

See here
Keep an eye here

Stereo effects can be fun but possibly harder to successfully convey in only the seat with dual BK.
Personally, I have found and recommended using 3 exciters up the side of the seat to work with BK units as it will improve the felt stereo over more of your sides/back.

You may find it more immersive with two large units to cover both the seat and pedals as this way you extend the felt tactile more directly over more than one body area.
 
From Parts Express today on my NX3000D order:


Thank you for your order with Parts Express. Regretfully, the back order item 248-7013 (Behringer NX3000D Ultra Lightweight Class D 3000W Power Amplifier with DSP) is no longer available to us from Behringer, and we have subsequently discontinued this item. We can continue to fulfill orders for items that are currently in stock. However, once stock is depleted, we cannot replenish inventory. We are happy to assist you with any possible alternatives that we do carry. I have provided contact info for our Technical Team below.


Your PayPal account will be refunded $406.59. Please allow 1 to 3 business days to process.
 
Crutchfield also shows it as being discontinued, and most places online are out of stock....

Wonder what the replacement unit in the lineup will be? Or if there even is one?


This puts a bit of a wrench in the "Lets all get as similar of hardware as possible and then tune things together" plan haha
 

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