Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[vanka472]

Is there a benefit to the Douk M4 over using something like the smaller NS-01G? is it just cleaner and easier since the M4 is a 4x and the 01G is a 2x?

 

[RCHeliguy]

What's killing me is that I've got my tactile feeling great in iRacing, but I can't get Dirt Rally 2.0 to feel right. I had Dirt Rally 1.0 feeling really good, but for some reason Dirt Rally 2.0 just doesn't seem to have the detail and amplitude that Dirt Rally 1.0 had.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

@Brutal Deluxe nice work

@EsxPaul great price

Edit:
I have a query, @Brutal Deluxe does this VHB have the cutout center hole.

Not sure we even need that but another option I had tried a while back was a 3M/Velcro 2 piece VHB. I had to hunt and find one of the old units I had used when sticking to different places for testing. This solution might help with more curved surfaces lads.



This was an exciter that gave its existence to testing and fought hard with early tests I did last year.
You can see the velcro, simply peel off the exciter and then remove the 3M stuck to the seat. It might be easier if wanting to try different positions. This also had no center hole and is a bit thicker but I dont recall that it impacted the operation of the unit even if it may dampen a little some of its output.

I'm not sure of the model number...

The 3M VHB tape doesn't come as a disc / circle with the centre cut out, it would be as a strip or square, etc... I wouldn't have any concern over it not having the centre cut out. It is extremely thin and shouldn't make any difference to the transfer of energy from the shaker.

I like your idea of using 3M Dual Lock. They do 3 grades of it (weak, medium, strong), which can be mixed and matched to create additional strengths. I would only use the weakest one as exciters are only light. If you put two strong pieces together, you can't even pull them apart by hand.

I'm thinking about adding additional exciters and biwiring them (if that's the correct term). Basically replacing one exciter with two so they're under less stress. I would potentially need to get a small mount for them 3D printed due to the lack of flat space on my seat, but that's pretty easy to arrange. Can you see any potential downside to this approach?

I really like the rumble strip feedback they give (it is quite childish but does also boost the immersion) and wish it was intensified a little more. After already breaking one of them, I don't think I should be trying to push them further. Hopefully the above approach can achieve this. Kind of wish there was an option for shakers that sat somewhere between exciters and TSTs

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

What's killing me is that I've got my tactile feeling great in iRacing, but I can't get Dirt Rally 2.0 to feel right. I had Dirt Rally 1.0 feeling really good, but for some reason Dirt Rally 2.0 just doesn't seem to have the detail and amplitude that Dirt Rally 1.0 had.

I might be looking at a similar challenge. Really like Dirt 2.0 and plan to get back in to it once my Aiologs handbrake arrives. Haven't tried using tactile with it and don't really know what to expect in regards to road texture. Only used tactile on tarmac tracks so far.

Like the idea of tuning in the RPMs on some Class B rally cars though

 

[Mr Latte]

I have 6 new units waiting to be installed when I get the seat attached to the new frame (working on it at the moment).
Think I may go with the lighter Velcro-VHB option, not sure if the ones I had are but seemed quite thick.
Do you know the product code?

I would contact to try to get a free replacement for the unit you have.

For rumble strip improvements, just set an additional layer for the LFE you have but with lower Hz to work with the exciters.

I'm not keen on Bi-wiring and I prefer each unit to be on its own channel, this way you have more control of effects.

Note after weeks of not being available - Now in stock (mines dispatched)
The software looks okay but nice meters and lots of controls. Ive honestly read of few people having issues with the exciters but maybe reducing the lowest Hz on them might help as in fairness Simhub is sending out much more low bass with multiple effects than typical audio probably is.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

I have 6 new units waiting to be installed when I get the seat attached to the new frame (working on it at the moment).
Think I may go with the lighter Velcro-VHB option, not sure if the ones I had are but seemed quite thick.
Do you know the product code?

I would contact to try to get a free replacement for the unit you have.

For rumble strip improvements, just set an additional layer for the LFE you have but with lower Hz to work with the exciters.

I'm not keen on Bi-wiring and I prefer each unit to be on its own channel, this way you have more control of effects.

Note after weeks of not being available - Now in stock (mines dispatched)
The software looks okay but nice meters and lots of controls. Ive honestly read of few people having issues with the exciters but maybe reducing the lowest Hz on them might help as in fairness Simhub is sending out much more low bass with multiple effects than typical audio probably is.

Nice to hear that work on the rig is progressing, I'm keen to see what it becomes.

I'm not completely familiar with the 3M Dual Lock range, it was part of a different product group when I worked there. This company are one of their main distributors for this kind of stuff, might be worth contacting them for further advice. I think there might also be a low profile option that could be well suited;

3M™ Dual Lock™ – Viking Industrial Products Ltd

3M™ Dual Lock™ tape from Viking Industrial Protects is a cost effective way to secure frequently removed parts or temporary fixtures. Shop online today.

www.vikingtapes.co.uk

I've looked again at my options with the exciters... and have ordered another couple of them to wire up in series (sorry). I understand what you're saying about the additional control. If they don't work how I hope when wired in series, then I'll get another cheap amp and wire them through that. I'll keep you posted with how it works out.

The external DSP looks interesting. I did look briefly for something similar a while ago but drew a blank. Might look in to this further at a later date.

Take care and keep up the momentum with the build. Speak soon

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm back with more questions

I've been having a look through some screenshots of the Behringer NX Edit software and it's caused a bit of head scratching for me. Hope you guys can help me to clear up my confusion. Hopefully my questions will make some sense.

I'm trying to settle on:
A) The connections from my MB onboard audio to the NX3000D
B) The most optimal NX Edit configuration setting once the above is decided

The recommended cable would be 3.5 TRS to twin XLR male


If I use this cable, am I still able to/would it be recommended to then select 'Dual Mono' as my NX Edit configuration so that I'll have more control options with each channel?

I'm planning to use dual large BKs, one front, one rear, so I'm expecting that they'll need to be set up quite differently.

Going back to cabling again, what got me questioning myself was that I came across these cables on the Thomann site:

Mini stereo Jack to XLR Male (Left / Right summed) encoded

Which got me to thinking, would there be any benefit to using 2 of these, plugged into 2 separate audio outputs on the soundcard, as opposed to the splitter type that uses one audio ouput? Would it give me any additional control over each channel at the soundcard level?

I'm currently reading and re reading Mr Latte's brilliant posts on the NX3000D DSP settings here: https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/behringer-nx3000d-dsp-settings-starting-point.163924/ but clearly it's not quite sinking into my skull just yet

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm back with more questions

I've been having a look through some screenshots of the Behringer NX Edit software and it's caused a bit of head scratching for me. Hope you guys can help me to clear up my confusion. Hopefully my questions will make some sense.

I'm trying to settle on:
A) The connections from my MB onboard audio to the NX3000D
B) The most optimal NX Edit configuration setting once the above is decided

The recommended cable would be 3.5 TRS to twin XLR male
View attachment 374846

If I use this cable, am I still able to/would it be recommended to then select 'Dual Mono' as my NX Edit configuration so that I'll have more control options with each channel?
View attachment 374847

I'm planning to use dual large BKs, one front, one rear, so I'm expecting that they'll need to be set up quite differently.

Going back to cabling again, what got me questioning myself was that I came across these cables on the Thomann site:

Mini stereo Jack to XLR Male (Left / Right summed) encoded
View attachment 374848
Which got me to thinking, would there be any benefit to using 2 of these, plugged into 2 separate audio outputs on the soundcard, as opposed to the splitter type that uses one audio ouput? Would it give me any additional control over each channel at the soundcard level?

I'm currently reading and re reading Mr Latte's brilliant posts on the NX3000D DSP settings here: https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/behringer-nx3000d-dsp-settings-starting-point.163924/ but clearly it's not quite sinking into my skull just yet

I know lots of things I have tried to help with would be handier all grouped together but much of the info shared was based around people's queries at different times and often in different threads/posts.

To clarify:
Very simple, the "3.5 TRS - Twin XLR Male" cable supports 2 channels, XLR is the best/strongest connection that audio professionals prefer. Cheaper type cables will be less robust but more expensive cables usually will have better quality of the cable used as well as improved insulation jackets and offer a nice snug connection.

To me that brings more confidence longterm knowing its a quality product, it will deliver a good signal and what's the point in using the best amp/shakers if you then want budget cable? However, people look at this differently. So go with what you feel is adequate to keep you satisfied or personal preference is.

Each 3.5mm output from the soundcard contains 2 channels
5.1 or 7.1 Soundcards (while not always) often are colour coded
These typically are:

So the question arises, what mode to set the Behringer (iNuke / NXD) amp to use?
The NX3000D amp is for all purposes a stereo amp and supports 2 channels.
You are using two-channels with your soundcard and cable and often people just assume "Stereo" is then the correct mode to use.

Dual Mono Vs Stereo
Choosing Dual Mono or Stereo both actually support 2 independent channels.
Use the graphic icons to determine the path of the source through the stages of DSP. The main difference and why you want to select Dual Mono is because you can set individual controls for each channel. You can click a "Channel Link" feature that will copy settings so you don't have to manually input them for both A/B channels but it does not take that long anyway to manually set them.

If you seek help and are willing to participate with effects creation/experimentation then I help by providing some profiles for the amp as well as effects for Simhub. I then try to help people learn how to use features like Crossover PEQ etc to tune them to their own liking.

Online Tutorial Courses / You-Tube / Consultancy?
These are things in the last 2 months I have been mulling over and I feel kinda torn about it tbh.
I have been offered and asked several times recently by people in PM that they will pay for a 1-1 service for this and other tactile help. It is something I am considering as while I never really have sought money for such or the reason that motivates me to help people here or elsewhere regards tactile. I could do with some funds towards, my own personal situation and helping to progress my own build. If the decision is made I will do it through the right way in relation to rules/guidelines here.

 

[jamescarruthers]

XLR is really overkill — especially as it's not even a balanced connection from the soundcard — not that I would even care about it being balanced as any semblance of "audio quality" is crazy talk considering we are talking about pushing it through an exciter, not a set of studio monitors.

Now, if the XLR was mounted on a rig that was shaking — then it might make sense as XLR connectors have locking.

 

[Mr Latte]

XLR is really overkill — especially as it's not even a balanced connection from the soundcard — not that I would even care about it being balanced as any semblance of "audio quality" is crazy talk considering we are talking about pushing it through an exciter, not a set of studio monitors.

Now, if the XLR was mounted on a rig that was shaking — then it might make sense as XLR connectors have locking.

Overkill? Well that depends, audio has a longstanding issue with cables amongst people. My advice is that its not unreasonable to spend 5%-10% on cables for the hardware your connecting. In this case, the amp being talked about uses XLR and 6.3mm jacks so what else should be done?

What may be overkill is If a person wants to make it fully balanced, that is possible with a suitable transformer device like the (ART DTI) or other similar products when they may not really be needed. Yet funny you bring this up as I have had 3 people query me about considering to use balanced in the last couple of months.

XLR connection, is not pointless, often the cables may have better shielding and thicker cores than typical RCA or 3.5mm Jack. It very much is a buy what makes you happy scenario.

Some people may have household electrical issues or other interference from another device. Then, yes (Balanced XLR) will reject the interference. This may not be that common but what is more common is "hum" from the interference of other hardware.

There is a lot of cheap rubbish in cables out there too. I can speak from experience that one cheap 6.3mm jack cable I bought, the tip got lodged and broke off, still stuck in the socket as happened on one of my own amps and I couldn't get it out.

Some common sense is needed, as yes you can spend silly money on cables but I think lots of people get satisfaction too in buying a nice cable. Regardless if it's audio or an HDMI, I think part of this is to do with "peace of mind" but indeed peoples views/habits/preferences vary on this.

 

[RCHeliguy]

XLR is really overkill — especially as it's not even a balanced connection from the soundcard — not that I would even care about it being balanced as any semblance of "audio quality" is crazy talk considering we are talking about pushing it through an exciter, not a set of studio monitors.

Now, if the XLR was mounted on a rig that was shaking — then it might make sense as XLR connectors have locking.

I use XLR connections for the balanced outputs of my DAC/preamp to my high powered audio amplifier and the XLR connection has a better impedance and noise rejection because of the third wire. Those devices also have spring loaded locking mechanisms. I did spend a few bucks to get cables with good shielding. Past that would be a complete waste no matter how expensive your stereo is. I do run overkill speaker cables to my electrostatic speakers because they have low impedances at some frequencies below 1 ohm, but that is a simple matter of making sure they can handle the current well.

The 1/8" to 2 x XLR's is humorous because it starts with a shared ground and a single hot for each channel. So it turns 3 wires into 6. Shielding depends on who makes the wire. Also the back of my NX4-6000 doesn't have spring loaded locking of the XLR connectors. I did get a set because they were not that expensive and look pretty.

As an electrical engineer I've had many debates with people who believe they need to break in power cables and that somehow the electrons traveling through from a junction box through cheap solid core romex cable is somehow transformed by having ridiculously sized power cables between a wall socket and the back of a piece of audio equipment before it goes down to thin traces. The belief in "magic" is crazy. The believe that you need to isolate digital equipment with no moving parts on spikes is crazy. There is plenty of crazy and a lot of snake oil taking advantage of that.

These Behringer amps are high powered brute force appliances. There is no spacial imaging involved for tactile use. There is no nuance to hear. You are heaving around ballast to shake your rigs. Any audiophile notions are meaningless here. Just make sure that you have adequately sized speaker wire for the current you are running and you should be golden.

 

[jamescarruthers]

I use XLR connections for the balanced outputs of my DAC/preamp to my high powered audio amplifier and the XLR connection has a better impedance and noise rejection because of the third wire.

Yes, I should say — XLR is totally overkill for this application. Anything "high spec" apart from _maybe_ the connectors. I'd happily use mains cable for connecting up tactile etc

(Currently sitting at my desk listening to a pair of Genelec's connected with a balanced XLR to a DAC)

 

[EsxPaul]

All points taken onboard. Thanks very much for your views and input, guys and as always, thanks so much for taking your time to walk me through this Mr Latte.

I've never plugged a single thing into the audio section of my onboard audio. In fact, I just had to dust it off to take a picture as I haven't seen it for close to 5 years.



I didn't even know that those jacks could output audio to two channels. This is the level of frustrating audio dummy you are dealing with here

Comparing some NX Edit configuration screenshots was what started my train of misguided thought.




I saw what I thought were extra levels of control with the Dual Mono selection which led me on to think that I'd need separate cables from soundcard to amp to enable individual channels. Just trying to research properly, think it all through and make good choices as a complete noob to it all.

Sorry for adding unnecessary fill to the thread. To be quite honest, I'm swinging backwards and forwards each day between wanting to get into tactile and not bothering with it at all as the more details I read, the more confused and intimidated I get.

 

[Mr Latte]

All points taken onboard. Thanks very much for your views and input, guys and as always, thanks so much for taking your time to walk me through this Mr Latte.

I've never plugged a single thing into the audio section of my onboard audio. In fact, I just had to dust it off to take a picture as I haven't seen it for close to 5 years.

View attachment 374876

I didn't even know that those jacks could output audio to two channels. This is the level of frustrating audio dummy you are dealing with here

Comparing some NX Edit configuration screenshots was what started my train of misguided thought.

View attachment 374877
View attachment 374878

I saw what I thought were extra levels of control with the Dual Mono selection which led me on to think that I'd need separate cables from soundcard to amp to enable individual channels. Just trying to research properly, think it all through and make good choices as a complete noob to it all.

Sorry for adding unnecessary fill to the thread. To be quite honest, I'm swinging backwards and forwards each day between wanting to get into tactile and not bothering with it at all as the more details I read, the more confused and intimidated I get.

Yes you can see that channels A/B have their own routing. You can link them so that one set of controls goes to both channels if you want. This seems complicated now and I am sure others felt it a bit daunting too at the start but they are really enjoying the tactile they have and a common thing you find with tactile (on all levels of hardware used) that once you know what it can add you don't want to race without it as it feels so lifeless.

As you are installing to seat/pedals you may want to control each unit slightly differently but its EASY to compare different settings on the amp if you wish. Stop worrying, you will not be stuck and gees man, get it and you will be laughing in no time at all with some nice effects.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes, I should say — XLR is totally overkill for this application. Anything "high spec" apart from _maybe_ the connectors. I'd happily use mains cable for connecting up tactile etc

(Currently sitting at my desk listening to a pair of Genelec's connected with a balanced XLR to a DAC)

I dont think a quality cable at @£20 is "overkill or high spec" regardless if its XLR or something else. While a £10 cable will suffice yes, it won't be as nice (personal satisfaction factor) or maybe have as nice/good connections. Yes a £5 or £2.50 cable will also work but if XLR is a supported connection the amp uses. Then it makes sense to buy that type of cable.

It's just adding to the confusion for others, to say its "overkill" and as for "what spec/quality" of cable the user decides to buy is a personal thing.

I have a friend who spent over 20k on a two-speaker stereo package from LINN Audio and is all into the 24bit/96KHz stuff yet he struggles to hear over 15KHz. In fairness the speakers build and finish are gorgeous as is their sound but "satisfaction" for some people means paying more, obtaining a more upmarket product even if it doesn't really make total sense.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yes, I should say — XLR is totally overkill for this application. Anything "high spec" apart from _maybe_ the connectors. I'd happily use mains cable for connecting up tactile etc

(Currently sitting at my desk listening to a pair of Genelec's connected with a balanced XLR to a DAC)

Back when I was working on a digital master console called "The Muse" at Audio Animation we had a pair of self amped Genelec speakers in the studio. They were 1kW each and had protection circuitry with cut offs. This was very important to us because a mistake processing digital music could easily blow a speaker, like we did with a pair of Magneplaners. We played with a Sony DASH unit in the studio room with recent recordings from Sterling sound. Our mastering console would sync up to the SMPTE timecode on the tape and would allow the mastering engineer to stick his finger in the reels and wind the tape backwards and have the console sync back up and change all the DRC, EQ, fader etc.. settings back to where they were. Then he could make tweaks and it would remember them.

Back in the day our equipment was used at a number of places like Sterling Sound, Capitol Records and Denny Purcell in Nashville. Back then we could handle up to 96kHz x 24bit wide. It was a lot of fun and also a lot of 100 hour work weeks.

I currently have studio monitors mounted on the wall in my office, Martin Logans in the next room. My surround sound system in the basement is Definitive plus an SVC PC4000 to shake the walls.

Anyway we are getting way off topic.

And yeah, $20 is nothing for secure cabling.

I've seen people spend $500 on a USB cable because they have no idea that the bits of digital music just have to be good enough to latch a 1 or 0 and it doesn't matter how noisy those bits are as long as they are within spec. Not only that but there is time for the bits to be re-transmitted to the DAC's buffer if an error is detected. Still they will swear the music sounds better. Cognitive dissonance and the placebo effect are incredibly strong influences on the irrational human brain. Plus music sounds better if you are in a good mood or excited and frequently when someone gets an expensive piece of equipment they are excited and credit all kinds of amazing things to how something sounds.

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

I am looking forward to another thread possibly coming from @ScreaminBejesus giving his own views/perspectives. I gave him some help, towards ideas/options with a rather nice custom solution he went with for a challenging installation to his rig.

Yes, I am hoping to find time over the long weekend to pull all the hardware together and start a build thread, with much gratitude to @Mr Latte for his support and guidance. Stay tuned.

 

[EsxPaul]

Question regarding terminals on the large BK for those in the know.

I've noticed that new, in store items have the banana plug inputs whereas some 2nd hand ones I've seen on eBay etc have clamp down phillips screw terminals. I'm guessing there was a change made some time back. Do I need to be wary of the screw terminal type as it could be a sign that I'm looking at potentially very old and well used stock?

 

[Mr Latte]

Question regarding terminals on the large BK for those in the know.

I've noticed that new, in store items have the banana plug inputs whereas some 2nd hand ones I've seen on eBay etc have clamp down phillips screw terminals. I'm guessing there was a change made some time back. Do I need to be wary of the screw terminal type as it could be a sign that I'm looking at potentially very old and well used stock?

It used to be the LFE only had the banana plug style jacks, now the Concert does as well. I don't know how long ago this was introduced.

 

[EsxPaul]

Thanks for the fast reply @Mr Latte. I've just spotted a couple of large concerts on eBay which brought those connections to my attention. To be honest, they look a bit crusty and the prices aren't great either for what appear to be well used items.

In the meantime, I've jacked up my rig with my last remaining off cuts. I should have just enough clearance for a large BK once I add some isolation to the seat and pedal deck.