Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Fabrizio85

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Jul 2, 2018
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@Mr Latte Have my last doubts... Thinking of buying 2 Douk NS-10G Pro because of DSP control, is it possible to manage frequencies and volume per channel via integrated software? Which speaker cable dimensions should I buy (mm², diameter)?
 

Mr Latte

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@Mr Latte Have my last doubts... Thinking of buying 2 Douk NS-10G Pro because of DSP control, is it possible to manage frequencies and volume per channel via integrated software? Which speaker cable dimensions should I buy (mm², diameter)?
Okay, dont get confused by the different DSP options shown in this thread that because the Douk Audio labels some products as using "Hi-Fi DSP" that it is the same thing or even similar.

What Douk audio is likely doing is having some form of signal processing done with the audio to help improve the sound. I would consider this to be more like a bass boost or form of EQ applied and built into the amp. It is not offering the user a set of control/options like proper DSP processing units generally offer.

I mentioned speaker cables in the cable guide, you can get a link at the start of this thread. Its a bit old now and has references to Simvibe usage but might still be of some help.
 
Dec 8, 2017
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My pedal platform was giving me a lot of reverb / resonance at higher frequencies. Everything on it is super solid, but it still resonated as hell.

I'm using this soft isolation.

1590233360593.png

My platform looks like this.

1590233394652.png

I also have a tensioner screws (in 4 corners) between top and bottom part, so the isolators are squished constantly. It helped little bit, but the reverb / resonance was still there. I tried to increase the tension on the screws, but it didn't help. But I found out, that if I physically lean on the platform with my body, the reverb stops. I thought that tightening the screws will have the same effect as weight, that is added to the top platform, but it isn't the case.

So my solution is this:

1590233707877.png


I added 2x 10 kg balast weight on top of the platform :)

It has fantastically improved every aspect of the tactile being produced at the front. Once the buttkickers get this mass moving, it's moving with the whole rig and is felt even in the seat and feels like nice smooth movement. The higher frequencies also get much benefit and resonance is gone and stereo feeling gone up a lot too!

Definitely worth experimenting with this concept, I would say. Maybe it's specific to my mounting / isolation properties, but I think this can be useful for other people too.
 
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EsxPaul

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Feb 17, 2016
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Is there any way to check that a large BK has basic functionality without owning an amp? I remember many years back, being able to use a 9V battery to check if a standard speaker was open circuit and wondered if there was a similar method?

I'm debating whether to go for some used units but might not have an amp for some while yet.
 

Mr Latte

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@Michal Burisin

As mentioned earlier, your design allows a large surround frame to easily spread the tactile to places it does not need to go. The primary load/weight of the platform is likely to be closer to the seat and up to the point of the BK.

This requires some speculation but this load may be causing some degree of leverage to the furthest front isolators which have practically no load on them.

Yet this same region you have a horizontal bridge to let the energy freely flow over and the isolators used, you previously mentioned they are quite soft and work more in one direction but looking at your plans, they are installed 90 degrees to the others, so effectively are positioned less optimally if installed this way?

I don't see why you need the whole front surround section you have the weights applied to, it just encourages the harmonics with the free flow of energy of the L/R units. You could try removing the front horizontal bridge and rotate the furthest front isolator to the same position as the others. Or consider shortening the length no further than the horizontal bridge the pedals rest on.

Speculation here again but the softer isolator with less load applied to it in this region is letting the 8020 frame bounce as a mechanical amplifier and increasing the resonance? Alternatively it may be that having firmer isolators where there is less load/depression at the front may resolve the issue without those big weights. Yet these things often need experimentation.

Explain Purpose:
Pedal Frame.png
 
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Fabrizio85

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Jul 2, 2018
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Okay, dont get confused by the different DSP options shown in this thread that because the Douk Audio labels some products as using "Hi-Fi DSP" that it is the same thing or even similar.

What Douk audio is likely doing is having some form of signal processing done with the audio to help improve the sound. I would consider this to be more like a bass boost or form of EQ applied and built into the amp. It is not offering the user a set of control/options like proper DSP processing units generally offer.

I mentioned speaker cables in the cable guide, you can get a link at the start of this thread. Its a bit old now and has references to Simvibe usage but might still be of some help.
So that sort of EQ is pretty useless with shakers, if I understand. Thanks again @Mr Latte, very clear as always. I'll buy 2x NS-01G or one M4 instead with 16 or 14 ga AWG cables. Cheers.
 
Dec 8, 2017
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@Michal Burisin

As mentioned earlier, your design allows a large surround frame to easily spread the tactile to places it does not need to go. The primary load/weight of the platform is likely to be closer to the seat and up to the point of the BK.

This requires some speculation but this load may be causing some degree of leverage to the furthest front isolators which have practically no load on them.

Yet this same region you have a horizontal bridge to let the energy freely flow over and the isolators used, you previously mentioned they are quite soft and work more in one direction but looking at your plans, they are installed 90 degrees to the others, so effectively are positioned less optimally if installed this way?

I don't see why you need the whole front surround section you have the weights applied to, it just encourages the harmonics with the free flow of energy of the L/R units. You could try removing the front horizontal bridge and rotate the furthest front isolator to the same position as the others. Or consider shortening the length no further than the horizontal bridge the pedals rest on.

Speculation here again but the softer isolator with less load applied to it in this region is letting the 8020 frame bounce as a mechanical amplifier and increasing the resonance? Alternatively it may be that having firmer isolators where there is less load/depression at the front may resolve the issue without those big weights. Yet these things often need experimentation.

Explain Purpose:
View attachment 375508
In the end, I'm using just 4 isolators (marked in the image):

1590243898720.png

In this direction, they prevent movement front to back.

I thought, I would need to have another set of 4 isolators to have it stiffer and also have prevention agains "roll" of the pedal platform with added motion, but it was not needed in the end.

The additional frame extending to the front (red on your image) is needed to offset the the isloators more to the front. Without this offset, pressing the stiff brake pedal would make the platform "pitch" as the front isolators would be pressed in and back isolators would be extending. This offset makes the platform solid and without movement during hard braking.

I tried to make the isolators stiffer with tightening screws, but it didn't help.

I'm really happy with this solution, it looks weird for sure but it has improved tactile feeling a lot as I wrote. As it gets the bigger mass moving, it's better felt.

I haven't seen any downsides so far compared to the installation before.

Also as for L/R stereo separation it's better felt. For example, when just left unit is active, it makes the left additional weight active and there is a clear movement of the left side with bigger travel and the right side is more still. Before, I couldn't get this degree of positional separation. I'll try to make a video in the evening, that would better explain it.

I think this load really helps. I was always fighting with some resonance in the pedals and not the seat, as the seat with driver is much heavier. Maybe just problem with my installation, but it solves all problems for me.

Here is the whole rig in action (video without added weights), to give more context:


There is secondary isolation below SFX-100 feet. As the heavier pedal platform gets moving, it has more impact on the isolation below and can be much better felt through the whole rig - even the seat and what's strange, I can feel stereo L / R separation in the seat coming from the front units (I don't have seat L / R tactile units operational due to burned amp at the moment). This weight really got the whole rig moving, so this additional layer of the isolation may be another specific reason, why it's working so well for me.
 
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Mr Latte

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If your content that's what matters and its an all-round impressive rig for sure so yes time for you to start enjoying it.

The motion is likely helping to give you the perception that the felt tactile from the platform and entering the seat is L/R.

You can easily test this by generating effects in mono to each unit and it may even feel better.
Clearly the L/R units with more than one direct horizontal bridge only 14-16" apart would encourage the crosstalk to actually be happening in that foot platform rather than reducing it. Having feedback from firmer isolators at the pedals would have been interesting to determine how it changed things too.
 
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Dec 8, 2017
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If your content that's what matters and its an all-round impressive rig for sure so yes time for you to start enjoying it.

The motion is likely helping to give you the perception that the felt tactile from the platform and entering the seat is L/R.

You can easily test this by generating effects in mono to each unit and it may even feel better.
Clearly the L/R units with more than one direct horizontal bridge only 14-16" apart would encourage the crosstalk to actually be happening in that foot platform rather than reducing it. Having feedback from firmer isolators at the pedals would have been interesting to determine how it changed things too.
I'm tuning each system individually, so I can feel quite good L / R separation from tactile alone (also on the pedal deck - left BK goes mainly to left heel / right BK to right heel), but that's relative as all in tactile :) I'm saying that I think the separation is good, but if you tried it, you might think otherwise. No way to tell without having direct comparison. Also I have no point of reference beside my own rig and previous experience with experimenting with it, so really hard to tell objectively.
 
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Mr Latte

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I'm tuning each system individually, so I can feel quite good L / R separation from tactile alone (also on the pedal deck - left BK goes mainly to left heel / right BK to right heel), but that's relative as all in tactile :) I'm saying that I think the separation is good, but if you tried it, you might think otherwise. No way to tell without having direct comparison. Also I have no point of reference beside my own rig and previous experience with experimenting with it, so really hard to tell objectively.
You can use the record feature to keep repeating a set of bump effects and look at the output for the channels in Simhub how the L/R may differ in the effects output.

Let us know how it feels to have "Corners" used for suspension bumps compared to "Mono" but if doing this you would also be best to share the settings used in Simhub for the effect.


Additional Test:
Place your right foot only on the pedals/foot platform
Use a Gear Shift effect to only output to the left BK
Can you feel the effect in your right foot, how much
Now do test with only your left foot and still only left BK
Determine how much stronger/weaker the effect used is between each foot
You could do this test also with different frequencies used to help determine if they make a difference
Try with moderate and high volumes
 
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Dec 8, 2017
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You can use the record feature to keep repeating a set of bump effects and look at the output for the channels in Simhub how the L/R may differ in the effects output.

Let us know how it feels to have "Corners" used for suspension bumps compared to "Mono" but if doing this you would also be best to share the settings used in Simhub for the effect.


Additional Test:
Place your right foot only on the pedals/foot platform
Use a Gear Shift effect to only output to the left BK
Can you feel the effect in your right foot, how much
Now do test with only your left foot and still only left BK
Determine how much stronger/weaker the effect used is between each foot
You could do this test also with different frequencies used to help determine if they make a difference
Try with moderate and high volumes
I'll try.

I have tested it only with continuous effect - lateral G-Force at around 37 Hz. The primary foot got 100 % of the energy, and the other around 60 % I would say.

I will test it with lower frequencies, more suitable for bumps / impacts, but I don't use that effects too much, motion is doing most of the bumps. I'll have to take a look and set it up. I have trouble getting response from bumps in SimHub. In SimCommander, there was a way to set lower frequencies for big bumps, and higher for smaller bumps and even distribute how much energy they should have. Here I'm not sure how to set it like this.

Regarding additional test with using just one foot, I'm pretty certain, there would be no felt stereo separation at all. I think, with my installation, the first foot eats up the most energy and it stabilizes the platform, so the energy going to the other foot is somewhat smaller. To have stereo separation working for just one foot, different installation with separated pedal deck would be necessary.

Regarding the weights on the pedal deck - it's just brutal, I had to tune down lot of effects :) Now I have lot of power to spare and I don't have to drive the buttkickers as hard.
 
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Mar 30, 2020
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I am new to tactile and really having some difficulty getting a decent feeling out my setup. I did get a good deal on 4 BK Mini LFE's. I know they have issues but i got a good deal locally. I have four(one on each corner of an 8020 rig). They are powered by (2) 2x160 amps. I am using Simvibe in Chassis mode, as i already own it. Got it with my AFV2.

I have a few questions if anyone has some guidance.

  1. I have read the thread about reducing pang on the BK Mini's with Inuke DSP. Has anyone had any success with a Windows based Parametric EQ? Such PEACE, Equalizer APO or VoiceMeeter Banana? I have have tried duplicating the filter from the other thread in PEACE but it doesn't feel right. If you have had some success please share the app you are using and your setup. It would be greatly appreciated.
  2. SimVibe vs Simhub - As stated i already own Simvibe but is Simhub superior for Tactile? Should i turn off tactile in Simvibe and use Simhub for Tactile? Can i run SC just for my wheel and Simhub for tactile simultaneously?
  3. Engine RPM's - With my current setup this nearly knocks me out of my seat at idle and low RPM's but when up to speed and higher RPM's I feel nothing. Is this the same scenario that is being addressed with the Inuke DSP? I know i should feel a more subtle hum at higher RPM's but i should feel something.
  4. Has anyone tried the BK Mini LFE rubber-band mod? If so, what has been your experience with it?
TIA for any and all help. It will be greatly appreciated. I know some of this info is out there and scattered across many forums, post and mediums and I've probably been through most of it.It's just a little bit overwhelming to put it all together.
 
Dec 30, 2019
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Pedal Exciters Ideas / Thoughts

I am currently building my own pedals and rig and want to ensure I future proof regards tactile. My knowledge of tactile is from reading this and other threads on the RD forums and I think I have a reasonable grasp of the basics.

I dont have a PC yet and havent tried any tactile. My PC build will be last, no point buying a PC and having it sat idle, going out of date while I build the rig.

I will start with exciters on the seat and a BK underneath the seat. That solution is well documented and I am reasonably happy with the hardware side of things. Though I have a bit of learning to do regarding different layers of effects and what effects available.

What I would like is your collective thoughts on is what is the best way to go with my pedals. My budget is not unlimited but I will need persuading to go for BK`s on the pedals (due to the cost of the units and amps), hence thinking of exciters.

It is easy for me to isolate each pedal and make individual isolated heel supports if required.
From reading the ideas of separately isolated pedals and supports I may be the first to do this so I do understand there will be some experimentation.

My thoughts:
Isolated clutch heel support
Isolated combined brake / accelerator heel support
Isolated brake pedal

Exciter on the brake stem near my toes
Exciter on the heel plate of the clutch
Exciter on the heel support of the brake accelerator

Reasoning:
The exciter on the brake stem will give brake feedback, though I am not sure what the other channel can do. Possibly the exciter on the brake stem can give front brake feedback and I can have the other channel somewhere on the seat to give rear brake feedback.

My right foot will operate the brake and accelerator with the heel going between the two so the exciter under the heel can give right channel stereo effects. Not sure what effect, possible front wheel slip.

The heel support exciter can be the left channel of the wheel slip.

Will I even feel exciters under the heels?

Any feedback welcome.
 
Feb 1, 2020
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Pedal Exciters Ideas / Thoughts

I am currently building my own pedals and rig and want to ensure I future proof regards tactile. My knowledge of tactile is from reading this and other threads on the RD forums and I think I have a reasonable grasp of the basics.

I dont have a PC yet and havent tried any tactile. My PC build will be last, no point buying a PC and having it sat idle, going out of date while I build the rig.

I will start with exciters on the seat and a BK underneath the seat. That solution is well documented and I am reasonably happy with the hardware side of things. Though I have a bit of learning to do regarding different layers of effects and what effects available.

What I would like is your collective thoughts on is what is the best way to go with my pedals. My budget is not unlimited but I will need persuading to go for BK`s on the pedals (due to the cost of the units and amps), hence thinking of exciters.

It is easy for me to isolate each pedal and make individual isolated heel supports if required.
From reading the ideas of separately isolated pedals and supports I may be the first to do this so I do understand there will be some experimentation.

My thoughts:
Isolated clutch heel support
Isolated combined brake / accelerator heel support
Isolated brake pedal

Exciter on the brake stem near my toes
Exciter on the heel plate of the clutch
Exciter on the heel support of the brake accelerator

Reasoning:
The exciter on the brake stem will give brake feedback, though I am not sure what the other channel can do. Possibly the exciter on the brake stem can give front brake feedback and I can have the other channel somewhere on the seat to give rear brake feedback.

My right foot will operate the brake and accelerator with the heel going between the two so the exciter under the heel can give right channel stereo effects. Not sure what effect, possible front wheel slip.

The heel support exciter can be the left channel of the wheel slip.

Will I even feel exciters under the heels?

Any feedback welcome.
Your approach regarding the pedals does make sense, however... do you plan on using left foot braking in the future? Naturally I was right foot braking due to how I drive my car IRL, though I've now got used to left foot braking on my rig and much prefer it and the benefits it brings. I do rarely use the clutch at the moment though. Hope that's something to consider.

I'm using Fanatec v3 pedals so can't create true separation between them without taking them apart and doing a DIY install. I've tried a couple of different isolators and they make a big difference. Still, there does seem to be a trade off between good isolation and slight movement in the pedal set under hard braking. I'm happy with where I've got to with them (fairly good isolation and only slight movement) but it does take some trial and error, or did in my case.

If you're going down the route of isolating the pedals from each other, I wouldn't see the need for large shakers like the BK's. You should get enough energy through them from much smaller units... I'd be interested to hear what others on here will recommend. Good luck with the build!
 
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Mr Latte

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Pedal Tactile / Exciters = Unknown Potential
There certainly, is potential with exciters in pedals, do not think for a moment that my recommendations mean we exclude pedals. I just see the seat more beneficial in the place to start placing effects but people's preferences differ.

Quite a few registered users of SImhub are using motors in pedals.
In fairness, nobody with experience in using the motors (via Simhub, not Fanatec) to my knowledge has compared them to the recommended exciters. I've hinted at it on the Discord channel in the past but seen nothing forthcoming. The exciters have potentially more power, more Hz range, more control, and no delays with motor rpm factors. So to me, if people are enjoying what motors can do then these exciters should be better if well enough installed and I would expect it necessary to play about with installation options to find one that works well.

Large BK In Pedals
As for large units in pedals, if you want to increase the immersion beyond the seat then yes having these in the pedals will help extend the felt immersion of effects quite dramatically. When both seat and pedals have effects deploying the low bass then the coverage over the whole body is better realized/achieved. It also is very useful for letting the user feel positional front/rear based effects in correspondence with the pedals/seat. We can also bring some nice variation to felt sensations like have (gear shift) jolt forward for downshifts and back for upshifts. Engine placement can be positioned more forward/back to suit cars with front/rear or mid-engine placements. Also high energy effects like deceleration/braking can shift energy over front-back. I had some fun with early tests with these types of ideas but are things I want my own build to employ with the tactile immersion it achieves.

How Many Large BK For Pedals Is Enough?
I'm going to use a large BK on each pedal (No Clutch) for directional effects and then 2 more large BK that goes to each L/R Pedal/Base primarily for RPM/SPEED/LONG-G.

General Thinking/Mindset Of Typical User:
Err 4x large BK in pedals that's crazy/stupid as pedals are so small. Even one large BK is massive in relation to the size of a pedal, right?

Own View/Perspective:
It's not about the energy filling only a small object/pedal region and a large BK unit deemed excessive for that or indeed even as Michal shows in his build above for the BK units energy to spread over a larger front/support section on the rig. It's about being able to deliver that best low bass energy and from various effects with it going into the user's body. Two feet/heels, are ideal contact points for directional effects energy dispersion, additional units can be used to separate mono/stereo based effects and reduce the workload of a single unit for better detailing with further increased energy potential too. Certain effects/layers could have all 4 operate at once for hi-energy scenarios and clearly x4 = better than x1 to the point that in my own builds extreme concept, a total of x10 large BK at once would be possible. How will that feel, well I'm not yet not sure but I intend to find out. :geek:
 
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Dec 30, 2019
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Brutal Deluxe: Good point about left foot braking. I intend to have a clutch and H pattern and it will be unlikely I will left foot brake in that instance. However if I ever run paddle shift then will left foot brake.
The solution would be: If I have individually isolated pedals / heel supports and an exciter / BK under the clutch and another under the accelerator, then if I left foot brake I will connect the clutch to the brake. If I use 3 pedals I will connect the accelerator to the brake. I can have quick release using something like Dzus 1/4 turn fasteners.

Mr Latte: Thank you for the words of wisdom. I will allow package space for BK units so I have the option of fitting them at a later date. It does appear the possibility of how effects are deployed to each unit and in what order / time can produce some very interesting feedback. I cant wait to get things built and get experimenting.
 
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McClusky

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Great thread!

I'm looking for advice. I have a home built sim rig that has a front section and a rear section, they are butted together but not connected. Sitting on the back section I have a Geko GS-105 G-Force seat with a ButtKicker Advance (BK4-4) mounted inside (see last pic) but I want more 'feedback' so I'm thinking about adding 4 additional transducers, one in each corner to simulate each wheel (see pic 1 and 2 for potential placement) but with how my rig is constructed I’m not sure if I will get the proper feeling from each transducer. The top board on the front and back sections are ¾ MDF. The MDF board on the front section is mounted to 2x4’s and the MDF board on the back section, where my GS-105 sits, slides back and forth (see 3rd pic) so it’s not ‘attached’ to anything.

Do you think I will get good ‘feedback’ from ANY make/model transducer(s) on my rig? I was thinking 4 Mini-LFE’s as I’m trying to keep the price down but I'm thinking they may not be powerful enough.


0526201446.png


0526201446a.png


0526201518.png


0526201448.jpg


Thanks in advance!
 
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Mr Latte

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@McClusky
Ask yourself, why are you making your tactile have direct contact in vibrating the "base platform" that leads to the pedals/seat. Instead, rather than directly mounting units to seat/pedal sections to give the seat/pedals the primary energy and detailing? As that way their energy will better go into your body regions and then isolate the seat/pedal sections from the base with ample rubber isolators or other materials from the base.

Additionally, having done similar myself to what you are considering, with an older build. With units mounted direct to the base platform their vibes will not maintain L/R but freely flow/mix over it before they reach the seat and pedals. So doing 4 corners with what you propose is kinda wasted.

The idea of a bass or stage/platform used in home cinema installations is common but do take note that its different to what we are doing here. The reason being that movie content uses only a mono based LFE output (non-directional) so we dont have to worry about crosstalk or channels mixing.

Yet with Sim racing, we are using multiple channels for individual effects or roles. So priority with installations, should be in maintaining the delivery of these effects in that they reach the user's body regions accordingly.
 
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May 27, 2020
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@MrClusky
I'm afraid your idea won't work as expected (and nowhere NEAR optimum). Reason: You need to attach the shakers as near as possible where you want to feel them and on the other hand decoupled from the rest of your structure. Example: The front shakers should be attached to your "pedalboard" (black under the V3s) from below. The black board then needs to be decoupled from the rig by some rubber spacers. This way the shaking energy is where it belongs and not moving through all your rig.

VERY important additional thing to me was that I also had to decouple the whole rig from the floor. For this I used 19mm MDF on 23 tennis balls and 60mm of sturdy PE-mat on top. The 8020 rig is now placed on top of this construction. Seems like overkill but at least in my house my (VERY understanding) wife told me that the shaking is going through the floor/walls into the rooms below. I then sat her behind the wheel just to find out what she means. It was impossible to bear. So I invested a day into this base construction and now she does not notice the rattling anymore. And I'm really turning these shakers up, I can tell you:)

It's very hard for me to describe what I used and how the construction works but I will try to at least start a documentation thread with photos that weekend.

In any way, it's not half as sophisticated as MrLatte's concepts which by the way were not only inspiring but an absolutely necessary resource on this journey:)
 

graham123

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would this be any use as a base for 2 ( front and back) transducer /butt kickers thingy's
Jet Sound JS5010 Car Amplifier
s-l1600.jpg