This idea of combining say - a buttkicker - with something like the Clark Synthesis to experience more of a full range is really interesting. What are people's thoughts purely on a combination placement of both? I don't mean super specifically but rather just 'seat, peddle, etc.'
What would a combination set up look like? Say maybe 4 buttkickers, one in each corner of the rig, and then 1 Clarke Synthesis at pedals? 1 buttkicker under the seat, or other way around? Or even both under the seat, or something different all together. I really like this idea and think if you could spend some time with the set up, you could get some very clear, accurate results.
What are people's thoughts on combination set ups and locations? What have you, or would you do?
You only have to look or ask what some guys are already using or on their way to gradually building towards. Unfortunately the whole
"Simvibe CM Vs EM Thread" did not go as planned, it was meant at the time to have "Input" from users of the various configurations and discussion based on sharing the pros/cons of EM Vs CM from a "Simvibe" perspective. People like the OP here are sometimes confused what models to get or what configuration to go for.
I raised the question of "Quality Vs Quantity" and wanted to see how the community would feel about such. They didn't really come forward and while I never really came back to this thread with my own conclusions.
Let me perhaps share some now....
Basically, (imho) for immersion, "quality" trumps "quantity".
I would say a Simvibe based cockpit using 8x Mini LFE on individual channels over 2x soundcards with 4x stereo amps would be outperformed in the enjoyment of immersion by what we could achieve using much less..........
A "Dual Role" tactile configuration operating two specific units (each for what they bring) and having these in both the seat and pedals. Covering the backside, thighs, feet and importantly, spinal regions.
Using only, 2 stereo amps and 1 soundcard.
Also costing considerably less as well.
2x BK Advance or 2x BK LFE
2x TST 239 or higher TST based models
Chassis For The Masses?
Some things I have discovered chatting or helping people over the years and feedback they have shared. Along with my own tests and monitoring.
I would say that "Stereo Effects" seem, less important to some users than the quality or performance of the felt impact. For instance, instead of feeling a Mini LFE on the left/right hand sides for front/rear individually. They prefer the added strength and immersion of more than one unit or channel being active. Also it would surprise you how many people feeling more than one channel active to not really realise they are not experiencing fully working directional stereo.
So, what if instead, the user felt no directional sensation but now we opted to give a richer and deeper bass sensation also with more detail from two units. With these applied in the seat and pedals. What will appear as more immersive?
The purpose of "Chassis Mode" is to bring stereo directional tactile sensations per wheel. It also can deliver the same effect from multiple channels to give multi-channel based sensation. If combined for the full monty using "Extensions Mode" then this allows a user to enable effects to a specific area or device (shifter).
Channel Activity
While variations/instances can be found for the operating channels, in general with multiple effects operating the rear channels mainly mimic the front stereo channels, we do not see great differences between the front and rear stereo pairs. Often a single left front wheel/bump will activate sensation in the rear right. Likewise, a right front will activate sensation in the rear left based on the telemetry data for the used axsis.
Of course both left wheels for front/rear on the grass will be felt on the left channels but we can find that some bumps will also be felt on the opposite side. This I believe is down to the operations or settings within the software and when telemetry values are generated over a "specific value" then, the effect is sent to both channels for left/right.
Directional Disappointment?
I see this also as a current issue in SSW in that some bumps for a single wheel transfer over to the opposite wheel. Yet it seems often, even rather small bumps can cause this when a larger or harder impact would be expected for such to occur. I personally find it a tad annoying as it degrades the stereo placement. It may of course also come down to variations for specific sims or cars in how this is applied. Their are so many factors here.
Channel Operation / Feel It / See It / Confrim It
Although in Simvibe I did however find improved working stereo possible when using less sensitivity. I monitored/recorded bump activity with various settings to confirm the channel activity for the stereo separation. I did not rely just on feel to determine this. The real-time channel monitoring perfectly shows the channel activity for any used or all used effects over all 8 channels.
Having my own goals I invested in hardware/software and I spent hours monitoring many of Simvibes effects in the past. Additionally, with Simvibe the amount of effects operating in actual stereo is not shared by SimXperience and if anything they give very little information on many of the effects and settings true operation. It was the lack of information and detail that lead me to do my own testing and monitoring.
Whats Working In Stereo?
For stereo operation, it appears such is reduced to the suspension effects. Even with these, high sensitivity user settings can alter or diminish the quality of the stereo separation with channel crosstalk happening as covered above. While we may want some sensation to transverse over from one side to the other, the whole point is for the user to feel distinctive directional positioning of the individual channels/wheels. So as things are it's not perfect.
Other Effects:
Some of the most active or enjoyable effects like Roadbumps are not per wheel based. To my understanding, they operate in mono over all channels being used. Damage is another that is highly disappointing as you cannot get directional damage to a single channel or directional quadrant.
Thoughts:
This then brings the point I raised, "quantity" vs "quality"
Will multiple Mini LFE outperform the immersion of better/improved units used in unison?
Therefore while Chassis Mode can bring enjoyable directional effects it does so with limitations and it certainly can come at a high price with limited increase to the overall immersion. Even then some users still prefer the added sensation of more than one unit operating and trading this for loss of stereo activity.
So really what it comes down to is that Chassis Mode can deliver "some" stereo directional effects but multiple smaller units operating with many more selected effects "working in mono" may not outperform the alternative proposed, In using two specifically selected units combined to deliver greater low-end energy and detail.
Of course such then raises the question, what if a user implements "Dual Role" in seat or pedals but then also combines it with "Chassis Mode" and even using higher-end models than the Mini LFE? Why greater than a Mini LFE you may ask? The reason is that then, the Chassis Mode individual operating channel with stereo effects, still delivers a powerful and more impactful sensation than what the smaller Mini unit can deliver.
This is what some have already done or are already on the path to doing here at RD Forums. In such cases, the user can then feel the benefits of a "Dual Role" installation but also get the directional effects they may seek after.
Own Ideas:
I still have my own idea of pushing things a bit further and using "Dual Role" over the 4 main channels. So instead of 2x Dual Role sets have 4x. This means any effects stereo or mono are delivered with the most low end and highest detail.
My aim is to install my 4x BK LFE and using 4x of the highest end TST model.
I cant install 2 better units for the overall felt tactile.
Then only having 1xTST on the Cen & Sub channels for pedals and seat. These can be used in specific ways for certain effects. So in total my vision is a 10x channel tactile configuration. Yet operating as a 6 channel. This I guess is using "more of more" but it brings its own challenges regards installation particulary for the pedals and have them all working satisfactorily to a high level of detail and immersion yet still delivering stereo activity.
However, I seek in my own build to reduce the limitations or compromises and push the boundaries of what tactile can bring. SSW has brought us the ability to create more specific effects, (building audio-waveforms) rather than Simvibes tone generation features and lack of information about their true operation. However one of the biggest advantages for me personally is proper activity happening with the front/back axis. Making acceleration and in particular deceleration and braking much more satisfying and immersive. Also the sensation of wheelslip combined with Lateral G that gives the user much more sensation of the cars handling.
(edit more detail added 15/01/18)
